The Robertson Panel: UFOs and Ridicule.

Originally posted by karl 12
.... and it's all very sad and predictable - they also always seem to roll their eyes, give a knowing smirk and cue the 'kooky' music.

Come on, you've also got to admit that a lot of 'UFO experts' and stories really ARE ridiculous and worthy of mockery, yes? And I 'admit' -- nay, I trumpet my belief -- that there are some reports in the total body of all reports, worthy of much closer and energetic investigation.

It doesn't take an active set of secret orders to promulgate cliches and stereotypes -- and that's what we're stuck with, unfair stereotypes, some positive and some negative. Raving that it's all due to secret manipulators and Masons is, well, worthy of snickering all on its own.

reply to post by JimOberg


Realy Jim you are a bit of a joker -I don't think anyone's raving about the masons and I'm quite surprised you've not addressed any of the points raised on the first page.

I do agree with you about 'UFO experts' though (link) - and I am glad to hear you realise there are some truly puzzling UFO cases - does this mean you're not a champion of the 'null hypothesis' anymore?

Link

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by Orkojoker


Orkojoker- here's another interesting CIA document from the year before the inception of the Robertson panel which talks about the 'creation of the correction of public opinion' - it's referring to the Topcliffe incident in the U.K. which according to Captain Ruppelt 'caused the RAF to officially recognize the UFO' (link)

CIA Document referring to this RAF 'flying disc' incident over Yorkshire, England,1952:


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/884179506585.jpg[/atsimg]

"In some RAF field, there was some sort of demonstration to which high officials of the RAF in London had been invited. During the show, a 'perfect flying saucer' was seen by these officials as well as RAF pilots. So many people saw it that many articles appeared in the public press. This is distressing to Dr Jones because he realises that the creation of the correction of public opinion is a part of his responsibilities."

Link

Operation Mainbrace ~ UFOs and USOs.

Cheers.

Originally posted by karl 12
I do agree with you about 'UFO experts' though (link) - and I am glad to hear you realise there are some truly puzzling UFO cases - does this mean you're not a champion of the 'null hypothseis' anymore?

Link

I don't think saying there are some truly puzzling UFO cases rules out the null hypothesis.

For example, a null hypothesis is that the universe is expanding, so the galaxies we see should be red shifted. Our observations show that some galaxies are blue shifted. If we haven't explained why they are blue shifted, I'm not sure that we've ruled out the null hypothesis.

Similarly a null hypothesis that supernatural or extraterrestrial explanations aren't required to explain UFO sightings, isn't necessarily contradicted by unexplainable sightings.

In both cases, the unexplained blue shifted galaxies, and the unexplained UFOs, I think we have to explain them to rule out the null hypothesis.

One example that comes to mind is the report of an object making "right angle turns". If I take off my scientist hat and put in my 10 year old hat when I used to watch bats eat mosquitoes, I could say it sure looked like they made right angle turns. Their flight seemed very erratic but they were just using their sonar to chase insects.

Putting my scientist hat back on, if we analyzed the bats movement with scientific instruments we'd find that the laws of physics weren't violated as a "right angle turn" would suggest. Yet some people hear this description and want to leap to the conclusion that a right angle turn must be supernatural, or extraterrestrial because it violates our known laws of physics (which it does). Much more likely is an imperfect perception on the part of an observer, or else it's not an object at all. I can point a laser at a cloud and make a right angle turn with the laser pointer without violating the laws of physics because there's no mass where the laser hits the cloud. So light can appear to do things that objects simply can't do.

I do understand why people sometimes tend to jump to the least likely conclusion, that a witness was right about the description that a "UFO" violated the laws of physics, instead of the more likely conclusion that based on what we know about errors inherent in the human perception system, it's probably the result of a flawed observation or optical illusion than an object truly violating the laws of physics. I think it's because we have this built-in desire to believe in the extraordinary.

