Illegal Immigration Costs U.S. $113 Billion a Year, Study Finds

Sounds like that number is smaller than we want to admit. How can we produce that number when we don't even know for sure how many of them live here.

reply to post by chise61


VCCR does not free you from the jurisdiction of the US courts. Just informs your consulate. The only ones it would probably help is spies because then the cosulate can set up deals for prisoner exchange.

De facto laws exist because they have never been challanged. If you look you will see that there are loads of them. The Fed has the right to base their regulations based on their interpretation of the Constitution. If no body challanges then it becomes a de facto law even if they don't write it into law.

Another example is the fact that being illegal in the US is not a crime but an administrative infraction. People have a hard time with this but it's another de facto law. No where will you find that being illegal is classified as a crime or at least I couldn't find it. The only thing written down is that if you are found to have entered illegally into the US you are to be deported. No real law written just the regulation and after years of being followed another de facto law.

[edit on 9-7-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by daskakik



No it doesn't free people from the jurisdiction, but it stops them from being completely subject to the jurisdiction. You see the US doesn't have the right to to exercise authority or control, nor govern or legislate to foreign nationals without notifying their consulate. My grandchildren are subject to my jurisdiction at all times if they do something wrong in my house I am free to discipline them without notifying my son or daughter in law. Now my daughter in law's children from a previous marriage (in her mind are "foreign nationals") and even when in my house she claims jurisdiction over them and I must notify her when they do something wrong.

Another example is the fact that being illegal in the US is not a crime but an administrative infraction. People have a hard time with this but it's another de facto law. No where will you find that being illegal is classified as a crime or at least I couldn't find it. The only thing written down is that if you are found to have entered illegally into the US you are to be deported. No real law written just the regulation and after years of being followed another de facto law.

INA: ACT 275 - ENTRY OF ALIEN AT IMPROPER TIME OR PLACE; MISREPRESENTATION AND CONCEALMENT OF FACTS


Sec. 275. [8 U.S.C. 1325]

(a) Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or b oth, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) 1/ Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of-

(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or

(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.

www.uscis.gov...-0-0-332



www.law.cornell.edu...

uscode.house.gov... 0%20%281325%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20


codes.lp.findlaw.com...


There's even something for people that don't prevent the landing of illegal immigrants, and the fines for them are way stiffer.

(a) It shall be the duty of every person, including the owners, masters, officers, and agents of vessels, aircraft, transportation lines, or international bridges or toll roads, other than transportation lines which may enter into a contract as provided in section 238 , bringing an alien to, or providing a means for an alien to come to, the United States (including an alien crewman whose case is not covered by section 254(a) ) to prevent the landing of such alien in the United States at a port of entry other than as designated by the Attorney General or at any time or place other than as designated by the immigration officers. Any such person, owner, master, officer, or agent who fails to comply with the foregoing requirements shall be liable to a penalty to be imposed by the Attorney General of $3,000 for each such violation, which may, in the discretion of the Attorney General, be remitted or mitigated by him in accor dance with such proceedings as he shall by regulation prescribe. Such penalty shall be a lien upon the vessel or aircraft whose owner, master, officer, or agent violates the provisions of this section, and such vessel or aircraft may be libeled therefor in the appropriate United States court.

www.uscis.gov...-0-0-316



Edit to remove malfuctioning link

[edit on 7/9/2010 by chise61]

reply to post by chise61


Well you keep arguing it to me when I have made it sufficiently clear that you need to argue it in front of the SCOTUS or it will remain de facto law. My opinion is irrelevent and so is yours to be honest.

No matter how you or I present our defenition of "residence", "jurisdiction" or "foreign nationals" until someone forces a decision to be handed down de facto law stands.

Also I had never seen that act that you posted. So then it is official it is a misdemeanor (fine and less than 1 year jail time) but it is often treated as less by de facto. Gotta challange that and get a decision handed down if you want it to stick.

[edit on 10-7-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by daskakik


Actually you are the one who continued to argue the point, I said that we should stop going round in circles and agree to disagree awhile ago. And I have made it perfectly clear what the laws really are and that the Feds need to uphold the actual laws, not their interpretations of those laws. If the would do what they're supposed to do the states wouldn't have to do their jobs for them.

My opinion is irrelevent and so is yours to be honest.

And that is the biggest problem in this country today, the fact that they have all forgotten that they work for us and it is our opinions that are to be the relevant ones.


