Separate Studies Conclude: Atheism = Peace, Religiosity = Higher Sociological Problems

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Sorry but again you are wrong. I gave evidence from a Phd who gathered as many facts as possible about the murders caused by Communism...and Communism is an ATHEIST belief...

Another faulty premise.

Atheism is a lack of belief, particularly in deities.
Communism is a political system and philosophy.

Communism may well have killed millions, but it was the political system, not the lack of belief in deities, that was the source.

Once you detect this error of association you may be able to present a better argument.

I don't agree, one of the tenets of Marxism is to destroy the church, and when u get generations of people who grow up without every hearing about God and who don't realize he exists, then you leave the door open for tremendous problems when men no longer make their decisions fearful of a coming judgment day with a holy God. If a man feels there is no God, and once he dies he'll be dust, then what stops that man from doing whatever suits his heart at any given time?

The study is actually a study of how the US fares against other "1st world" countries, not a study of the effects of religion on violence. Once again the authors of a study fail to understand the difference between causality and correlation. There are so many potential factors for the differences in nations that the authors have overlooked. The study fails at so many levels I cannot even begin to comprehend why anyone would take it seriously. So much for peer review. The bias is readily apparent. US bad, Europe good.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Correllation Between Atheism And Peace

The Chronic Dependence of Popular Religiosity upon Dysfunctional
Psychosociological Conditions

The above research (PDF format) and the following videos (the latter a review of the above link), display an apparent correlation between religiosity and serious sociological problems,

Anyway, you want to know what my view is?... EVERYONE must choose their own path, or religion. It shouldn't be on the hands of OTHERS to force people into believing one thing or another. However parents have the obligation to teach their children good moral values, and if they learned those good moral values through religion the child, or children should be taught as the parents learned, and when that child grows up he/she can choose whatever belief, or path/religion they want to follow.

However, it should not fall on the STATE/government, or some other third party on what religion, or other belief people must learn or follow, it should be a decision made by each and every person.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Go to Appendix A (Page 38) and get the per cent figure for "Absolutely believe in God" (Sweden 12%), then go to Appendix B (Page 39) and get the per cent figure for "Agnostics and atheists" (Sweden 35%). Add the two figures (Sweden is 47%), the remainder from 100% is unaccounted for (Sweden 53%). The unaccounted figure ranges from 29% (USA) to 65% for Japan. Just what is the religious beliefs of the unaccounted per cent (which is significant). In short if you are not a theist or agnostic/atheist then what are you?

To be valid the entire population should be sampled. A sample is a proxy for a population.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by jagdflieger
Right away I see a problem here because he is not counting or considering any religious belief of the entire population.

To do that would require polling the entire population, would it not?

Can we deny the data because a few unaccounted outliers ?

Originally posted by jagdflieger
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Go to Appendix A (Page 38) and get the per cent figure for "Absolutely believe in God" (Sweden 12%), then go to Appendix B (Page 39) and get the per cent figure for "Agnostics and atheists" (Sweden 35%). Add the two figures (Sweden is 47%), the remainder from 100% is unaccounted for (Sweden 53%). The unaccounted figure ranges from 29% (USA) to 65% for Japan. Just what is the religious beliefs of the unaccounted per cent (which is significant). In short if you are not a theist or agnostic/atheist then what are you?

Those are the "Aliens did it" folks.

Okay, sorry, that wasn't funny....

[edit on 31-5-2010 by NOTurTypical]

Originally posted by jagdflieger
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Go to Appendix A (Page 38) and get the per cent figure for "Absolutely believe in God" (Sweden 12%), then go to Appendix B (Page 39) and get the per cent figure for "Agnostics and atheists" (Sweden 35%). Add the two figures (Sweden is 47%), the remainder from 100% is unaccounted for (Sweden 53%). The unaccounted figure ranges from 29% (USA) to 65% for Japan. Just what is the religious beliefs of the unaccounted per cent (which is significant). In short if you are not a theist or agnostic/atheist then what are you?

Thank you. Okay, I do see what you're pointing to but I'm not certain this is based on huge percentages of excluded data so much as it is a compilation of selected data which may be pertinent to the study. To be fair, the tables don't include theism, but certain tenets of popular religious beliefs. Also, there are religious systems in place that contain no personal gods -especially in the east - and therefore couldn't be referred to as a theist belief.

Originally posted by pacific_waters
To be valid the entire population should be sampled. A sample is a proxy for a population.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by jagdflieger
Right away I see a problem here because he is not counting or considering any religious belief of the entire population.

To do that would require polling the entire population, would it not?

