"Enlightenment" or some seriously warped thought patterns?

reply to post by james2009

I have to say that not all enlightened people are "perfect" as some believe,

I don't know any perfect people.

Originally posted by LususNaturae
reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

 

Thank you for your input. Yes, I admitted to being biased, however, I do, in actuality, want a discussion on enlightenment. Perhaps my wording was not the best. By 'warped' I did not mean 'insane', I meant, literally, warped, as in, you're not thinking in the same places that you used to think.
Yes, my meditations are just breathing exercises. As I said, I do not meditate for any spiritual value, just to calm my mind, slow down a little, take it all in rather than being so focused on one thing, appreciate my surroundings, get into a happier mood, uplift myself. I have a few times experienced some weird feelings, but I do not seek those feelings.

You presume much, seekeroftruth, and I feel that perhaps you too, have a mental block. I do not mean it as offensive, just as I'm sure you did not mean any offense to me as you said it. I'm just relaying my thoughts into text. Don't blame me, blame my consciousness.

It does not matter what I presume. I am insignificant. What matters more is what YOU presume, assume and do what is necessary or not to do, in order to seek for the knowledge that you are fully capable of, within the realm of better comprehension, logic and reason with an open mind that makes up more than the 5 senses you call your own consiousness are relying on now.

It is YOUR personal journey, for no one can live life on your behalf.

Peace.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by james2009

 

I have to say that not all enlightened people are "perfect" as some believe,

I don't know any perfect people.

I do, i am in love with one.

Perfect people is a matter of perception, how you see them. Fair enough if you dont see someone as perfect there is nothing wrong with that. However i notice alot of people who have less knowledgeable backgrounds tend to think enlightenment people are like GODS. Which is not the case.

Perfection is an extreme. Buddha knew this, and its why in Buddhism they teach the middle path, not perfection.

Enlightenment in the many ways it is described, is not this magical "ahhhh" intense bright light with where everything becomes blurry and you feel like the entire cosmos is within you at a single moment in time.

Its clarity.

Clarity not from an understanding of learning, but clarity from a divine like source. It is an experience nonetheless, but the clarity is in a sense a feeling of knowing from connectedness.

The reason enlightenment is bizarre, and beyond the realm of chemical processes is because nothing changes. You are the same person, with a new perception IMO.

It is pointless to sometimes even describe it because it would be like trying to describe what vanilla smells like to someone who has never smelled vanilla. Once you smell vanilla, its almost impossible to ever mistake the smell again, it practically stays with you as long as you can smell.

attaining enlightenment - as described - is not supposed to be a logical process. It is only special, because people assume it is special. It is as natural as sleeping, except you're now awake.

when someone "trys" to become enlightened, it is impossible. trying only creates tension. And many meditative methods teach not trying. Its kind of backwards when you think about it. But that is why it is bizarre.

the word itself can have different meanings depending on where you learn the definition from. It is the same as any spiritual awakening, but it all depends on where the definition is from. I think that is where every argument starts - define the terms - but wait - it can't be put into words

edit: think of how you feel when you are dreaming, and when you are in a lucid dream. Both are vivid, both seem real. But one is verrrrry different.






[edit on 24-5-2010 by juveous]

if i try to justify that word from truth perspective i would say this

truth is free positive life

now that equation mean two different movements the movement of positive and the movement of freedom that result in one life certainty

the first enlightthing occur when a self understand that positive concept is objective one
usually people think that positive is being positive so they understand the cocnept of positive as gains concepts from what they are already

while in truth it is completely different almost opposition to that

positive is a fact result from nothin, when you put all out as to what is objective existing then in starting to act in true mean of positive as a result to what objective is a result positive, you actually discover how it is more the truth of yourself too, puting all out leave you with something that cant be but true positive existant you are, so you understand the motion of always positive as certainty then fact, you will put out again that fact true of you which would lead to another result since you cannt vanish unless killed then
but you start to understand the concept of positive right from objective life truth source of positive value

and you are right in considering how then becoming lighter from positive truth realisation is never about thinking or thoughts it is the opposite, constant objective moves that say how you are not meaning anything at all as empty inside but existing positive aware of as a result always

