I agree that the Universe is ever expanding and very, very large but not infinite. It just seems infinite from our perspective.

Beyond the frontier of matter and dark matter there is no wall, only nothingness or emptiness.

I'm not sure about this, but my understanding is that light causes the universe to expand, so where the light goes space is created. But perhaps the universe is already a finite amount and it is just objects appearing to move into this previously uninhabited portion of space.

I wonder why you are talking only about the "expanding cosmos" theory? that does'nt explain or unswer if the universe is finite or infinite at all. can you imagine a gigantic huge sphere?, now imagine our universe inside it, that universe can be expanding inside that "finite space room"!
this is a exemple only.

nobody sayed nothing about the macro micro cosmos theory, pitty, i think it is the best explanation for the topic question.i am googling yet about it, but nothing good till now, and i cant "scan" buddhist books" to explain to you. hopefuly some one finds a good link to this subject.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Beyond the frontier of matter and dark matter there is no wall, only nothingness or emptiness.

The problem is, if there were truly nothingness or emptiness beyond the frontier of matter and dark matter, then the universe doesn't exist. No matter how you look at it, there has to be something for there to be something else. It doesn't make sense scientifically, logically, etc.

This is what is most confusing. How can there not be some sort of end point?

Originally posted by I See You
It is said that the universe never ends in all given directions. This is mind boggeling. How can something go on without an end? And if it does end....what is there a wall? What's on the other side of the wall. Do you get my meaning?

Day-to-day reason struggles desperately with notions like "all" or "nothing", especially as magic mathematics come in. Accordingly, some level of abstraction is required to handle these notions properly.

Example:

Is there a set of all sets?

Or:

How many integers between 0 and 1?
How many natural numbers?
How many odd numbers?

All infinite? Yes

All denumerable? No

Set of real numbers between 0 and 1 MORE POWERFUL than set of natural numbers but set of odd numbers AS POWERFUL as set of natural numbers although "intuitively" appearing to be half as powerful.

Interestingly, any set, whether infinite or finite, can be denumbered by 1.
Looking at it more closely it appears that the Cartesian Product of 0 and oo just yields 1.

Converted to day-to-day reason: it is not that "everything is nothing" but that the TOTAL multiplication of NOTHING yields something (or: total negation vs. negation of totality).

Serious even more amazing question arises: what is 1?

Mathematically (abstract) spoken it means that there is NO WAY to know what 1 is (not to mention 2, 3, pi, e, etc.).

Having said that, it appears obvious that physical questions about universe rely to some fundamental extent on level of abstraction AND capability to retransform to quantitas materiae...


Anybody interested in closer look pls do not hesitate to request it at ty@AhlAlBait.com


Take care of 1, T.Y.

How can something go on without an end?

Walk until you get to the end of the Earth.... What? There is no end? Ahh...so now you see....

Eventually, you'll just be back where you started....

Let's assume the universe is finite in size. Let's assume it ends at a certain point. There is still an infinite expanse of nothingness beyond those limits. No matter what science tells us about the limitations of our physical universe, there is always something beyond those limitations, even if it's just nothingness. You can't define the boundaries of the universe, and then at the same time claim that there isn't infinite nothingness (atleast) beyond those boundaries. It's impossible. So in that sense, it is infinite in expanse.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Beyond the frontier of matter and dark matter there is no wall, only nothingness or emptiness.

The problem is, if there were truly nothingness or emptiness beyond the frontier of matter and dark matter, then the universe doesn't exist. No matter how you look at it, there has to be something for there to be something else. It doesn't make sense scientifically, logically, etc.

This is what is most confusing. How can there not be some sort of end point?

Because there has to be atleast nothingness beyond the end point. I mean really think about it. Assume the universe is like an egg shell, with a finite boundary. The egg shell either has to be infinite in thickness expanding forever outwards, or there has to be infinite nothingness beyond the eggshell, or there has to be something else beyond it. Those are the only three possibilities. So no matter what, there's something beyond the boundary of the physical universe, even if it's just nothingness.

[edit on 14-6-2004 by AceWombat04]

I agree that there is "infinite nothingness" beyond the boundaries of the expanding Universe.

Jamuhn:
Thx for suporting us the link that is it! im trying to find a link from a buddhist scholl, but that one is better because it's not related to anykind of "religion", thx mate

you wrote:
"I don't really understand how it accounts for expansion and universe structure though, maybe you could explain that part... "

i can explain to you what the buddhist theory says:

as you can see in that links, according to that theory all the "things" in the universe can be atomic and sub-atomic particles. folowing that idea a single universe can be like a molecule of a gigantic "Thing"/object or aorganic life form.so a group of "universes" can actualy be part of "something" imense/huge.. so if you racionalize that theory and start to think in a "atomic" way, do you realize that every particule exists in a especific "universe", where a certain amount of "expanding" is alowed. althou that expanding sure have a limit, a especific range distance in that small universe where the particules can't expand more due to phisyc laws/forces/energys/ect.
a better example:

as you know the atoms in a mulecule "vibes"/shaken in a certain velocitie, now compare that to a cluster of galaxies(imagining the cluster is a molecule, and the galaxies are atoms) the galaxies have a huge possible distance where they can move/or "vibrate" but that distance have a limit , or they will "leave" the molecule, althou in cosmic measures that its a huge possible range.
folowing this theory we will notice that each universe is "finite", because it's matter can't go further after a certain point. but if we think in all the possible universes as "one", then the universe is infinite. because after each universe a new kind of "matter" will start, over an over! exemple: you are a small atomic voyager, and you start your trip in a atom of a "blood cell" some where in a dog, if you go always in the same direction, you will pass over diferent universes(diferent kinds of teciues/organs/etc.), untill you evenctualy exit the dog body, now you are in the "atmosphere universe", and you will have always somewhere to go, if you go always in the same direction.get it?
for me that theory its just lovely, and besides the fact that it can be of extreme dificultie to understend, it makes some kind of sence.

cya


[edit on 14-6-2004 by kangaxx]

[edit on 14-6-2004 by kangaxx]

I've always been fascinated by the double standard that doesn't support an infinite universe, but willingfully accepts infinite nothingness instead....

