“All I saw in Israel was cowards with guns”, page 14


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reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 06:09 AM by Eliad
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


As for the legality of action in open waters- en.wikipedia.org...
This is the international law.

Also- www.reuters.com...

As for the guns- They were carrying PAINTBALL guns

As the actions of the soldiers- Were they in mortal danger, should have they opened fire?

Soldiers being ambushed-
www.youtube.com...

Preparations before the boarding-
www.youtube.com...

A transcript of the israeli soldiers getting shot at, or hearing shots, by their reactions it's clear that they were no the ones firing.
www.youtube.com...
I can confirm that the translation is correct.
Although I can't confirm its authenticity

Weapons on the ship-
www.youtube.com...

And censored cuts from the flotilla broadcast, I bet you haven't seen that one on the news...
By the way- 2:32= seal gets stabbed, and does nothing about it.

As for the myth that the soldiers came in guns blazing:

A) Most videos show the soldiers at the moment they're descending down from the helicopter and you can see they're not shooting, which means the only option is if they shot them before they landed which leads me to-
B) No dead or wounded bodies on deck at the moments the soldiers descend.. Do you really think they had time to hide the bodies? And even if they did, why would they do that?
C) A helicopter can be heard miles away, also everyone was well aware of the approaching IDF because they came with ships as well, and if that's not enough- the sound of a gun is very loud and can be heard clearly and easily from miles away. So how come there is no footage, no video, no picture, nothing of the forces shooting at the ship? Why aren't there videos of wounded BEFORE the landing of the soldiers? So many news agencies and no one had their camera ready?
No, instead we are told to believe that the soldiers fired shots just before they started shooting the video... I mean, seriously? Does that make sense? What happened, you forgot to take the lens cap?
D) It hasn't been confirmed by any news agency, as far as I know, so far it is being treated as hear say, rumors, and stories. And believe me, media spins are easy to create, and hard to disqualify, as they tend to spread regardless of solid proof.
E) Shooting from a distance and then going down with paintball guns just makes no sense.
F) Do you really think that if they had shot at the activists they would have missed? These are navy seals, so how come there's no evidence of people being show with M16 or rifle bullets and only 9mm pistol bullets?

I can go on thinking of more holes but I'm sure this is enough..


As for the myth that everyone is pro israel, and israel has an awesome PR-
I bet you haven't see any of those videos on the news, have you?
Or know that this happens- blogs.reuters.com...
The whole PR bias myth is a big fat lie, created to perpetuate the myth of the jew pulling the strings, and making it seem like the world loves israel and is blind so that you'd hate it more.. You know, in israel we just assume that everyone knows that we have the worst PR, and bias, because, well everyone's a part of it..
www.youtube.com...
This is just off the top of my head...

Look, you can only keep your eyes closed for so long. In the end it's your choice what you want to believe, but the truth is there are always two sides to a story, and most of the world keeps getting the same side twice. Seriously, cropping photos? Censoring videos?
As I said, in the end it's your choice, but there's more than one side here.

With respect,
Eliad.


reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 07:24 AM by EvolvedMinistry
reply to post by nenothtu

Eat my lunch??? That was retarded. Sorry to say it, but absolutely true.

Still no information or sources huh??? Still arguing conjecture??? Still fighting the stagnant fight are ya???

Best of luck on that. It surprises me that anyone could take you seriously.



reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 07:33 AM by EvolvedMinistry
reply to post by Eliad


I saw the "weapons." Not very convincing.

Paintball guns??? Are you serious??? I've been shot by them and then also the real thing. I wonder which one I preferred???

A knife??? I'm sure you've heard that old saying, "NEVER BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT." Hence 9 people dead and 20 injured. How about a boxcutter...did you buy that one too???

I'm sorry guy, but the Israelis are a bunch of liars. They've lost many of their allies for their actions, and they lost them for a reason. There were Europeans on that ship, plus the MARINE who saw exactly what they did. Its funny how your information isn't being ran in any REAL media source (YOU TUBE???), and just because a couple of soldiers who were on a separate part of the ship jumped when they heard gunfire from their own boys across the ship doesn't mean that they were attacked. As it was later discovered, there wasn't a single gun on the flotilla owned or used by ANY OF THE PASSENGERS. The gunfire that they heard was their own.

