“All I saw in Israel was cowards with guns”

reply to post by Peruvianmonk

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by Eliad

 

It purports to show the killing of Furkan Dogan. This may or may not be the moment.

Either way he is dead. Murdered.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by Peruvianmonk]

I don't get it.. Are you guessing now? How do you know this shows the killing of Furkan Dogan?
This may or may not have been the moment?
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
You've shown me a video as proof that he was killed point blank, shot 4 times to the head.
How does this prove anything?
Look, I feel uncomfortable talking like this about a dead person..
But seriously, this video is a big fat lie, and now that you know it you just shrug it off, like you don't care.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

I wouldn't call it "murder" unless that is the video. If that gun was fired, it murdered someone. It is an FAL, i think. High power, single shot. Not made for close quarters at all (they should have had a bullpup/SMG). Bad weapon choice, and deadly at that range. I wouldn't shoot that weapon at that range for fear of ricochet killing me.

Regardless, if that isn't his death, then i would call it "wrongful death", as the soldiers were following what they believe to be lawful orders (regardless of the BBC report about it not being a lawful blockade).

This is not a FAL, my friend, as you can clearly see there is no mag and no slot for a mag.
This is a military grade paintball gun. I've provided a photo a few posts up.
Or just google image search military paintball guns. You'll instantly recognize it..
Plus there were no 5.56 found on any of the bodies.

Originally posted by smurfy
This is from the BBC regarding the blockade, you will see that there has been no published blockade list from Israel, which is a requirement in International law. You will also see that the agenda for the blockade is further reaching than just stopping possible arms getting through, it is a slap on the wrists of Gazanians because Hamas does not recognize Israel, how childish is that?

news.bbc.co.uk...

It's not that, it's for the hamas not allowing the red cross to see their prisoner of war.
And the weapon smuggling is a big part of it trust me.
Still, collective punishment is not the way to go I agree..
Even so, all the supplies that they've been getting through see are being provided to them by way of israel or egypt, this is not why hamas wants this blockade off...

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by Eliad

 

It purports to show the killing of Furkan Dogan. This may or may not be the moment.

Either way he is dead. Murdered.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by Peruvianmonk]

I wouldn't call it "murder" unless that is the video. If that gun was fired, it murdered someone. It is an FAL, i think. High power, single shot. Not made for close quarters at all (they should have had a bullpup/SMG). Bad weapon choice, and deadly at that range. I wouldn't shoot that weapon at that range for fear of ricochet killing me.

I downloaded the video and stepped through that part frame by frame. It's definitely NOT an FAL. Too short, buttstock is all wrong (it appears to have a 4 or 6 position collapsing stock, like an M-4, straight-line, no drop like a FAL has) the reciever is all wrong for an FAL (way too small), as well as the barrel (that one looks like a stainless tube) and the muzzle device is WAY too short for an FAL. Handguards look like a short, cylindrical affair, rather than the longer squarish-triangular FAL guards.

Barrel between the handguards and the muzzle cage is way too long for either a FAL, an FNC, or even an M-4.

You can see the buttstock and the collapse lock on it best when he raises it back to horizontal. No muzzle flash at all, and no recoil either (trust me, an FAL has a little recoil - that's why the British SLR version is only semi-auto) so, either no shots fired, OR they were propelled by something other than gunpowder.Didn't look like an FN weapon at all, neither FAL nor FNC.


[edit on 2010/6/9 by nenothtu]

Pix, for EvolvedMinistry, so that it DID happen!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0c3b98ea7b2d.jpg[/atsimg]
Eliad's military paintball gun.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5911450de8d1.jpg[/atsimg]
Marmara 'gun', showing barrel and fore end.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3b2903d852cf.jpg[/atsimg]
Marmara 'gun', showing buttstock and collapse lock.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/07a533ec924d.jpg[/atsimg]
FAL (British version).


In the second Marmara picture, you can clearly see the slide lock lever on the butt stock. In the first, you can see 1) the visible barrel is longer than on an FAL (proportional to the over all length of the gun), but consistent with the paintball gun - including the color (shiny things are not very tactical, and so are generally avoided in combat armaments), 2) the fore end is shorter than on an FAL, but again consistent with the paintball gun, 3) the flash supressor is shorter than on an FAL, but neither is it consistent with the birdcage on that model of paintball gun.

Most of the police model pepper ball guns around here have a shiny barrel like that, because they WANT it to be seen, so that they hopefully don't have to put it to use.


[edit on 2010/6/9 by nenothtu]

reply to post by Peruvianmonk

Bogus story!

Ask any Marine, there are former Marines, but no "ex-US Marines".

reply to post by Eliad


It's quite simple Eliad. I entered the video that 'purports' to show the commandos murdering the guy. Someone who was involved with the convoy is claiming that this was the moment that Furkan Dogan was killed. I am taking them at their word.

Little different to taking the Israeli video's released as gospel, which so many members have. The only difference is that Israel have a long histroy of witholding and distorting the truth when it comes to such matters. No Western journalist could even get in to Gaza during Operation Cast Lead.