I would re-write Jim Oberg's null hypothesis slightly though which states that states that "no extraordinary stimuli are required to produce the entire array of public UFO perceptions". I think sometimes the stimuli are quite extraordinary, even if they are from ordinary objects. For example the flash of a meteor burning up and lighting up the entire ground is a quite extraordinary observation. But while it's unusual for a meteor to produce such a bright flash on the ground, it can and does happen as shown in this video.



So when I read about an object lighting up the ground, something like this comes to mind as a possibility to consider.

Similarly, I think sometimes people see some extraordinary things, like this photo of 2 UFOs:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2513e065cb52.jpg[/atsimg]

Why is it extraordinary? Well, it's not ordinary to me. But it's also not supernatural or extraterrestrial. However it could seem like either, to less educated observers, especially when one of the UFOs was seen spraying something on the ground. I know with 99.999% confidence exactly what it was spraying, but the observer who was there watching the UFO doing the spraying has no idea what it was spraying.

Sometimes people just don't know what they are looking at, especially when what they see IS extraordinary. But I fail to see how seeing something extraordinary proves it's supernatural or extraterrestrial. not only does it not prove it, it doesn't even make it likely.

[edit on 25-5-2010 by Arbitrageur]

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Arbitrageur, thanks for the reply -I don't realy want to detract from the thread but you do make some fair points about the 'null hypothesis' -perhaps Jim could start a thread explaining why he thinks some UFO incidents are worthy of serious, scientific scrutiny and rigorous, energetic investigation.

Whatever the case there have been some truly bizarre UFO (and USO) incidents reported over the years - there are also some very strange objects being described by police officers here and in the government documents below - it makes it all the more difficult to just 'explain away' when some of these unknown objects are confirmed on radar, exhibit E.M. effects, leave physical trace evidence etc..

Gov Docs.

"It looked to be about 2000 feet in the air and a white-silverish looking colour -rotating in a counter clockwise manner. It was round in shape and going in a rather fast motion".
Doc




“Object described as flat on top and bottom and appearing from a front view to have rounded edges and slightly beveled. From view as object dived from top of plane was completely round and spinning in clockwise direction.... Object did not appear to be aluminum. Only 1 object observed. Solar white. No vapor trails or exhaust or visible system of propulsion. Described as traveling at tremendous speed".
Doc




"Objects being described as "25 yards in diameter, gold or silver in color with blue light on top, hole in middle, and red light on bottom".
Doc




"DURING THE FOURTH MINS OF OBSERVATION A BLUISH GREEN BEAM OF LIGHT APPEARED FROM THE CENTRAL CORE OF THE CONFIGURATION, EXTENDING OUTWARD AND DOWNWARD TO THE LEFT AT AN ANGLE OF APPROX 45 DEGREES, AND REACHING TO THE FADE OUT POINT OF THE RADIATING RINGS OF LIGHT. APPROX FIVE MINUTES AFTER THE APPEARANCE OF THE BLUISH-GREEN BEAM (SIMILAR IN APPEARANCE TO A SEARCHLIGHT BEAM), THE RADIATIVE CIRCLES OF LIGHT DISAPPEARED, LEAVING ONLY THE CORE OF LIGHT AND THE COLORED BEAM".
Doc




"There were bright objects hanging over the sea.The closest object was luminous, round and four to five times larger than a Whirlwind helicopter.
The objects separated. Then one went west of the other, as it manoeuvred it changed shape to become body-shaped with projections like arms and legs".
Doc




"THEY WATCHED THE OBJECTS FOR APPROX. 1 HOUR BEFORE REPORTNG THAT THE LARGE OBJECT WAS ALMOST ON THE ICE. THEY REPORTED THAT THE ICE WAS CRACKING AND MOVING ABNORMAL AMOUNTS AS THE OBJECT CAME CLOSER TO IT. THE ICE WAS RUMBLING AND THE OBJECT LIT MULTI-COLOR LIGHTS AT EACH END AS IT APPARENTLY LANDED".
Doc




“...pilot of helicopter wished to stress fact that the object was of a saucer-like nature, was stationary at 2000 ft. And would be glad to be called upon to verify any statement and act as witness.”
Doc

Thread

Cheers.

