Jerusalem Master Plan: Expansion Of Jewish Enclaves Across The City

US against Central and S America? LMAO now thats good. You could prob just do a southern state against them. Maybe Alabama or Noth Carolina versus Central and S America.

Originally posted by ShadowRamesses
Could it possibly go beyond the middle east? I believe their goal is in three fronts.
Middle East.
China against India
U.S. against Central and South America.
Then a fourth possibly within Europe.

Originally posted by SteveR
I really don't understand your point. Care to rephrase?

My point was simply, if we didn't cause Islam's animosity towards us by force-feeding our 'ways' on them, then why did Muslims have to travel here to attack us. Why didn't the millions of Muslims living here stage an attack? I understand your reason they are not real Muslims. But in fact I believe that supports my argument... It is a Clash of Civilizations & evolutionary advancement.

What if we all just lived by the sword and sacrifice like the Old Testament requires? Would the eastern philosophies of the world bad mouth us and call us barbaric? I would assume. But I think they would have the wherewithal to leave us alone until we showed up on their shores.

I believe they are just doing the best they know how. No need to provoke them. However, if they assert their hand in violence, we must react accordingly. But at this point I can't just say they all suck, all things consider.

I have Muslim friends that would never murder.

They are not Muslims.

So all real Muslims murder?

They are fakes and they don't even know it.

I would like to refer to them as the real Muslims, in that case.

The PRIMARY concern for a Muslim is to follow the Qu'ran, Sharia and Hadiths by the letter.

That is coming from a strict point of view. That is like an extreme christian saying you're not really christian unless you deny homosexuality and mixing races. It is a modern world that is redefining our spiritual beliefs at all cost. Those left behind are just where we used to be. 150 years ago, Slavery was normal to a god-fearing christian.

But it is what defines a Muslim, anything else is a fake. Fake like a Catholic who never goes to Church or never listens to the Pope.

I know a lot of Muslims and Christians that would passionately disagree, but I'll leave it at that.

Not really. Muslims pride themselves that the Qu'ran has never been tampered with, and is the pure literal word of God.

I've also heard Muslim claim that the Qu'ran is the oldest writing known to man. I can not fault them for ignorance. Just like you should not use their ignorance as a bold generalization.

There are no two ways to interpret commandments to behead disbelievers. Fake Muslims ignore these verses, all hundred odd of them.

You're really holding to this Fake Muslim reference. I disagree with the core of that statement, which makes it hard to find a common understanding.

The Old Testament was a pretty violent read in itself.

You are cherry picking to make a point. It was superceeded by the New Testament which is the book that Christianity is inarguably based on.

No. I think it is a fair rebuttal. I stand by it. If Islam would have allowed a New Qu'ran, would you be cool then? Because I'm pretty sure Judaism doesn't recognize the new testament.

A more valid comparison would be New Testament vs the Qu'ran. We can take a look at that.

Not valid actually. But beneficial to your argument it sure is.

I saw your post accusing Israel of being Satan incarnate, but I am too kind to bring it into the discussion against you.

I will bring it in myself. I do think Israel is evil. I think many of its effects have been cause by its own actions. They are quite literally committing the same atrocities that they use as leverage to sustain their momentum, all while hiding their true actions with propaganda. Yes, I do believe that a lot that is said about them is exaggerated by true haters, but there is enough to form an opinion of their intentions. I mean, they boast the chosen people and are not afraid to say everyone else is a gentile that is there for their use.

I believe what I believe about Islam for other reasons.

People suffer from all religions. Have you not considered that 95% of media is propagated by Jewish or Zionist outlets? You see and hear what they want you to see and hear.

The victims even ASK for this if they have committed breaches of the Sharia. Such is the power of Islam.

These are isolated cases, dude. I have Iranian friends that live here that speak of their ignorance. These people are doing the best they know how.

Tell me how "Israel will cause the deaths of millions" is more than the ruminations of a fearful mind. If you cannot provide substantial basis for this serious claim, we should just assume it is an empty suspicion.