So...although YOU TRY to present a decent case, and, much better than many of your counterparts, it still sounds like complete hogwash.

Over and out...

Much love to all...


reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 07:44 AM by Eliad
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

I saw the "weapons." Not very convincing.


Uhhh.. What's not convincing about knives, hammers, hatchets and rods? You seem to only see what you want to see, my friend.
My guess is you haven't even watched the video, and now you're making a fool out of yourself. I give you the respect of posting all these videos up, the least you can do is watch them all the way through.
If you had watched them- You see the many knives, some of them quite big, you see the clubs and rods used, and I'm hoping you saw the way there were used, what are you supposed to be convinced of?
There were weapons on board, deadly weapons- Yes, knives are deadly, and they were used. What more is there to it?


Paintball guns??? Are you serious??? I've been shot by them and then also the real thing. I wonder which one I preferred???


I'm serious, painball guns, you see, as opposed to other armies the IDF won't board a ship of activists with real guns.
Also I doubt you have been shot by a real gun. No, call of duty does not count.
Anyway I'm assuming you agree with me that the IDF made the right choice in coming in with paintball guns, and that it shows that their intents were not to harm anyone.


A knife??? I'm sure you've heard that old saying, "NEVER BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT." Hence 9 people dead and 20 injured. How about a boxcutter...did you buy that one too???


The point was (if you had bothered to watch.. You haven't watched any of the videos, have you?) that the soldier was stabbed and did nothing, he didn't even fire his paintball gun! Nothing!
If the soldier's intent was to attack and kill that stabber would have been dead the moment he approached the soldier with a knife, or a moment later.
Again, getting stabbed and doing nothing- Does this seem like something an attacker would do?


I'm sorry guy, but the Israelis are a bunch of liars. They've lost many of their allies for their actions, and they lost them for a reason.


Your blatant bias against israel and inability to have a civil discussion without spreading hateful opinions is just proof of your ignorance.
A mature human being would have at least avoided calling the israeli liars, as all I've shown you are videos, and not interpretations. These are facts. What you do with them is up to you.
Again, your inability to have a civil discussion only shows the thinness of your arguments, and your desire to cling to anything just so you won't have to consider the fact that the israeli side might not be at blame. You, and all those who act the same as you, without thinking, being fed by biased media, and not caring about both sides of a story, should be ashamed.
If you have watched all the videos you should have at least come to the conclusion that there is maybe room for doubt about the initial reports.


There were Europeans on that ship, plus the MARINE who saw exactly what they did.


Hear say, rumors and stories are easy to cling on, when I'm showing you facts- I'm showing you real footage, real pictures, and real recordings.
And you reply with stories of people who probably hate israel.
Why is that? Have you got any solid proof to what you're saying?


Its funny how your information isn't being ran in any REAL media source


It is funny.. Why is that you think? These are official videos, not edited in any way. Could it be the media is showing one side?


As it was later discovered, there wasn't a single gun on the flotilla


As you are well aware the guns were taken from the soldiers.


The gunfire that they heard was their own.


Again, you choose to believe, but I won't argue, just ask you- were their lives not in danger?


it still sounds like complete hogwash


Prove me wrong.

Eliad.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by Eliad]


reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 08:45 AM by gncnew
Originally posted by brutalsun
Until Ken can produce a unit, division something other than "I'm a former Marine" he's full of thick brown stuff. Any Marine worth his salt can tell you EXACTLY what he did and WHERE he did it. For instance one of my close friends exclaims all the time " Lance Corporal Mike G&&&&, 3rd LAR bravo company 29 palms" Granted he served during Somalia and things change, but Marines don't. People run around all day long and "claim" to be Marines, but you can weed them out pretty quick. Even if he was discharged under less than honorable, he should have a dd214. I would be interested in viewing that.
There is a certain lingo that those in the military in general use with each other and we can tell who has and who hasn't served. It's like a brick layer trying to speak geek with a network specialist... just sounds off.

[edit on 8-6-2010 by brutalsun]


Like I posted before, as a former Marine (by the way - all Marines refer to themselves as "former" not "ex"...) I started smelling some rat in his biography.