Originally posted by karl 12
there are also some very strange objects being described by police officers here

One case that's almost certainly a real UFO is the Jan 5 2000 sighting by 4 different police officers in Illinois, and a truck driver. They even got this picture:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f4b06c0a903a.png[/atsimg]

Which didn't turn out too well but well enough to rule out "Venus". A forensic CGI artist recreated what each witness saw to give us a clearer idea than the photo, here's one of the renderings:



It's one of the best UFO cases I know of, and it's apparently no known aircraft. The TV show those captures are from speculates that it might be an unknown or secret aircraft which seems possible, but it's definitely unidentified and it sure seems to be a real object.

But since we were talking about U2 and skyhook sightings and the military not wanting to admit what people were actually seeing, this UFO may be a more modern version of such an object, maybe the military knows what it is and they won't tell us because it's a secret. However I have to agree with critics who say that flying your secret aircraft over highly populated areas with the lights on doesn't seem like a good way to keep a secret. Yet didn't they do the same thing classified skyhook balloons? In any case, it's certainly unexplained and a mystery in my book.

Arbitrageur, thanks for the reply and it certainly is an unexplained mystery - that's also a very interesting pic (and rendition) you've posted there - I think I'll have to add it to the police UFO report thread.

As you say there's a lot of speculation as to what these objects actualy are and we all know there's been some completely bizarre reports submitted down the years - one of the most puzzling I've ever come across was the object involved in the Portage County incident from 1966 so if the U.S. Military are testing top secret aircraft over populated civilian areas they've been doing it for quite a long time.

The chase finally ended when the cruiser ran out of gas near Pittsburgh.They said the craft they chased was about 50 feet across and 15 to 20 feet high with a large dome on its top and an antenna jutted out from the rear of the dome".

*Above BlueBook* - Ohio UFO Chase , Portage County April 17, 1966

As for the U.S. Government's apparent reluctance in sharing UFO information, there's another interesting document below (from the year of the Robertson panel) which seems to be focusing on a strategy for 'explaining' UFOs to the general public and 'working' with the media.

HOW TO "EXPLAIN" UFOS TO THE PUBLIC:


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b417c035bb0c.jpg[/atsimg]

"...for those times where the object is not explainable, it would be well to advise your people to say something on this order. "The information on this sighting will be analyzed by the Air Technical Intelligence Center at Dayton, Ohio," and leave it at that..."

Link

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12

What's interesting in that case and perhaps relevant to this thread is what happens to people who report UFOs.

The implication as I understand it from page 1 is that the "UFOs: Friend Foe or Fantasy" showed how Frank Mannor was ridiculed and called a "nut" after he reported the UFO over his swamp. Whether he had any help or scripting from the producers of the show or not is questionable to me, however if there was any "gummint" involvement to try to discredit those who report UFOs, I suspect at most what the producers might have done is screen the witnesses to find one like Frank Mannor. His dialog doesn't seem scripted to me.

But getting back to the Portage County case, of all the cases I've read I can't recall any having a worse outcome for the witness who reported the UFO, I think it destroyed his life, or the story I read portrayed it that way.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by easynow

The men who were involved in this incident suffered for it. They were hounded by the media and ridiculed by others. Buchert and Neff stopped talking about the incident to anyone. Panzenella received so many phone calls about the incident that he finally had his phone disconnected. Huston quit the police department and moved to Seattle, Washington, where he became a bus driver, changing his preferred name from Wayne to Harold. Spaur's life was ruined. He was hounded even worse than the others. He began to have personal problems that culminated in his arrest for the assault and battery of his wife. He turned in his badge and made a meager living as a painter. His wife divorced him.

Spaur said:

"If I could change all that I have done in my life, I would change just one thing. And that would be the night we chased that damn thing. That saucer."

I feel sorry for the guy and I've often said if I saw something amazing and didn't get a picture, I'd be reluctant to tell people about it, after reading about experiences like that. But everyone has cameras everywhere nowadays, even decent cameras on cell phones, so we should be getting pictures if there's anything to photograph.