Are you serious? They have killed hundreds of thousands already. If they had their way the entire middle east would die or bow to their knees. I work for very loose tongued Israelis (I do find endearing qualities in them and see them as indoctrinated people) that reaffirm this in many moments.

Like I said before such statements can apply to anything. I am all for free thinking but levelling a charge necessitates evidence.

Palestine prison camp is a great example. Refusal to inform US authority to the 9/11 attacks is another.

An Israeli teenage girl is a pacifist. And this is the best case against Israel. Puhleeze.

No she lives and breathes from the heart. There's a difference.

However, I do love these debates with you.

AAC

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
My point was simply, if we didn't cause Islam's animosity towards us by force-feeding our 'ways' on them

Huh? We did that when? Soon enough they will force-feed their 'ways' on us.

then why did Muslims have to travel here to attack us

I doubt they did. If they did, you will have to ask them.

Why didn't the millions of Muslims living here stage an attack?

US Muslims have staged attacks. What about the shooting in Texas last year? There are other examples. I also remember reading a letter that detailed religious reasons for taking life. You ask me about millions of Muslims when I have already made clear most western Muslims are fakes.

It is a Clash of Civilizations & evolutionary advancement.

I like the way those words can be spun into most any perspective.

But I think they would have the wherewithal to leave us alone until we showed up on their shores.

In the history of Islam they have never left others alone. The Qur'an is all about engagement and destruction of disbeleivers. Granted you can apply that to most any world power, but you seek to paint them snow white. Not the case. How do you think Islam spread towards Europe and over Africa? Not to mention in the Far East.

I believe they are just doing the best they know how. No need to provoke them.

I really can't see how that is the case. A human mind before infected with Islam has the moral compass not to stone women to death et al. What is the first thing brainwashing does? Assumes control of the moral compass. Muslims are human beings and as such do know better. It is Islam that subjugates independence of mind and morals. Islam as you know, means "submission".

So all real Muslims murder?

You are playing with words. Not all real Muslims murder, but all real Muslims condone murder if it is ordered by Allah. Most are all too ready to please.

The PRIMARY concern for a Muslim is to follow the Qu'ran, Sharia and Hadiths by the letter.

That is coming from a strict point of view.

No. That is THE point of view. Islam is quite definitive about itself. Let us agree on one thing, THE source for Islam is the Qur'an. The Qur'an states very clearly multiple times what a Muslim should do. You cannot call yourself a Muslim if the very source of Islam defines a Muslim as something entirely different. You are just using the word and mimicing some of the ritual prayers. It is a comfortable life choice for some I'm sure but it is NOT Islam.

You need to understand that the Qur'an is FAR more direct and to the point than either Bible.

That is like an extreme christian saying you're not really christian unless you deny homosexuality and mixing races.

Jesus accepted and forgave all. Anyone can be a Christian if they simply aspire to and practice Christ's values. You are really comparing Apples and Oranges. The Qu'ran and the Bibles are not the same type of books, they do not even come from the same time period or location.

It is a modern world that is redefining our spiritual beliefs at all cost. Those left behind are just where we used to be. 150 years ago, Slavery was normal to a god-fearing christian.

We have moved a bit closer to Christ's values, not further away. It is difficult to be a good Christian, because that requires peace and equality between men. It is easier to be a good Muslim, because that requires violence and herd mentality. Nothing is being redefined.

Just like you should not use their ignorance as a bold generalization.

I'm clueless as to what this pot-shot is even about. I have not generalized, I have been quite specific.

Not valid actually. But beneficial to your argument it sure is.

Another clueless pot-shot. Who decides what is valid for thought? Examine all things.

I do think Israel is evil.

I say Islam is evil you say Israel is evil. We both sound the same sometimes.

Israel is not evil. Israel is a nation state. You cannot call an entire country evil. Sheesh. Perhaps you mean the regime. I know for a fact the Israeli government has commited more kind and humane acts for man than all Arab governments combined. I do think, however, that you have a future job as the Iranian prez's speech writer.