positive i think is related to intelligence life so it prooves that intelligence is not only a tool but also a source of existance always fact in void life

while freedom is the source of another concept that is close to positive in truth perspective which is present
present is based on certainty facts of sameness repetitions
so same absolute wholeness is again so it becomes present confirmation some where, more same of present as constance is source of certainty truth fact
and certainty as a concept is related to positive concept in truth from where certainty assure that it cant be less

so you know lol you can imagine with the great you have serious discussions between infinite certainty and infinite positive results with their ties on lols how those interactions of summits could mean justification of absolute existence free positive life in truth

so the understanding of positive start from objective outside but only from being yourself a positive fact existing result

the understanding of freedom start from subjective observation of the positive result left, it is actually its back that is really nothing it is only wbat is left there, without of course mentionning evil powers on yourself but that you can handle in positive truth as not of you so not related to your presence fact

and here where you can understand the concept of freedom as saying certainty of positive you and how you become then source of yourself enjoying yourself life as you caring for really as both living, it is not both but those are truths from freedom certainties, the present is the confirmation of what is always sure free present, so there is this reality of it confirming you as present concept that you start to like it really too from what it is somehow you always maybe true
and here where it goes back outside for what you would then see everyone more objectively what they are truly living about

and you get linked for that to freedom sources of those confirmations too a bit, just maybe to give it a reality of truth facts

but actually in understanding the whole point you know how the result is evil life meaning interests of some truths
but also how those truths are never alive because their true sources also mean interests in their lives from
so those truths are never meant to itselves as truth to live, unfortunately for rights and for me mostly

Awakening, liberation, salvation, enlightenment are all names used to try to describe the indescribable. Yet what happens is just a realization. There is a total seeing of what is real. Without definition, without ideas or concepts. Just this. No becoming, for becoming implies time, and time is thought. Thought and mind will never understand. Being, which is what you really are, is before and beyond mind.
Ever present, the watcher, the knower.
Make it your life's mission to find out what 'I' is. Or better still, do it now. Who is this 'I'? What is this 'I'?
Be in joy.

[edit on 24-5-2010 by Itisnowagain]

reply to post by imans


so as a definition to enlightments i would say that,

enlightment is the illusion of loosing weight and gaining you as certain living forever

Interesting replies.
I am very glad I posted this topic. From the people who have claimed that they are 'enlightened' according to this new understanding of enlightenment that I have, these people aren't truly enlightened then? Is it ever even possible to achieve true and permanent enlightenment?

I only ask because it is one thing to say that 'enlightenment' is a realization of something that cannot be described, but then, when you try to recant this realization in words and think about it, you lose the sense of what exactly it is that you realized, and how you came to realize it.

If any of you here are computer programmers, you will know what I mean by 'recursive'. I don't fully understand recursion at all but, in programming, it's when you create a function that uses itself inside the function. Don't ask me how it works. I don't know. Would enlightenment be a sort of recursive thinking then? Like, would it be a thought, a 'pure' thought, that cannot be expressed, only thought, that has been with our brains the entire time which is dependent on itself to exist?

Boy, that was a mess to type... Lets see if I can clarify:

This 'thought', the 'enlightening' thought, I assume, from what I felt when I had such a 'revelation', is the thing that makes our 'impure' thoughts (or thoughts that can be thought of and expressed) possible. Does anyone understand what I'm talking about because that seemed like a really stupid thing to type.

When it happens, it is not thought. When it is realized. Thought comes and goes as does everything. Things are changing all the time - the landscape,say. What you essentially are never, changes.
The thoughts arise in the now always. Yet we think we are an individual with a past and future. Yet really we are fresh in the moment. Responsibility means respond ability - to this, that is happening now. Without the prison of beliefs, concepts, ideas, rights, wrongs. Just pure seeing, feeling the sensations of the alive body, and just wonder at it all.
To be. There is no way you can not be.
You are already that.