I google around, was on the usual USMC sites and could find nothing about this guy.

I get the feeling he took a picture on a ship at some point, maybe as ROTC? But either way my gut tells me he was a reservist who probably was playing sickbay commando when he was called up for duty.

Everyone loves the free college - not everyone likes having to pay the piper. He was probably discharged for not reporting for duty (which is a crime actually) and then instead of hiding his head in shame like he should have he's grabbed this B.S. moral high ground and is a egomaniac sycophant that is trying to scream "Look at me! Look at me!".

Regardless of the circumstances surrounding your departure from the Marines - earning that title is an honor that is only disparaged by those who became disenfranchised when they realized that the Marines actually expect you to live up to your obligations and be responsible for your actions - unlike today's weak society.

Usually these people then demonize the institutions that have done nothing but highlight their own shortcomings.


reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 12:47 PM by EvolvedMinistry
reply to post by Eliad


Actually, you're making a fool of yourself by defending an indefensible position. There are only a fringe element of people who still hold your views and defend Israel's psychotic behavior, and right now, that isn't a very popular or intelligent position to take. Most individuals who are capable of critical and logical thought processes don't support violence and are evolving beyond the need to hurt one another to make a point and control the world's population through fear and hate; hence the worldwide outrage of the attack on the "Flotilla." People have had enough of the lies and propaganda. Evidently, you have not.

You simply reveal your own nature with every post. So far, I haven't had to do any work, you've done it all for me.

Many thanks to you for making this a very simple argument for me to win.

By the way...what should I do to PROVE to you I was shot by a gun??? Send a note from my mom??? Grow up. There are people who get shot everyday. It isn't some elite club that I'm in. But I can tell you this, once its happened to YOU, you'll understand why its way more fun to get shot by a paintball.

Much love to all...

[edit on 9-6-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

[edit on 9-6-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]


reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 01:38 PM by Silcone Synapse
reply to post by nenothtu


Erm,watch one of the videos of the assault on the aid convoy maybe??
Listen to some of the testimonies of those on board who witnessed people being shot in the head,maybe?

Or is the internet censored where you live?


reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 01:46 PM by Boomer1941
reply to post by Peruvianmonk


What about those 'doctored' photos Reuters posted that Fox News uncovered yesterday??? You know, the ones with and without the knife in the hand of the guy who just got through stabbing the Israeli, Reuters has been caught before doctoring photos. When this guy starts using the term 'Brother' as many times as he did I have to become suspect of him, he could have easily been part of the problem Marine or not. I wonder what the Marines would have to say about this guy, you know "once a Marine always a Marine"?



reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 01:47 PM by nenothtu
Originally posted by Silcone Synapse
reply to post by nenothtu


Erm,watch one of the videos of the assault on the aid convoy maybe??
Listen to some of the testimonies of those on board who witnessed people being shot in the head,maybe?

Or is the internet censored where you live?


I did. I watched all the available video I could find, and have yet to see a "fully automatic assault rifle" in them. I'm not sure you know what that is, by the way you talk. If these head shots were from assault rifles, where are the wounds? All I've seen reported are 9mm wounds. Can you direct me to at least a report of assault rifle bullet wounds? That's the very LEAST you could do to support your claim, since you can neither identify these "assault rifles" nor provide a picture to one in use, or even being held.

Have you ever seen a close range head wound from an assault rifle? I bet if such were available, it would be all over the net by now. They're pretty attention-grabbing. 9mm, not so much, unless it's REAL close.

I take it from your non-response, quoted above, that a response is not possible.

[edit on 2010/6/9 by nenothtu]


reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 03:36 PM by dirkpotters
reply to post by Peruvianmonk


Truth Emerging? No truth here in this thread.

Who here has actually read and understands the Hamas charter?
Who here really knows the history of land called "Palestine" in the last 200 years?
Who here knows the international laws regarding legal blockades?
Who here knows the internal armed conflicts in Gaza between Fatah and Hamas since the death of Arafat in Nov. 2004?

I see the word 'apartheid" in one reply. What a joke. The blacks in South Africa did not have their own government, they did not have the right to vote. Arabs living in Israel have the right to vote.

The people on this flotilla were intentionally trying to provoke Israel, and several on the flotilla have publicly stated this. Those on the flotilla got what they asked for.