I mean, they boast the chosen people and are not afraid to say everyone else is a gentile that is there for their use.

If they truly believed that crap why do they welcome all religions and peoples in Israel? Surely citizenship should be specific only to Jews? The religion with the highest birthrate in Israel today is Islam (by far). Think about that.

People suffer from all religions. Have you not considered that 95% of media is propagated by Jewish or Zionist outlets? You see and hear what they want you to see and hear.

No dice. My information about Islam is mostly from Muslims themselves.

The victims even ASK for this if they have committed breaches of the Sharia. Such is the power of Islam.

These are isolated cases, dude.

You slap in the face all victims.

If they had their way the entire middle east would die or bow to their knees.

Not such a bad proposition, imo. Perhaps a source on this "Israel has killed hundreds of thousands" though.

Palestine prison camp is a great example. Refusal to inform US authority to the 9/11 attacks is another.

As if the Palestinians are not holding Israelis. I dread to think of their treatment. Yes, Israel probably had a hand in 9/11. I really cannot defend that. Most countries military and intelligence apparatus commit great evils. I cannot accept that the Israeli population would of supported 9/11, so it really does not stick to them. I do however remember a video from the time of cheering Arabs.

An Israeli teenage girl is a pacifist. And this is the best case against Israel. Puhleeze.

No she lives and breathes from the heart. There's a difference.

She's still an Israeli teenage girl pacifist. All countries involved in war have had them. However, I have not seen an Israeli Kent State yet.

Now, let's count how many Hamas pacifists?

However, I do love these debates with you.

Ditto and I am glad. Personal note. Your mind is far more formidable when it is working with the truth.

reply to post by SteveR


I literally smile when I read your responses. Perhaps it is because I respect you so much, but I do believe that we see two different sides of the same coin. I do not think Islam should control the world, in fact I forbid it. From my earliest replies, I believe that the Middle east is far behind our collective consciousness and understanding, desperately trying to hold onto outdated traditions. How do we deal with these human toddlers? That is what is debatable.

I hold Israel to a higher standard, and they are failing to represent themselves accordingly.

We thought slavery was fine at one time. I believe Islam as a whole, if it survives, will grow to learn the errors of their ways, just as we have.

AAC

reply to post by Gorman91

I cannot see anything more than a bunch of suicidal superstitious fools fighting over a chunk of land because somebody'd great grand daddy may or may not have been attempted to be sacrificed to a God who, as far as I care, stopped caring about the entire matter long ago.

No, no,no don't say that, for you to say that you have to be insane yourself.

Don't call them insane, that will give me the right to call you insane.

Do you think people want to die over a small piece of land>? Are you kidding me, have you seen how much land the Palestinians lost?

Ohh wait, why should you give a damn?

You weren't the one who died under the bulldozer, now were you? Or at least it wasn't your wife, or your kid.

People are not fighting for a small piece of land, they are fighting for survival, they are fighting for their damn rights, they are fighting against oppression, aggression.

This quote says it all:
"When Injustice becomes law, Resistance becomes duty."
- T. Jefferson

People are fighting against injustice.

Just because you refuse to see the injustice doesn't mean everyone is crazy but you, it is the opposite.

Originally posted by SteveR

I have Muslim friends that would never murder.

They are not Muslims. They have no clue what being a Muslim is about. They are fakes and they don't even know it. Obviously it is a comfortable lifestyle choice for them. But Islam it is not.

Most Muslims are like everyone else in the world, they just want to get by and live their lives. They don't go about plotting how to kill infidels all the time. You are taking the attributes of the very radical fringe of Islam and applying it to all who practice that faith. Your worldview of the Islamic religion is way too narrow to apply to over one Billion people. Don't get me wrong, AQ and their ilk are very bad people, but that doesn't make the whole religion rotten as well.


[edit on 9-7-2010 by pavil]

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
I believe Islam as a whole, if it survives, will grow to learn the errors of their ways, just as we have.

