The reasons we can not terraform mars. (Response to "Another problem terraforming Mars"

This thread is spun off of a previous thread, but I am unhappy with that thread's restrictions to simply the plant growing capabilties on Mars.

The original thread for reference:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The reply

"confirm that there are days that blue light gets through - clearer days. And I would think that as the environment is effected, this would began to change - moisture beginning to cleanse the atmosphere of the dust. "

Moisture can not exist in anything but a "vapor" form under such reduced pressures, it wouldn't condence and bring the dust out of the atmosphere.

"but what I am also finding is just the opposite of what is concerning you...that there will be too much radiation for the plants - versus not enough in the form of needed light. I really can't find any writings that think the light available will be a problem, but I'm finding a few on the lack of protection from radiation."

Correct, radiation is a problem, but that is in the gamma and x-ray and even cosmic radiation range.

What is discussed here is the visible range only, which is never discussed by Terraformers because frankly they are morons.

They piece together some good stuff, but stop when what shatters their hopes is present.

After-all, they think an ozone layer will save them, well funny, without our magnetic field we'd all die regardless of our ozone layer.

They don't ever take into the fact that a large reason that Mars's atmosphere is gone, is because it was blown into space by solar winds, because of a lack of a magnetosphere. Something we can not create on Mars.

They never take into account that Mars's polar caps thaw out most of the CO2 every year, so thawing those caps will not make any noticeable change in Martian climate.

They also never mention the dust storms.

A planet made of nothing but dust...

Increasing the atmospheric pressure would allow those dust storms to actually pick up larger sized particles, breaking off even larger sized pieces of rocks, inevitably creating the worst dust storms imagineable.

If Mars had an atmosphere even a quarter the thickness it is now the dust storms there would be so devastating that anything we put on the surface would be chewed to fine grains by the time it was over.

These factors are always left out by would-be terraformers who are propped up by NASA's Public Relations.

So I don't really think their lack of mentioning the problems of solar energy reaching plant-life is a sure indicator it is not a problem.

What I'd like is comparisons...or maybe I should just find some butterscotch wrapping and try some experiments of my own. Putting them in front of a slightly tinted window to try and reduce enough light so as to be as far away from the Sun as Mars is. See if a plant will grow in that light level decently.

And then see if that plant will grow in a desert as arid as the atacama, in 1/4th ATMs and periodically sand-blast it.

I would try and keep this thread focused, but the number of problems in terraforming Mars are so vast, that I feel I should really start some reasearch ahead of time to start putting terraformers in their place.

Right now, like the terraforming concept, these are just counter concepts. We of course can't really predict if dust storms would continue to occur if the atmosphere got thicker, but I see no reason why they would not, where there is dust and thermal convections you get dust storms.

Since the planet's proximity to the Sun changes once in its year, the change in temperatures would be even more dramatic probably making the storm's wind speed rise from 300 mph to near 500 mph or some un-godly figure.

Considering I've been in a 90mph wind storm, and it lifts good sized rocks off the ground, if we made Mars an atmosphere like earth, those boulders we see on Mars would become the dust storm's new fuel...we'd have to change names for the Martian Boulder storm.

And that's not bullsheissing either. Tornados throw cows sometimes miles away.

Tornados are 300 mph winds.

Dust storms on Mars are 300mph sometimes, only reason it doesn't blow the rocks like twigs is because the atmosphere is 6 millibars instead of 1100 millibars.

Again...I am not sure we have much to discuss about the plant growing problem, it is just a conceptual problem I have been thinking of. There are obviously far worse problems to be thinking about where it concerns Mars.

--------Break--------I have just decided I'm making this the first post of a new thread, because I want to expand the discussion to terraforming Mars in general.

Here is the parent thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Above is a response to another thread since this is a carry-over. Here are some basic points I want to argue with whoever thinks we can terraform Mars.

1) No magneto-sphere.

2) No geologic activity to generate atmosphere.

3) The CO2 ice caps melt twice a year (north and south once each) and so releasing all that CO2 won't change the atmosphere's density much since it doesn't anyways.

4) There is very little water on Mars that we know about. So you can't rely upon only "possibilities".

5) The Dust storms are immense now, imagine if they had an atmosphere thick enough to pick things up larger than fine dust.

6) I think the visible light reaching Mars is reduced enough by the dust to limit or prohibit plant growth.

I'm sure there are others...so guys fire away!

If that Magnetometer thing was true, then when we lose our magnetic poles in a flip, wouldn't we also be kileld off by radiation from the sun ,and also lose our atmosphere, and have it blown off into space....????

Just wondering ;P

I disagree about those dust storms. On earth are also large dust storms on the deserts but no dust storms in the other areas. When mars is terraformed there will be fewer deserts - that means fewer dust storms.

About the water - maybe there is not as much water on mars, but that planet is only 1/3 of Earth!! And not THE WHOLE polar caps are melting.

In some previous threads you compared Mars to Moon. I disagree. There was a geological activity and probably also liquid watr on Mars - something that Moon never had. Moon's gravity is too small to hold the atmosphere, but IF on Mars was sometimes liquid water, that means Mars had atmosphere able to hold the water as liquid substance. If this was possible in the past it would be possible to do it again.

Radiation : maybe ozon will be able to hold some, and maybe the people in the future will be able to create breeathable atmosphere that can hold even the EM emisions that ozon cannot.

There is no evidence that the Earth has ever lost its magnetic field. It switches periodically and the crustal splitting on the sea-floor records the intervals. I forget the reasons for the switching of the poles, but either way we'd always have a geo-magnetic field during the process.

Also the solar winds would not blow away the atmosphere instantly anyways, it'd only make a sever problem in a condition like Mars where there is less gravitational pull to hold gasses to the planet, and where we'd have to add gas faster than it's being blown into space.

Longbow the problem is that to stop a dust storm you must do 1 of several things. Either prevent high winds from starting, or prevent the dust from being picked up. To do the former you need to either alter the planet's orbit or prevent several other global factors, we can't do that. So only number two is open to us. That is by as you said, planting things and securing the soil to the ground.

Several problems.

1) The high winds will continue.

2) Before you can have plant growth you need a thicker atmosphere.

If we discuss 2 first we don't even have to worry about 1, because as soon as that atmosphere is thick enough, the dust storms would become agents of destruction and destroy any plant life you grow.

If we managed to get past that, you'd still have a global tornado, you've probably seen what a tornado does on tv or maybe you live in the mid-west. Now imagine those same winds with that same force, everywhere.

Nothing will grow simply because of that.

The only thing I can see as being fortunate is that MAYBE the dust storms are caused by global atmospheric oscillations (I'm not sure what that is fully yet but I'll look into it) and the increase in atmospheric pressure might change that natural frequency such that it no longer happens globally and so forth.

But more likely it is due to its coming closer to the Sun since that is the time when it occurs. And regional storms occur every season.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
If that Magnetometer thing was true, then when we lose our magnetic poles in a flip, wouldn't we also be kileld off by radiation from the sun ,and also lose our atmosphere, and have it blown off into space....????

Just wondering ;P

The earth's magnetosphere only weakens durring a pole shift. There is more radiation making its way to teh surface, but not enough to utterly iradiate life.

Mar's atmosphere is due to its light mass AND the radiation hitting the air. Earth does lose gases to space but very slowly and it is replenished by geological activity.

I think martian colonies will grow underground, there they have protection from radiation. Perhaps the tarraformation will begin underground by creating self sustaning subterranean ecosystems with the help of syntehtic biology.