This former marine is no hero. He and his companions have broken international law and have no legal nor moral authority to do what they have done. He got what he deserved.


reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 03:43 PM by Eliad
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


While you may have written many words, you have yet to say anything.
I have yet to read anything from you that proves me wrong.
You keep using weasel words like "Most individuals who are capable of critical and logical thought processes", "only a fringe element of people", or simply "people" as if to show that by trying to contradict all of these brilliant yet mysterious people I'm wrong when in fact these claims have no basis, and only exist to further your point, which is nothing.

I say nothing because you haven't brought up any point to contradict any of mine, you haven't brought any proof to what you say, and all this time all I hear from you is that I'm wrong, but there is no reasoning as to why I am wrong.

You have basically said nothing, in many many words.

Also I'd like to remind you that the popular opinion is not always the right opinion, nor is it the truth.
The more I look at it the more questions arise from your post, where there should have been answers..
Allow me to add guiding questions to help you in further discussions:


Actually, you're making a fool of yourself by defending an indefensible (Why is it indefensible? What are your arguments?) position. There are only a fringe element of people(Who are those people? What makes them fringe? Who decided that they're fringe? You?) who still hold your views and defend Israel's psychotic (What makes it psychotic? Who decided that it's psychotic? You?) behavior, and right now, that isn't a very popular or intelligent (What is the correlation between popular and intelligent? What makes my opinion not intelligent? The fact that it's not yours?) position to take. Most individuals who are capable of critical and logical thought processes don't support violence (Neither do I, has anything I said made you think otherwise? Please quote. Has any of the arguments in favor of israel makes you think otherwise about israel? If so, please quote) and are evolving beyond the need to hurt one another to make a point(Neither do I, and neither does israel, if there's anything that I've argued that implies otherwise- Please quote) and control the world's population through fear and hate (Who are we talking about? Who is trying to control the world? Is it me? Is it israel? If so please provide arguments to prove your point); hence the worldwide outrage of the attack on the "Flotilla." People (Again, who are these people? Where are they from, what are their beliefs, etc) have had enough of the lies (What lies? Have I provided you with one single opinion? All I've shown you are videos and facts. You on the other hand have provided nothing to further your point) and propaganda (Erm.. I think you need to open up a dictionary and look up that word). Evidently (How is it evident? Provide quotes), you have not (Awww.. You know me so well ).

You simply reveal your own nature with every post. So far, I haven't had to do any work, you've done it all for me. (Is that why you're not saying anything meaningful? Yeah, it does feel like I'm doing all the thinking, now that you mention it)

Many thanks to you for making this a very simple argument for me to win. (Congratulations! Now after your glorious victory could you please reply to any of the points that I'd made in my earlier post? That would be super, thanks.)

Much love to all...


See, all you have to do now is just answer the questions, and voila! Instant intelligent meaningful reply.

With respect,
And of course much love to all
Eliad.


reply posted on 9-6-2010 @ 05:48 PM by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by dirkpotters


Yes i know the history of Palestine over the last couple of hundred years.

I know that Jews in numbers of a few thousand emigrated to the country during the 1800's and were generally accepted by their neighbours.

I know this changed from 1917 onwards when Zionist policy became declared British policy through the Balfour Declaration.

I know the Arabs of Palestine from that point onwards resisted as it was clear that Jewish immigration was now part of the Zionist model, supported by the British, which was to clear Palestine and Transjordon of the Arab populace and proclaim a Jewish state.

Britain backed off their support of the Zionists when the Arab General strike and revolt took place from 1935-37. Britain was facing mounting threats to her empire from the Italians, Germans and Japanese, she needed the Arabs onside.

In 1939 the White Paper agreed that the nation of Palestine would be neither Jewish nor Arab in form. 75,000 Jews would be allowed in over a period of 5 years, with an Arab veto on any extension. A legaslitive council would be set up to run the independent bi-national state.

Above was the correct decision regarding Palestine. This was never followed through, and partition became the course of action after the Second World War leading to the creation of Israel.

Britain should never have committed to fostering the extreme views and ideas of the Zionists.

The Balfour Declaration was one of the biggest political mistakes of the 20th Century.
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