I appreciate the man behind the post as always. I simply know the views you posit are undeveloped and misinformed. I would not say such unless I knew for sure.

There will be no peace in the middle east until Islam is eliminated. It will be one step towards the evolution of man. If we cannot do this by the pen, it must be done by the sword, that is because it must occur for advancement regardless. At this stage it may be better to force their hand instead of let them build strength and gain the upper hand. Our first strike in eliminating this disease could be to nuke Mecca.

Israel may be in its twilight hours, if it is lucky, the status quo tit-for-tat will continue indefinitely. Peace will not occur however you would modify Israel's behavior. A two-state solution is impractical idealism. Israel knows this. The idea that Israel's conduct toward the Palestinians is the reason for bloodshed and radicalization is simply western ignorance.

Israel must also expand. Islam controls virtually all of the middle east except for a tiny slice of the cake. It spread through conquest and bloodshed, yet it complains that Israel settled on Arab land. It was only Arab through Islamic conquest, Israel has as much right as anyone to take the land. Why is Israel's presence wrong, yet Arabs do not have enough land? Look at the proportion shared between the two. Islam will not become satiated until every patch of land on the Earth is under their control. Anyone who does not pledge fealty to Allah will be dragged out of their homes and stoned or beheaded. This much and more is ordered in the Qu'ran.

We must prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. We should take into account Pakistan already has them. That country is radicalizing at a blinding pace, there will be a #storm of epic proportions when Islamists are in control of Pakistan's nuclear contingent.

Islam is a system of laws and society dictated by Mohammed messenger of Allah. It has remained unchanged for almost 1500 years. It has been behaving according to these same parameters way before the Crusades ever occured. Islam cannot and will not learn to change the error of its ways. Islam is cold, logical and constant. It is the human beings enslaved under Islam that must change. If they cannot, we will have to muster our courage to change them by any means necessary before we no longer have the means to resist them. In which case Sharia goes global and the Earth is an irreversible failure no matter how you slice it.

[edit on 2010/7/9 by SteveR]

Originally posted by pavil
Your worldview of the Islamic religion is way too narrow to apply to over one Billion people.

Don't make me laugh. Where to start with this one. For years I have defended Muslims, personal and far away to anybody who showed the slightest prejudice. Most likely I have supported them more than you ever have. I have always made them feel welcome and comfortable. At one point I even considered converting.

Since then it has been increasingly clear to me the number 1 victim of Islam are Muslims themselves. Many people do not understand what Islam is. That is the key point. Clearly the vast majority do not see the need to dig under the surface and truly examine it. The popular view is it is a religion in the sense of religion that we westerners know, this is considered satisfactory understanding to classify critics as racists and islamophobes. It is obvious to me that you are the one with the narrow view due to your simplistic and predictable default perspective. Islam is something one needs to lucidly and innately understand, any sound mind that does so simply cannot support it the way you and most good natured people including myself do (or did).

Watch the video in my signature. If your mind is firmly attached to your own comfortable perspectives then do not bother. A closed mind that kids itself it is on the morally right side of things justifying all ignorance is a waste of time.

reply to post by SteveR


two sides of the coin.

Karen Armstrong wrote in her review of Spencer's books that he writes in hatred, deliberately manipulating evidence to support his thesis.[22]
"When discussing Muhammad’s war with Mecca, Spencer never cites the Koran’s condemnation of all warfare as an ”awesome evil”, its prohibition of aggression or its insistence that only self-defence justifies armed conflict. He ignores the Koranic emphasis on the primacy of forgiveness and peaceful negotiation: the second the enemy asks for peace, Muslims must lay down their arms and accept any terms offered, however disadvantageous. There is no mention of Muhammad’s non-violent campaign that ended the conflict."
"People would be offended by an account of Judaism that dwelled exclusively on Joshua’s massacres and never mentioned Rabbi Hillel’s Golden Rule, or a description of Christianity based on the bellicose Book of Revelation that failed to cite the Sermon on the Mount. But the widespread ignorance about Islam in the West makes many vulnerable to Spencer’s polemic; he is telling them what they are predisposed to hear. His book is a gift to extremists who can use it to ”prove” to those Muslims who have been alienated by events in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq that the west is incurably hostile to their faith."