The discription is never the discribed, so we can discribe endlesly but then it becomes plain knowledge, an idea or consept.
Just a few postings back i wrote about path and meditation being a teached which is just empty knowledge, meaningless.
But this is what is happening, guru's all over the world are teaching this stuff and people follow it to become enlightened.
Depending on others, telling how to sit, how to meditate, which mantra, all rubbish.

reply to post by LususNaturae


i think in depth your means of truth are this lols sorry for speaking in retarded ways
it is maths after all in mind

life math is not existence math you have to put some words as a free living talking always about life concept realities

so your means, from my perspective is what in truth the concept of source should never be related to positive realisations
source is only to freedom certainty life which cannot then say anyother certain but would exclusively say what is not certain for sure

so positively that truth mean also, that positive realisations should be exclusively true
so who love to speak about their experiences cannot be true, when true sense is it does absolute realisations points and acts as free living so not talking about any justification

but also who always mean positive sources cannot be true either, what is true is always itself living point source first and last always

and most principally what is not true is always to evil life meaning at the end agsinst truth

because only truth is and truth is one result equation same, so what is not true cannot be to lie you cannot mean to lie principally when truth is all what is, you would mean to pretend for gains since truth is source, mean to justify what is less so you could pretend longer that right of pretense, and then it evolves to directly mean being against truth life or any absolute reality being true even a point

To be enlightened is to experience the Supreme Light within your mind, to know that light as your true self, and to no longer view your self as body but as immortal soul. To understand that all material things are impermanent but the Supreme Soul is immortal. That is enlightenment.

What IS enlightenment? How do you KNOW when you're enlightened? What HAPPENS when you're enlightened? What are the BENEFITS of enlightenment? What knowledge is gained from enlightenment? Why is enlightenment beneficial to people? Can enlightenment be just a chemical impulse that DOESN'T have any mystical or spiritual forces behind it? Does enlightenment just FEEL like enlightenment?

Questions like the above are but one of the reasons why I have joined this community, so lets get at it.

The Universe, God, Spirit, “who you really are” is always present and answering any questions that you have, but can you see it?

You answered your first question in Capitol letters – IS, do you see it? In fact, you answered all of your important questions in Capitol letters, do you understand what you have just told yourself?

When you awaken someone who is asleep, you shakeup their reality, in this case their person, until they are conscious and awake.

They are not taught to be awake, they did not learn to be awake, it is their natural state. They KNOW they are awake, what HAPPENS when their awake, it's BENEFITS, it's FEEL, that it DOESN'T have any chemical, mystical or spiritual forces behind it.

Enlightenment IS, it is your natural state of be-ing, just like being awake. Who you really are IS, who you think you are is asleep.

It is the simplest thing in the world to awaken. But as I am fond of saying, “It is the biggest event that will never happen to you”. At least for the you that you think you are.

Namaste
M

Enlightenment is the light in your mind. The highest thought possible that your mind can make, beyond which the mind goes blank and doesn't see or think. The thought just before that point is the highest point of the mind, this is the light of enlightenment. A real light, in the mind, that can be accessed in meditation.

You need to use your will in order to understand not just your mind but the Self beyond your mind. When you can turn your mind towards yourself, then you start to get a hint at what your true self is; beyond body, beyond mind.

By focusing on this thought, continuously, you start to understand this Self as an idea, a idea without parts or forms, but formless, part-less. Almost like nothing, but not nothing, since it is the Self beyond the mind.

By remembering this Self, which is behind the mind, you can start to gain a foothold understanding of what your true self is.

None of the definitions for enlightenment explain anything tangible, that's a waste of time, instead one should say either you're born with the "It" factor or you aren't. Some people just have certain unexplainable gifts.

Take me for instance, you know that guy at the bar who can get any girl?

Well I'm that guy, on crack.

[edit on 2-8-2010 by AProphet1233]

reply to post by filosophia


First, what is mind? How do you define it, how can you define it? How would you define highest thought?

It is from the perspective of Duality, that statements like these arise. Who is this self you talk about, and by what criteria do they judge their present reality.

Have you ever tried to focus on a section of a running stream? You can watch it flow, but there is no way to actually focus on any one part.