As long as they keep upholding their "de facto laws" states like Arizona will continue to start to uphold the actual laws. These people are commiting an actual crime when they enter this country without permission, it's on the books and someone needs to enforce it. What I don't understand is why some don't question why these laws are not being enforced on the federal level like they should be, and why some seem to care less that the citizens of this country must obey our laws or face the reprocussions of their actions while those that sneak across our border are free to break our laws and be rewarded for it

Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by daskakik

 

Actually you are the one who continued to argue the point, I said that we should stop going round in circles and agree to disagree awhile ago. And I have made it perfectly clear what the laws really are and that the Feds need to uphold the actual laws, not their interpretations of those laws. If the would do what they're supposed to do the states wouldn't have to do their jobs for them.

My opinion is irrelevent and so is yours to be honest.

And that is the biggest problem in this country today, the fact that they have all forgotten that they work for us and it is our opinions that are to be the relevant ones.


As long as they keep upholding their "de facto laws" states like Arizona will continue to start to uphold the actual laws. These people are commiting an actual crime when they enter this country without permission, it's on the books and someone needs to enforce it. What I don't understand is why some don't question why these laws are not being enforced on the federal level like they should be, and why some seem to care less that the citizens of this country must obey our laws or face the reprocussions of their actions while those that sneak across our border are free to break our laws and be rewarded for it

Actually the agree to disagree was just a handfull of post up and the thing is that I don't agree or disagree with your take on the 14th I have just pointed out where the Feds have pulled from to make their interpretation.

Where I do disagree with you is in thinking that the Feds don't have a right to make that interpretation. I agree that they work for the people but they do have the power to pass laws and procedures which can end up in defacto laws. The problem with the de facto laws is that they have not been challanged so the SCOTUS hasn't adressed the issues.

The AZ law is not trying to uphold the actual law. It just gives LEO a right to ask about citizenship. It in no way affects any enacted law or de facto law. It stands on it's own. I understand that it is in response to the failure of the feds to do something about the illegal issue but it doesn't make the feds change the way they work. In the end ICE could just uncuff them and show them the door instead of the border.

Why they are not and actually have not done anything about the issue in the past 50 years is because illegals mean tens of billions of dollars saved in labor costs. Sure this means a bigger burden on the tax payer and higher unemployment to the citizens of the nation but that is a lot of money to be let go from big businesses hands.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by daskakik]

What the hell is wrong with these protesters who think it is totally OK to ignore international law and the laws of sovereign nations, and jump the USA's borders and waltz in undetected?
There are reasons why nations recognize borders and sovereignty. Other wise you'd have guys akin to Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and any other megalomania nut job claiming territory and citizens without their consent. To do so, is called invasion and it is an act of war!

You cannot just send hundreds of thousands of people from one nation into another without that nations consent. You have to show passports, visas, and immigration papers in order to live in another country other than the one you were born in.

Vicente Fox's unwillingness to stop the flow of illegal invaders into the USA is equivalent to Castro's sending a flotilla of his unwanted dregs of society to the USA years ago.
The Coast Guard was able to stop and capture many of them before they set foot on American soil and claimed they had "rights" to be here. Which of course they didn't.

The other issue is; migrant/undocumented workers who knowingly over stay their visa's and hide in and amongst the Latino/ Chinese/ Vietnamese/ Russian and other communities. They break the law, and stay illegally. It is that simple. Illegals having babies here as a reason to anchor them needs to be stopped.
If you're not a legal citizen, then neither is your kid. We need to insist the law be changed to stop this moronic idea that anyone born here regardless of parental status is a naturalized citizen.

They are criminals. Stop pushing touchy feelgood warm fuzzies about them. They manufacture fake documents and then have the gall to say they have the same rights as a legal citizen. WTF is wrong with this picture?

Apparently there is a mindset so ignorant and backwards within the illegal invaders brain they think laws apply to everyone else but them! And apparently our own President has this same mental deficiency. He wants to give them a free pass at our expense. Interesting since there is still controversy about his own citizenship still swirling about.

The Barry O. Snob puppet show is hoping to hedge his bets that by giving amnesty, will then equate to a 2012 victory and 2nd term. God forbid! Mark my words, if he gets a 2nd term, he'll want to amend the constitution and have a 3rd and 4th until he drops.
He already assumes he's King, he would like to make it a reality. But I digress:

The reasons for giving illegal invaders amnesty makes no sense. I'd like to see these same hooligans try to jump the border of RUSSIA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, IRAN, and make the claim they have rights to be there!!!

The asinine argument that they'll do work no one else will do is crap. It is also about employers who do not want to pay a fair wage/benefits and taxes on that labor. It is about a food production and other industries that wants maximum profits off the backs of a disenfranchised slave labor force. Now there are truck drivers hauling the produce who do not have legal licenses to drive big rigs, and are undocumented workers as well. The whole system is aiding and abiding the problem we face.