I personally think that Benazir Bhutto was a sincerely missed leader from the region.

Former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto called Spencer a "radical intellectual" and accused him of "falsely constructing a divide between Islam and West." Regarding Spencer's blog JihadWatch, she said he uses the Internet to spread misinformation and hatred of Islam and presents a "skewed, one-sided, and inflammatory story that only helps to sow the seed of civilizational conflict."[23]

Just wanted to show the opposition of your position. Equally convincing considering. I watched the video in your signature. Very real situations, however very construed and bias. I think there is wrong in every religion. I think there is right in every religion. The public chooses to hold on to one or the other. We are fighting intellect not intent.

AAC

AAC

reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation


I don't think anyone denies there are peaceful segments of the Qur'an. For you, the presence of these verses seems to negate everything else. If you had watched the documentary closely you will know that many times these peaceful verses were over ruled in the hadiths of Islamic authorities. In Islam the last book is considered the most valid of all that comprise the Qur'an, the last book is ofcourse the most violent. It is the only book that does not start with Allah the most merciful. That is because there is no mercy in this book.

I don't think anyone denies there are people practicing the Islamic faith who are peaceful. I think that all Muslims are inherently peaceful by virtue of their humanity. Clearly humanity and all other concepts are disregarded in the totalitarian way of life intended by the book which is authentic Islam. Islam is a system that leaves no room for interpretation or free thought. Certainly there is no room to question the literal word of God, especially when such words commands blasphemers to be whipped and/or stoned. Most honest people deeply involved with Islam will tell you freely that it is a religion of total submission and justice, to them this is a sign of its divinity, to me it is a unwavering red flag.

My concern for the life of Muslims in Islamic theocratic countries is of primary importance. The sense of a threat to me personally and western civilization although very real is secondary to my humanitarian concerns. Despite that 'other side of the coin' you are able to dig up to build weight behind your skepticism, millions are still living under the shadow of Islamic brutality and mental imprisonment. I find this unacceptable. We have not cracked the lid off the humanitarian crisis in Muslim countries. There have been some brave journalists getting the word out about horrific happenings and unfortunately even some of them have been beheaded or are incarcerated in the worst conditions by Islamic authorities.

I don't think anyone denies we have world stage figures like Benazir Bhutto and even western warmongers like George Bush who proclaim Islam is a religion of peace and there is no division between it and western civilization. The agenda behind such statements is of no concern to this subject matter, but it is rediculous in the face of 1500 years of Islamic violence against the West. Bhutto was a sheltered careerist who never understood Islam or what it is like to be an Islamic woman. Afterall she did not have to live it, she never had to wear a burqa (her father shielded her from Islamic customs as a child) or submitted herself to Sharia law. Still, she paid with death for breaking every rule of the book.

Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevic were among others on the world stage who warned about the dangers of "radical" Islam and tried to contain it. The western populace was sold on a pack of lies as it is clear that the Hussein government and "radical" Islamists including terror groups like Al Qaeda were mortal enemies. Neither man fit in with the globalist agenda and were ultimately disposed of. It is "radical" Islam or more accurately authentic Islam that is spreading like wildfire through the middle east, south east asia, sub-saharan africa and europe. Taking out Hussein and Milosevic only accelerated that process. Now in the lands those two men once ruled Sharia is growing exponentially. We could of nipped it in the bud in Sudan but instead turned a blind eye for the sake of political correctness and in doing so have allowed millions of men, women and children of African heritage to be killed in their villages. We call the Russians terrorists and violators of international law for trying to nip it in the bud in Chechyna.

It is obvious we live in a society that seeks only to appease Islam and millions are paying for that with their lifes, limbs and minds. It is opinions like yours that would only prolong this suffering.