Don't get me wrong, I agree, but only on the lack of any other plausible idea within our comprehension....

Originally posted by Gazrok
I've always been fascinated by the double standard that doesn't support an infinite universe, but willingfully accepts infinite nothingness instead....

Don't get me wrong, I agree, but only on the lack of any other plausible idea within our comprehension....

Perhaps it would be better explained this way...

You cannot create nothingness, as nothingness is the absence of something or a void. But you can create something and that something will always be finite just as we are all finite.

However vast, the Universe is finite just as the being who created it, however very highly evolved, was also finite.

Hence, you can have a finite Universe and an infinite void of nothingness that surrounds it.

[edit on 14-6-2004 by Paul_Richard]

The universe might as well be a sphere. That's the only way we, humans, can comprehend infinite.

Hey guys,

I've been reading the post and I've only come across one person who's even mentioned Dark Matter. Which, from my studies, is said to the the one factor thats generating this expansion.

Another thing...I'm a big fan of symantics and I have a problem with Nothingness. Even as we discuss the word we assign it substance. I'm not talking in a supernatural way. I mean to say that even nothingness is somethingness.

And another thing...We assume to much when we say that our universe is the only universe there is. It could be that some cataclysmic event from another universe seeded the birth of our own. And, it could be that we're expanding into the substance of this other universe now. I know it sounds farfetched but really! Before we try to tackle this problem in any kind of sincere way we're going to need new physics and new mathematics. Obviously the science we're working with today is only leading us in circles.

BTW I love the Buddhist theory thingie!

Adian

I think somethingness is infinite though I think nothingness shouldnt be a word because there is allways something. Therefore I would think our universe has no boundaries. If nothingness vs. something, something would win because something has something to show for it and nothingness would have nothing to take on something. Actually nothing means something that has no existence.

Wouldnt that prove nothingness is not infinite and that something is infinite.

I, personally, feel that our universe is finite. I feel that it is a 4 dimensional object which exists within at least a 5 dimensional space. Humans, in our limited 4th dimensional existence, will naturally have trouble understanding this 5th dimensional space. I believe that outside of this 4 dimensional space, that there is a 5th dimension (i.e., the "superspace" that some have referred to). What is this 5th dimension? I have no idea, but it is unlimited in terms of the 4 known dimensions. Is it truly unlimited? Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to say with a 4 dimensional mindset.

What is at the edge of our 4 dimensions? I would guess a very real barrier, the likes of which mankind has never witnessed. Probably a weird perversion of time and space as we know it.

I think the end of time can be reduced to a combination of two ideas. Thermodynamics will reach equilibrium, which will end the vast majority (if not all) of our known energy sources, and gravity will pull us all back to where it (roughly) all began.

The end of space, for me, is a little more difficult than that. Since it's commonly accepted that it's impossible to truly exceed the speed of light in a 4 dimensional model, and light has a LOOOOONG head start on us, we won't ever make it to the edge of our space without entering this theoretical 5th dimensional space. If we tried to approach this border as it was receding (near the end of time, after the universe begins crunching), we'd probably meet with something bordering on infinite gravity pushing us away from the border, and tons of matter resisting our approach as it is all pulled back to the center.

Think of it as being cosmically carried on the waves of the ocean, without significant internal propulsion of your own. The water represents our universe, the earth represents a 5th dimension. The water washes upon the earth and recedes, even though there is a tangible edge to the water, you could never escape it on your own, or only using water based propulsion methods, unless you could exceed the speed of the water's flow.

What would you reach if you could escape the tide? The earth, of course; the substance on which the water ebbs and flows. In the astrophysical model, the earth represents the 5th dimension, the properties of which I have no idea. I would say there's an additional media that we exist on, and an additional power source driving our universe, tho.

So, I would say, the "wall" on the edge of our universe is a 5th dimensional border.

This probably raises more questions than it answers, but that's my idea of the known universe.

--Just1Man

**edit: guh. proofreading. . .**

[edit on 15-6-2004 by Just1Man]

Because there has to be atleast nothingness beyond the end point. I mean really think about it. Assume the universe is like an egg shell, with a finite boundary. The egg shell either has to be infinite in thickness expanding forever outwards, or there has to be infinite nothingness beyond the eggshell, or there has to be something else beyond it. Those are the only three possibilities. So no matter what, there's something beyond the boundary of the physical universe, even if it's just nothingness.

You blended the words something and nothing, which you can't do. Nothing is the opposite of something. So how can there be something if there's nothing? If there is truly nothingness beyond the boundary of the physical universe, then it's not something.

Now, if you said instead there was just black space out there, no light, no time, but it was still a state of existance, that would be different. But to use the word nothing states that there is no existance whatsoever. Not even "black space."

So if you think about it, there is only one possibility, and that there is something outside the boundary of the universe. Even if you say the universe is expanding, it still needs to have something outside of it to expand onto. Nothingness is nothingness.

I think that other guy who posted on this thread said it the best. We can hardly imagine something having no end, but we can't fathom something having an end either.

Damn, this stuff murders your brain!

So what created the space in which the universe is expanding into and how big is that space, and does that space have an end it have an end? The more I think about this stuff the more I belive nothing really exists at all lol.

Big bang seems to only theorize about how the current galaxies started matter etc.. came to exisist and not what the big bang exploded into which had to be emptyness or something. And what created the stuff that created the big bang?