How is it the living conditions in Mexico and Central America are so deplorable, and fraught with corruption that life is totally unbearable there? Why don't the citizens revolt and throw the problem politicians into jail or reform their own economies? Why don't they use their voting powers in their own countries to change it for the better?
Instead they kowtow to the criminal elements wreaking warfare and murder upon them instead of fighting back. Much of that criminal element wants to import it here and make life here a living hell. And there are those who will protest long and loud to allow them to do it...

For them that refuse to address their own problems the answer is this; they are more than willing to sneak into a sovereign neighboring nation and break the laws here. There are willing agitators and liberal leftists who are ready to permanently rip down the national borders and let a flood of non citizens into the USA unchecked and undocumented. For those of us who say; "No way in Hell are we going to accept this illegal invasion" we are then called racists and hate mongers. The US President being the first to cat call and harass the citizens of the bordering states who are fighting back.

Barry, you are a total yellow gutless turd! You are unfit to sit in the oval office. Those in the Congress and Senate who also want to ride on the Obama circus wagon, wagging your stink finger sat us, your comeuppance is coming in November 2010.

Vicente Fox, we are serving you notice...it is WAR!

The United States of America is a SOVEREIGN NATION! Something B.O. has yet to learn.

reply to post by daskakik



Actually the agree to disagree was exactly in the middle, you replied to me 4 times before I said that and 4 times afterwards. I think we have to stop seeing each other we fight too much Ok you neither agree or disagree so that woulkd make you neutral

The Feds don't have a right to pick and choose what laws they will uphold and which they will ignore they are obligated to uphold all Federal laws. Yes they do have the power to pass laws, but they haven't passed any new ones concerning this. I have already said that you are right about this problem not being brought to the SCOTUS.

It gives them the right to ask about citizenship so that they can turn them over for deportation. You're right they can just uncuff them and release them back into the country and that's the problem.

I don't think it's been this way for the past 50 years, but you may be right. And yes one of the main reasons is so that big business can profit. And this caring more about big business than about the average citizen is what's tearing this country apart.


Now hopefully we are done here because I'm really tired of going round and round with you, it gets us no place.

reply to post by chise61


Chise I ain't fighting with you just trying to clear up my point and that is that the feds are within the system in the way they do things. It may not be the smartest way or the way most americans want but they have set it up so that it's legal until they get called on it. That is the real problem. Americans have gotten so used to the idea that their freedoms were bought and payed for by their forefathers that they forget that the federal government will always try to gain more power and that they must secure those freedoms. It's good that things get said on forums and in other places but if it just ends there and no real fight is given then it really doesn't change anything.

Illegal immigration has been handled that same way for the past 50 years as far as I know. As another forum member has pointed out, it wasn't a problem until the economy went south. All that time most americans didn't worry about the illegals or their babies getting citizenship and this allowed the fed to use their interpretation of the 14th and their immigration policy without opposition. Do they have the right? Sure they do all those years of not challanging constitutes silent acquiescence.


[edit on 12-7-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by daskakik

Chise I ain't fighting with you just trying to clear up my point and that is that the feds are within the system in the way they do things.

I know, I'm not fighting with you either.

It may not be the smartest way or the way most americans want but they have set it up so that it's legal until they get called on it. That is the real problem. Americans have gotten so used to the idea that their freedoms were bought and payed for by their forefathers that they forget that the federal government will always try to gain more power and that they must secure those freedoms. It's good that things get said on forums and in other places but if it just ends there and no real fight is given then it really doesn't change anything.

I can't argue with you on any of this, it's all true.

Illegal immigration has been handled that same way for the past 50 years as far as I know. As another forum member has pointed out, it wasn't a problem until the economy went south. All that time most americans didn't worry about the illegals or their babies getting citizenship and this allowed the fed to use their interpretation of the 14th and their immigration policy without opposition. Do they have the right? Sure they do all those years of not challanging constitutes silent acquiescence.

I don't think this is entirely true. Many people were upset about illegal immigration way before the economy went South, it just wasn't as widely publicized as it is now. It's only in the public eye so much now because Arizona is taking a stand and because the government is using it as a distraction. Many Americans were worried about illegals and about their children getting citizenship, but many were not aware of just how bad the problem was. Many were not even aware of what was going on in this country, you have to remember that in today's world it's much easier for people to be aware of what's going on due to the internet and it's a relatively new thing for many to have access to a computer, I myself didn't get a PC until about 4 years ago and many still don't own one. Honestly the msm is not the best place for people to get info from these days.


One of the biggest problems we have today is the fact that we as a people have lost our voices with our government, they just don't listen to us anymore. When we try to voice our disagreement with our representatives we are labled by them as un-American, right wing extremists (in the past left wing extremist), home grown terrorists, etc. The situation in this country lately (and I'm not talking just about our present administration) makes people feel helpless, hopeless, frustrated and those feeling lead to anger. Sure there are some extremist out there, but most of us aren't we're just plain old Americans that want our country back.