You have heard from scholars and even a former member of a Palestinian terror group, yet you call all this "very construed and biased". Someone is biased in that equation, but it is not him. Their conclusions were heavily supported with an array of Qur'anic verses and historical facts, whereas your counter argument contained none. Karen Armstrong's assertion that Islam and Christianity only contain "surface differences" is laughable, so is her claim that radicalism is a response to contemporary culture. I guess history is not her strong point. Turning a blind eye is a required ingredient for this 'other side' of the coin you speak of. It is basically wishful thinking, afterall I suppose for some it is hard to believe that millions are living under barbaric conditions in the name of Islam as we speak.

I would like to hear more about Muhammed's non-violent campaign. I find it hard to believe someone who beheaded 900 Jews and wiped out entire Jewish tribes believed in non-violence. Perhaps you have an explanation, however I would rather embrace the facts. It is a Quranic law that Muslims are allowed to embrace peace if it is strategically appropriate, but only until they have the upper hand. Thus it enshrines deception, which seems to be a common theme these days. I think you are being played and because it appeals to your good nature you are easily controlable.

[edit on 2010/7/13 by SteveR]

Originally posted by SteveR

I don't think anyone denies there are peaceful segments of the Qur'an. For you, the presence of these verses seems to negate everything else.

Or I would rather to only focus on the peaceful aspect. Just as I only focus on the peaceful particulars of Christianity. There is a book titled, Life of PI, where the child character is influenced and interested in all major religions and is mentored by heads of each of these sects. When they find out that he is sharing his time amongst them they urge him to choose. Choose he does not, though he does teach them a valuable lesson about the good in all of them.

If you had watched the documentary closely you will know that many times these peaceful verses were over ruled in the hadiths of Islamic authorities.

Question the source/authority.

In Islam the last book is considered the most valid of all that comprise the Qur'an, the last book is ofcourse the most violent. It is the only book that does not start with Allah the most merciful. That is because there is no mercy in this book.

Spencer claims that since the violent passages come later than the peaceful ones they must trump the earlier. Is that Universal? Jews do not think the New Testament supersedes the old testament, does it? It is a matter of choice in my opinion. What makes them more sacred?

I think that all Muslims are inherently peaceful by virtue of their humanity.

Very much agreed.

Clearly humanity and all other concepts are disregarded in the totalitarian way of life intended by the book which is authentic Islam. Islam is a system that leaves no room for interpretation or free thought.

Early christianity was also described in this manner. I contend that Islam is a barbaric religion that has not yet realized it was intended for barbarians.

Most honest people deeply involved with Islam will tell you freely that it is a religion of total submission and justice, to them this is a sign of its divinity, to me it is a unwavering red flag.

Agreed.

Despite that 'other side of the coin' you are able to dig up to build weight behind your skepticism, millions are still living under the shadow of Islamic brutality and mental imprisonment.

What do you see as an adequate solution?

Bhutto was a sheltered careerist who never understood Islam or what it is like to be an Islamic woman.

Another perspective is that she focused on the good and attempted to modernize it.

Still, she paid with death for breaking every rule of the book.

Martin Luther King had to die to boost Civil rights. These events are cyclical and necessary to evolve to heart.

Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevic were among others on the world stage who warned about the dangers of "radical" Islam and tried to contain it.

I liken Saddam and his secular attitude towards authentic Islam as western elitists to christianity. Stifle radical christians but do not kill christianity completely. However, I do think Saddam was good for the region. True, he led with an Iron fist, but sometimes that is the only way to control barbarians.

It is opinions like yours that would only prolong this suffering.

I am just not willing to sign up for 'kill them all' tactics.

Someone is biased in that equation, but it is not him.

Why not him? Truth always has two sides. You've chosen your as I have chosen mine. Which makes these discussions hard because we are correctly defending the position we are standing firmly on top of.

Their conclusions were heavily supported with an array of Qur'anic verses and historical facts, whereas your counter argument contained none.