Can we deny the data because a few unaccounted outliers ?

also depends how the questions are worded. Like the famous abortion poll questions:

Do you either support?:

A. A woman's right to choose where she gets an abortion from a medically trained physician.

or

B: Would you prefer pregnant women get abortions in "back alley" situations?

The results are in folks, 85% of people polled support pro-choice!!!!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jagdflieger
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Go to Appendix A (Page 38) and get the per cent figure for "Absolutely believe in God" (Sweden 12%), then go to Appendix B (Page 39) and get the per cent figure for "Agnostics and atheists" (Sweden 35%). Add the two figures (Sweden is 47%), the remainder from 100% is unaccounted for (Sweden 53%). The unaccounted figure ranges from 29% (USA) to 65% for Japan. Just what is the religious beliefs of the unaccounted per cent (which is significant). In short if you are not a theist or agnostic/atheist then what are you?

Those are the "Aliens did it" folks.

Okay, sorry, that wasn't funny....

[edit on 31-5-2010 by NOTurTypical]

Pathetic way to condemn people who tell their views.

When I read what atheists like to say sometime I come to the conclusion that atheism is a religion professing some form of hatred. They even more hate other religion than most radical Muslims hate Jewish army.

If this is that peace then "no thank you"

[edit on 31-5-2010 by odyseusz]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

I was atheist for about 20 years with one side of my family Christian. Too much pressure drove me away from religion. All the Christians I knew were very pushy (a pastor even got a youth group to surround me to try to force me to be saved when I didn't ask or agree to be). More awkward events later on, but I decided long before it wasn't for me.

Long story short... I accepted death as the end, but I always believed in freedom and equality. I was compassionate and generous to the less fortunate, always trying to help. I didn't think I could "get away with murder" because God wasn't watching. I had no interest in crime or anything like that (not since being a young teen) I knew well enough "what goes around comes around" and the basic commandments and moral behavior expected in my society and it served me fine.

I don't believe being atheist makes you evil and soulless. Good atheists have a logical, objective and open-minded view of the world and IMO are poised to discover far more truths about all religions, science and their own spirituality, as I have finally managed to do.

Being spiritual, knowing about infinity, doesn't mean you have to fear repercussions for immoral actions or for mistakes everyone makes as they learn. True freedom and peace is not fearing any such thing.... Self-control, strengthening your electromagnetic fields and your intent to create your perceived reality. That I believe should be the spiritual focus.

Beliefs are tools of life. In the wrong hands, they can be abused. This is not new. Just be free. The world will go on without a fight.

A non-belief in God Vs. a belief in Religion? How does this even compare?

Religion needs a God, God does not need a Religion.

EMM

Originally posted by pacific_waters
To be valid the entire population should be sampled. A sample is a proxy for a population.

That would be most accurate. However, I cannot think of a way to sample an entire population other than with census data, and many of the ISSP questionnaires would violate legal census requirements in certain countries.

Originally posted by chaosinorder

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jagdflieger
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Go to Appendix A (Page 38) and get the per cent figure for "Absolutely believe in God" (Sweden 12%), then go to Appendix B (Page 39) and get the per cent figure for "Agnostics and atheists" (Sweden 35%). Add the two figures (Sweden is 47%), the remainder from 100% is unaccounted for (Sweden 53%). The unaccounted figure ranges from 29% (USA) to 65% for Japan. Just what is the religious beliefs of the unaccounted per cent (which is significant). In short if you are not a theist or agnostic/atheist then what are you?

Those are the "Aliens did it" folks.

Okay, sorry, that wasn't funny....

Pathetic way to condemn people who tell their views.

I wasn't condemning anyone, I was making a joke. People can believe whatever they want to.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

To be fair, the tables don't include theism, but certain tenets of popular religious beliefs. Also, there are religious systems in place that contain no personal gods -especially in the east - and therefore couldn't be referred to as a theist belief.

Well is not theism, belief in God or a god? Also the only eastern nation on the list is Japan, all the others are either European, North America (USA and Canada), Australia, and New Zealand. No eastern country such as India is even considered. Gregory Paul seems to be talking about any belief in the supernatural. Also I am forming issues with his definitions. The per cent of unaccounted people in his tables is just the start.

Could it be that fundamentally religious contries are less peaceful? I mean to say that where countries have higher population of overt fundamentalists than quietly religious people who keep to themselves? In my view, fundamentalism, whether it be Christian, Muslim, what have you, is just as dangerous to peace as far-left liberalism in their zeal and desire to make others conform to their belief system.