So too with the self. You are not the same person you were 5 years ago, not even 5 minutes ago. In every way measurable, change is happening to your form, your thoughts, both your mental and physical reality.

Can you see the assumptions and judgments in your post? Can you recognize them in yourself?

You have separated who you really are from who you think you are, and wish to bridge them. Who you think you are is but a dream, a stream of ever changing states, both mental and physical.

Self-Realization or Enlightenment IS, it is who you really are, have always been and will always be, not the river of dreams that make up the illusional self.

Awakening is just that, awakening to the reality that you are, without the restrictions and judgments ego uses to imprison who you think you are.

Can a stream awaken to reality, or is it already real?

Namaste
m

reply to post by LususNaturae


LususNaturae, let me run something by you. I have a theory that enlightenment is nigh impossible without some measure of psychic ability. Have you ever had a psychic experience? Do you believe psychic experiences are possible?

[edit on 2-8-2010 by Student X]

It is not a thing that only special people can have. it is available to all. Some will realize before they die others will realize as, or after death occurs.
We are born as one (non-duality), without thought, words, concepts and ideas. We just are, we know of no things. We know nothing. Compare this to the story of Adam and Eve, in the garden of Eden (paradise), before eating from the tree of knowledge. After eating from the tree of knowledge, whether you are Adam and Eve or the baby that grows to adulthood both go from unknowing to knowing, both are thrown out of the garden of paradise. When good/bad, right/wrong and every other concept are overlaid on us the suffering begins. And it will continue because we can then spend the rest of our lives seeing and saying 'this is wrong/bad'.
The benefit from 'enlightenment' is the suffering stops. Suffering is caused by labeling things good/bad, right/wrong. Suffering also happens because we think we are separate from the world and others. Yet everywhere we go, we are and the world is at the same time. It could be seen that the two, me and the world are really one, that is the 'relationship' between the two, equals one.
Before 'enlightenment', i have the illusion that i control my environment and life, yet everything i do doesn`t seen to work, or is just wears me down, so much energy used to juggle and struggle. In our heads we worry about the future and feel guilt about the past, this is the suffering.
Enlightenment can be pointed to by many on youtube, Jeff Foster, Neelam, Jac O'Keeffe, Eckhart Tolle, also check out Conscious Tv.
To try to explain it to someone who doesn't see is like trying to 'make' someone see those 3D eye pictures. If you don`t see it don`t give up, it is real and it is magic.

Returning to the state of not knowing sounds very scary, also a lot has been invested in me and what i know!
Really though we are always in a state of not knowing, we just think we know. Thinking we know gives us security. Yet the only real security we have is that there is no security, there is no ground on which to stand.
We are so scared that we use everything and everybody to make us feel safe.
We believe everything the mind tells us and it is the minds job to warn us of dangers. The mind does a good job. But the mind is not the boss of you, if you don't realize this, you will suffer. This is normal (dual) thinking, this is what people do, think they are their mind and thoughts. This is why the arguments happen in the head, one thought says this and another one answers. Which one of those voices are right???
The real you, the boss say, has no voice, it is the silent witness of all things. All things, including everything, the world, the body and each of those voices you experience, can be simply watched from that still quiet space that you are.
Go to youtube and enter Tony parsons intro part 1.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by Itisnowagain]

reply to post by LususNaturae


I agree with everything you stated here. However, I do believe that there are aspects of the human intellect that transcend the corporeal (neurons, chemicals, electro-impulses) and that we can experience them as generators of human intellect.

Of course, experiencing them, and properly interpreting them, are two very different things. Also, just like attending a rock concert doesn't transform you into a rock star, experiencing a transcendent moment doesn't cause you to become transcendent. But then, translating the experience is where folks generally lose their way.

I always remember that telephone game, where one kid whispers to the next kid in a large circle and the message gets all screwed up by the time it makes its way back to the original messager. Interpretation is the bottleneck in the process. That's where the breakdowns generally occur.

Then, the next thing you know, people are wearing moo moos and sitting on floor pillows.