Not really, I did not want to go through each of his positions and point out how he was constructing his position subjectively. I can just say, he was stitching his point with convenient truths that are not universally negating my points. Moreover, I do not have the time or patience to put together such an illustration to support my portion of the 2-sided truth.

I would like to hear more about Muhammed's non-violent campaign. I find it hard to believe someone who beheaded 900 Jews and wiped out entire Jewish tribes believed in non-violence.

How about Pope Urban II and his Crusades? He told christians to murder the demonic race and that GOD through him will forgive their sins. It is what it is, always.

I think you are being played and because it appeals to your good nature you are easily controllable.

Played I am not. Malleable I am always, however your argument has fundamental flaws. The alternative nature in you makes you just as controllable.

AAC

reply to post by SteveR


We don't know each other save for the comments we make here. You viewpoint seems to cast all Muslims with the same broad brush. Do you do the same with Christians? I don't discount that there are violently radical segments of Islam and that Islam overall is not very accepting of other religions when compared to other religions. That all being said, there are still hundreds of millions of Muslims that are pretty normal average day men and women. You seem to want to exterminate all Muslims.......that is very troubling to me.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Or I would rather to only focus on the peaceful aspect.

It is more important to focus on the violent and subjugative aspect. This is the aspect that is negatively effecting the state of the world. The peaceful aspect of Islam is negligable all things considered.

If you had watched the documentary closely you will know that many times these peaceful verses were over ruled in the hadiths of Islamic authorities.

Question the source/authority.

The behavior of Islam is a known quantity. I do not need a source for that. The testimony in the video is backstory, it is authentic and it fits.

Spencer claims that since the violent passages come later than the peaceful ones they must trump the earlier. Is that Universal? Jews do not think the New Testament supersedes the old testament, does it? It is a matter of choice in my opinion. What makes them more sacred?

I don't think that was his individual claim but a comment on Islamic culture. Let us assume Islam has no divine inspiration and is an engineered self-replicating thought virus. Mohammed formulated his plan to gain popularity with overtures of peace that slowly over time turned sour and violent as his real intent became viable for indoctrination. I think the last word of Mohammed carries a great deal of weight. Judeo-Christian holy books have a multitude of authors and sources. The Qur'an is written of the teachings of one man. Islam 101...

Despite that 'other side of the coin' you are able to dig up to build weight behind your skepticism, millions are still living under the shadow of Islamic brutality and mental imprisonment.

What do you see as an adequate solution?

Eliminate the system. I do not think it is possible to do with the pen. That leaves the sword. It takes courage to realize you cannot always implement your ideal solutions. I've written more thoughts on a solution in the post above my response to pavil.

Bhutto was a sheltered careerist who never understood Islam or what it is like to be an Islamic woman.

Another perspective is that she focused on the good and attempted to modernize it.

If so, she was still sheltered and never lived the life of an Islamic woman under Sharia as many millions are. Not a genuine spokeswoman, too easy for her to turn a blind eye.

True, he led with an Iron fist, but sometimes that is the only way to control barbarians.

It may be our only way. If Saddam could of changed the radical section of his populace by the pen he would of done it. He was suprisingly intelligent and articulate.

I am just not willing to sign up for 'kill them all' tactics.

Imagine a world that is lost to barbaric culture and untold losses in human progress and happiness that is directly a result of such unwillingness.

Someone is biased in that equation, but it is not him.

Why not him?

Because he is an intelligent and genuine individual who has more life experience under authentic Islam than everyone on this board put together. I did not find his testimony to be tainted with bias.

Which makes these discussions hard because we are correctly defending the position we are standing firmly on top of.

Thank you. It is hard, but it is not personal, it is my selfless concern for others that is paramount here. It is inhumane to sideline these truths for a politically correct peace.

Not really, I did not want to go through each of his positions and point out how he was constructing his position subjectively.

If you can convincingly support the Qur'an from a pro-peace position please do so. You would be the first person I've seen to do so.