To my untrained eye in video they appear to be unoading shots at someone on the deck as well as kicking him on the floor.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


As I said, I can see the kicking, but if you've ever seen a gun fired you can easily tell, even with an untrained eye, that the gun was not fired. Further more we have established that this is a paintball gun, and have shown pictures of it.

The difference between stories, and rumors and photos and videos is a big big difference.
If you are not willing to see it as proof, the least you can do is doubt the stories that you've heard, as they are not backed up by any proof.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by Peruvianmonk

 

As I said, I can see the kicking, but if you've ever seen a gun fired you can easily tell, even with an untrained eye, that the gun was not fired. Further more we have established that this is a paintball gun, and have shown pictures of it.

The difference between stories, and rumors and photos and videos is a big big difference.
If you are not willing to see it as proof, the least you can do is doubt the stories that you've heard, as they are not backed up by any proof.

LOL!!!

Not backed by proof??? How about 9 dead bodies and 20 injured??? Is that proof enough that they used guns??? But, I guess that paintball guns are now killing people if you shoot them at point blank range!!!

Watch the puppet dance...In a minute, he will again wholeheartedly try to defend the indefensible position. I have to give you credit, even with the beating you've taken incessantly by everyone who has common sense and intellect, you're still holding on like a cartoon (coyote and roadrunner much???). Keep swingin' in the dark waiting for it to all make sense...aren't ya??? Maybe ACME will make something that finally works...RIGHT???

Oh dear...This would be disturbing if it wasn't so funny.

By the way, send me pics of you reading and responding to this post...OR, it never happened!!!

[edit on 10-6-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by signal2noise

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Your links are about as worthless as your posts. Your information is Fox News worthy at best, and even they are backing up the international community.

You have links to rawstory and salon; neither of which are bastions of journalistic objectivity. I doubt they are even "Fox News worthy".

Yeah, I guess the AP is tabloid stuff now. How about Huffington Post??? Yep...I guess the AP which supplies RawStory and every other media outlet their news is simply lacking ANY journalistic integrity.

Bastion...I love that word. Did you have to use the Thesaurus for that one???

Bye NOW!!!

[edit on 10-6-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Yeah, I guess the AP is tabloid stuff now. How about Huffington Post???

Rawstory, Salon and even the Huffington Post have a certain "slant" to their stories. If you don't think they have an agenda, you're deluding yourself.

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Yep...I guess the AP which supplies RawStory and every other media outlet their news is simply lacking ANY journalistic integrity.

I have no trust for any news organization. I think they all pitch their stories one way or another.

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Bastion...I love that word. Did you have to use the Thesaurus for that one???

Nope, but I bet you had to use an dictionary to look it up.

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


LOL

we were talking about something else entirely!!!!! you werent even reading it LOL!!!

we were talking about the video and the lie that he was shot in the video
AND YOU THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE GUNS LOLOLOLOL

oh and by the way, the only live weapons they had were pistols, not guns so you are the one who is defending the indefensible LOL

LOLOL now you're going to get all pissed off and whine about how all I say is lies just because you can't defend your indefensible position!!!!!!! LOOOOOL

JUST CANT WAIT TO SEE WHAT YOU WRITE NEXT!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL

With much love to all,
And a LOL in my heart,
Eliad.

PS-
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!11

Some new footage from the activists on the Mavi Mamara. Watch the whole video.

Quite shocking and surreal. You can hear the Israeli gunfire and see the subsequent casulties.

vimeo.com...

Do these people look like #ing terrorists?

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Some new footage from the activists on the Mavi Mamara. Watch the whole video.

Quite shocking and surreal. You can hear the Israeli gunfire and see the subsequent casulties.

vimeo.com...

Do these people look like #ing terrorists?

When someone actually finds any 'new' footage, especially if they can manage to find any that supports the contention that Israelis attacked peaceful protesters first, please let me know. This wasn't it.

The only thing 'new' in this clip I could see, that hasn't been posted before, was the shot of the guy actually firing at the helicopter with the slingshots that the Israelis allegedly 'planted' (I guess that shot sort of gives the lie to that notion), and two muslims at prayer, and apparently using a gas mask for a qibla. Neither of those indicates in the least that the Israelis went in hot and unprovoked.

reply to post by Eliad


oh and by the way, the only live weapons they had were pistols, not guns so you are the one who is defending the indefensible LOL


If this is true it pretty much confirms the "execution" theory...

The majority died from "HEADSHOTS"

Given the inaccuracy of pistols, in normal circumstances a shooter would aim for the body....NO ONE WILL DISSAGREE ON THAT.....

So thanks Eliad for4 proving the Israelis MURDERED 9

Originally posted by virgom129
reply to post by Eliad

 

oh and by the way, the only live weapons they had were pistols, not guns so you are the one who is defending the indefensible LOL


If this is true it pretty much confirms the "execution" theory...