Perhaps the "peaceful" countries have simply learned that foisting your beliefs on someone else is the root of conflict and have grown to live and let live. Similar to Liberals wanting everyone in this country to be athiests and Godless, filing lawsuits to remove any reference to religion from wherever they see it, Far-right religious zealots strive to abolish gay marriage and make abortion illegal because it goes against their belief system. It's attempting to make everyone else believe what you believe and it is where conflict thrives.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Another faulty premise.

Atheism is a lack of belief, particularly in deities.
Communism is a political system and philosophy.

Communism may well have killed millions, but it was the political system, not the lack of belief in deities, that was the source.

Once you detect this error of association you may be able to present a better argument.

Wrong. Communism is a socioeconomic system.. Even Wiki got this much right.

Communism is a social structure in which classes are abolished and property is commonly controlled, as well as a political philosophy and social movement that advocates and aims to create such a society.

en.wikipedia.org...

In Communism everything must be controlled, including the individual, and EVERYONE must be a good Communist which includes a materialistic view on life, and no attachment to any religion, or spiritual way of life.

The first people who have been imprisoned in Communist regimes have been religious figures, artists, poets, writers, and ANYONE who would write, or talk publicly in favor of any opposing view that is against Communism, and the Communist goals.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

Ok. i'm sorry but it looks like this whole thread is just one gigantic generalization of BOTH sides of this argument.

For one:
These studies look like they were done by athiests, which harms the credibility of this study.

2
Religion was/is a main tool of TPTB, especially durring the dark ages, when most of the Christian Crusades took place and most of the christians killing people, which was done at the behest of TPTB.

Ex. Why would you have to tell people "your sins are already absolved by god for this Holy Crusade and this service to his almighty" to get christians to kill people? Because PEOPLE are, by default, not wanting to go kill a bunch of MoFos just because they are a different religion. Why do you think King Richard was on the front lines? Because he was more of a general than a king. Oh, and who was TPTB at the time? The ROMAN catholic Church, who just couldn't stamp out the christian religion earlier on so it decided to just take it over. Think about it, ROMANS 13. Who else would have put that verse in the bible besides a bunch of sick POS's who want to keep hold on power.

Ex 2, the muslim jihads were a direct after-affect of the Christian Crusades. a Jihad is the war against someone trying to wipe you and your religion out, which a few radicals (with CIA help) decided to alter the meaning to mean "kill all invaders and infidels". So theres another religious war created by TPTB

3.
most of the religious murders/wars were from a time where information was not available to the common man and religion was a tool of TPTB of the time. So a good amount of it was people simply doing what they were told.


4.
Even if this study had the same results and was done by a religious group, the study cannot be accurate because it studies generalizations of a time where we were very young as a civilization. Even 1900 and forward is 100x different than it was back in the day. This day and age is different where you athiests can talk openly about your beliefs and people who are religious can be religious in any way they want instead of following a Strict code/guideline. You couldn't do either of those back in the day.

So what i guess i'm trying to say is that this argument is nill because not all atheists are peaceful just like not all religious folk are warmongers who hate other religions. We are in a day and age where understanding is starting to override blind followings. but, my one thing i have to say, is that a good amount of Atheists need to stop trying to shove their beliefs down other peoples throats.

One other person said it, but some atheists are worse than the worst bible-thumpers. If you are atheist, good for you. If you are religious, good for you. If you want to have a debate about religion vs atheism, call it a religion vs atheism debate, and not a "how atheists are better than religious folk" or vise versa. Quit driving wedges between people, bc we are all against TPTB in the end. and only when they are defeated, will we be able to truly have everlasting peace.

Originally posted by jagdflieger
Well is not theism, belief in God or a god? Also the only eastern nation on the list is Japan, all the others are either European, North America (USA and Canada), Australia, and New Zealand. No eastern country such as India is even considered. Gregory Paul seems to be talking about any belief in the supernatural. Also I am forming issues with his definitions. The per cent of unaccounted people in his tables is just the start.

Okay, I have found the source data for this published study here and I must admit that the polling is quite limited indeed. [However, what study ever takes into account polling an entire nation?]. Evidently there are also ways to collate the data on your own by linking out to another site. The Study Monitoring Report also has inclusive details about the data and testing.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Another faulty premise.

Atheism is a lack of belief, particularly in deities.
Communism is a political system and philosophy.

Communism may well have killed millions, but it was the political system, not the lack of belief in deities, that was the source.

Once you detect this error of association you may be able to present a better argument.

Wrong. Communism is a socioeconomic system.. Even Wiki got this much right.

Fair enough.

As long as we have it established that it is not an "atheist belief" as you've claimed multiple times.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by traditionaldrummer]