Moreover, I do not have the time or patience to put together such an illustration to support my portion of the 2-sided truth.

You have already convinced yourself it is two sided. You are not free thinking, you are thinking under self-imposed contraints in the name of idealism. Islam is not a religion of peace just as the world is not in an ideal condition.

How about Pope Urban II and his Crusades? It is what it is, always.

There is truth in these words "It is what it is.", but it is not what you assume. The crusades were reactionary to protect the safety of pilgrims visiting holy lands. There is several hundred years of history of Islamic violence against Christian pilgrims before the first crusade even began.

Played I am not.

Played you are, you quoted a woman full to her neck in bull# to somehow refute everything presented in the video. Even Islamists would side with me on that one.

however your argument has fundamental flaws.

I have not seen a single one yet. My wider argument is a mandate to hear the millions of unheard victims. They are made to suffer for the sake of peace with Islam. Many more will suffer in the future if our position does not change.

The alternative nature in you makes you just as controllable.

The difference between us is you spout a popular line, I think for myself regardless where it leads and I have examined many angles along the way. If I had the patience and time to look, I bet I could not find a single post of yours supportive of Israeli rights.

Originally posted by SteveR

The difference between us is you spout a popular line, I think for myself regardless where it leads and I have examined many angles along the way. If I had the patience and time to look, I bet I could not find a single post of yours supportive of Israeli rights.

Why would I look for the good in satan? Is it not just a mask to disguise the true nation of their evil?

White man is evil. Black Man is evil. Olive man is evil. Spirit is pure. I can see your thoughts on this thread are derived from man. There is more riding from dying for what spirits believes than living for what man concludes.

I see all your points, and could easily fall into them and love them, but my spirit urges me to refrain. You could easily say it is my ego or ignorance that urges, but it is my spirit that cultivated such ego and ignorance.

I just think it would be possible with the pen if the westerners didn't profit from the sword. It falls into their plans to perceive it as such.

AAC

[edit on 13-7-2010 by AnAbsoluteCreation]

Originally posted by pavil
You seem to want to exterminate all Muslims.......that is very troubling to me.

I say eliminate Islam. That is very different to saying exterminate all Muslims even if it is the end result.

reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation


You know that I respect and have learned from your independence of mind. I never expected to convince you, my only intent was to put my thoughts forward. I enjoy discussing pretty much everything with you, but I would be lieing if I said the humanitarian plight did not concern me deeply. Certain things must be overcome if the sum total of this world is to improve. We can't aid that process by ignoring problems. I know that I will always be proactive and vigilant in engaging them.

reply to post by SteveR


Who knows what the future will do to our thought.

AAC

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
I just think it would be possible with the pen if the westerners didn't profit from the sword. It falls into their plans to perceive it as such.

I would fight them afterwards. Western civilization is a very poor substitute but remains a lesser evil imo.

Originally posted by Jewcano
If there is a Jewish master plan, it involves economic growth and developing a nurturing and sustainable infrastructure within the established borders of Israel.

Agreed. Israel is a tiny country, too small to be the home of an entire culture. The Arabs need to yield land and vacate Palestine as a peace gesture. Shouldn't be a problem since most Middle Eastern countries are only too willing to help them at great expense. They should easily be rehomed. Their culture covers almost all of the region, they do not need every square inch on which to practice it.

Of course anyone with a brain knows the real reason they do not want peace with Israel. Clue: he's holding it in his left hand.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/d1749ab7967dedd5.jpg[/atsimg]

Fighting has been prescribed for you, but it is of dislike to you. And it may be that you dislike something while it is good for you; and it may be that you love something while it is bad for you. And Allah knows while you do not know. - Surah 2:216

reply to post by SteveR


I wholeheartedly disagree. This sentiment is like saying, let's get rid of Texas. Those lousy Americans have 49 others states. What about the proud Texans?

I see the true generalization of Arabs in these posts. Very simple.

AAC

[edit on 16-7-2010 by AnAbsoluteCreation]