The majority died from "HEADSHOTS"

Given the inaccuracy of pistols, in normal circumstances a shooter would aim for the body....NO ONE WILL DISSAGREE ON THAT.....

So thanks Eliad for4 proving the Israelis MURDERED 9

I will disagree with that assessment. Normally, one aims center of mass. If, on the other hand, assailants fail to drop from two or more center of mass hits, my aiming point will automatically be shifted to the neural motor strip, on the assumption that ballistic vests are at play, and center of mass shots are being blocked by them.

Aiming at the neural motor strip severs the brain stem, and causes the assailant to drop like a stone. They don't even exhibit the normal nerve twitch from brain shots.

"Murder" is a legal term, and must be determined in a court of law, rather than a court of emotion. I've been called a 'murderer' before, by folks who have never been in harm's way, and so haven't got a clue what it's about.

All they have to go on is emotions.

Edit to add: I would absolutely NOT go into a situation that could call for firearms with a weapon as inaccurate as you describe. If I don't know where that shot is going to go, I can't trust my life on that weapon, and it's not going with me just for show.

[edit on 2010/6/11 by nenothtu]

I would have to agree with Eliad and Nenothtu on their findings.

Only detail I could argue with is the stating of only pistols being the live weapons equipped/used.

I have spotted an S13 soldier equipped with a mini-uzi at the stern of the ship in the submitted footage.

This may have been a 'bb replica' but I do not think so in my opinion.

I would have thought that this was one of the reserve weapons brought down from the Blackhawk by one of the last few S13 soldiers to be inserted in reaction to the situation. But that reasoning is speculation on my part.

Something that seems to be missed by our 'respected' opponents on these Middle East forums is the use of video footage from both 'sides' that those deemed to be 'pro Israeli' posters use as evidence in comparison to the 'reports' and 'eye witness' statements that are largely the evidence submitted by the 'pro Palestinans'.

Video footage that is shown to collaborate details and events submitted by both sides >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reports and eye witness statements.

Unless you just don't want to believe what you see. Then that is a personal issue.

Kind regards,

Skellon.




[edit on 11-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by Skellon


Well we can mainly only see what Israel wants us to see.
They have admitted to confiscating all equipment.

One person supposidly managed to smuggle out some footage but thats it.

It is very hard to reach a factual conclusion either way ATM...

I guess only the Israelis know the full truth but after their admission of tampering, who is going to believe them??

reply to post by nenothtu


I will disagree with that assessment. Normally, one aims center of mass. If, on the other hand, assailants fail to drop from two or more center of mass hits, my aiming point will automatically be shifted to the neural motor strip, on the assumption that ballistic vests are at play, and center of mass shots are being blocked by them.

The 19 year old American had one chest wound and four head wounds..
Maybe a second in the chest would have stopped him having seen by the
4 HS's that whoever shot him had good aim..

reply to post by virgom129


Hi virgom,

Their admission of 'tampering' is not really in context.

They submitted a recorded transmission. When questions regarding this submitted transmission came up, they submitted a larger portion of the transmission to my knowledge.

They had been transmitting to the Mavi Marmara for near 6 hours.

The original 'sound bite' released was in defence of the world's media jumping to the conclusion that they 'turned up, fired on the ship, then boarded and proceeded to murder 9 people and wounding many more.

You are absolutely correct though in regards to the confiscation of media and recording devices.

We do not know what happened outside of the footage released. The S13 could have become become blood lusted and shot the place up, they could have also had a rave.

We just don't know.

The removal of media and recording footage would be a SOP for secuirty measures though. Specifically as a government initiated protocol.

It is a security containment issue. The more footage the Israeli government releases, the more chance of the media finding things to skew.

From Israels opponents, this act is seen as proof that there were things that would incriminate the IDF in the footage confiscated.

Again, we don't know.

Skellon.

Originally posted by virgom129
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I will disagree with that assessment. Normally, one aims center of mass. If, on the other hand, assailants fail to drop from two or more center of mass hits, my aiming point will automatically be shifted to the neural motor strip, on the assumption that ballistic vests are at play, and center of mass shots are being blocked by them.

The 19 year old American had one chest wound and four head wounds..
Maybe a second in the chest would have stopped him having seen by the
4 HS's that whoever shot him had good aim..

I can't disagree with that. They were without doubt good shots.

It used to be stressed to us to practice like it was real, but qualify like we were amateurs. In other words, our qualification targets used to be retained, and if those target all had head shots, and we had to drop some one with a head shot, then the targets would be used as proof that we could hit what we aimed at, and so were intending execution.

All of our qualification targets back then had center of mass hits, and some flyers to show we really weren't that good. All those targets could indicate was that we must have had a lucky shot. Things tightened up a bit after they quit retaining the targets.

My main point is that under stress, your body will automatically do as you've trained it to do. When you perceive that people intend you harm, you will react as trained, often without time for conscious thought.

Stress can be a bitch like that, which is why these days I prefer to stay by myself, and away from stressful situations.