I don't get the impression this outcome of Spauer's ruined life was gummint propaganda to discourage people from reporting UFOs either. But I guess some people can handle getting a million phone calls better than others. Lonnie Zamora probably received a lot of phone calls.

[edit on 27-5-2010 by Arbitrageur]

reply to post by karl 12

HOW TO "EXPLAIN" UFOS TO THE PUBLIC:

High Tech Air Force UFO Explanation Chart
i530.photobucket.com...




it seems the Ghost of the Robertson panel
was still roaming around in the late seventies !

"standard responses to UFO public inquiries"
www.nicap.org...

On September 1, 1977, Colonel Charles H. Senn, USAF Chief, Community Relations Division, Office of Information sent a letter to Lt. General Duward L. Crow, USAF (Ret.), working at NASA. In the letter Col. Senn said “I sincerely hope you are successful in preventing a reopening of UFO investigations.” The letter was sent in copy form to other offices as well. In the end he was successful in preventing the reopening. In this case, Col. Senn violated his office charter by not being community relations oriented and definitely not aimed at providing information at the title of his office defines as proper. This should be a starting place for an investigation of why this and other P.I. offices did not and are not freely providing UFO information.

www.mufon.com...

Duward L. Crow

Crow was appointed Assistant Vice Chief of Staff of the Air Force. He retired from the Air Force on August 1, 1974.[1] He was subsequently named Associate Deputy Administrator of NASA in 1975

en.wikipedia.org...

Jim Oberg -
After service in the US Air Force, he joined NASA in 1975

en.wikipedia.org...

Crow and Oberg left the Air Force and both of them joined NASA in 1975 !

.................................coincidence ?



[edit on 27-5-2010 by easynow]

Originally posted by easynow


Crow and Oberg left the Air Force and both of them joined NASA in 1975 !

.................................coincidence ?

Maybe not, if you trust Wikipedia's regurgitation of unchecked info.....

Didn't your 'irony alert light' even flicker when, after chronicling complaints of mockery and attacks at UFO witnesses, an oblique insinuation about another UFO-related commentator is floated -- by YOU -- to question that guy's motives? Pot, meet kettle.

About two dozen AF officers with space-related backgrounds were sent to work at NASA centers in preparation for USAF participation in the Space Shuttle program. The bureaucrats figured -- dunno why -- it made sense for those guys (me included) to get there a few years BEFORE the program began, to learn the ropes in time. Seemed to make sense to me, if not to you.



[edit on 27-5-2010 by JimOberg]

Originally posted by karl 12
The Robertson Panel: UFOs and Ridicule.

“Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe that unknown flying objects are nonsense.”

Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, public statement, 1960.

Interesting article about how the CIA sponsered Robertson Panel managed the 'public perception' of the UFO subject and concluded that it was 'in the best interest of the U.S. Government to suppress media coverage of UFO sightings'.

There are many reasons why your average professional scientist shuns away from studying UFO evidence or publicly admitting having an interest in the UFO subject.
The primary reason is the implied threat to one's carreer, either directly via officialdom retributions or indirectly through the carefully cultivated public perception that the UFO subject is scientifically unrespectable.
The latter was achieved by the psy-ops of the US Intelligence Establishment i.e. the officially sanctioned "debunking" and deception programme, euphemistically called "re-education of the public".

Good post karl 12, the use of ridicule and fear mongering is indeed become due all those decades by improving it a very important and obviously very successful “weapon” for stopping/withholding people on all levels in our society for coming forward and speak about their experiences and their knowledge related with that phenomenon.

Even our best scientists would think twice because of that to step forward and talk about it openly at the serious way it deserves.
Look for instance how despite all the momentarily available information about that phenomenon top scientists like Stephen Hawking and also Dr. Michio Kaku speak about that matter.

Look for instance what Richard M. Dolan said about that.

Nearly all scientists are employed by some large organization, such as a governmental department, a university, or a multinational company.

Only rarely are they free to express their science as a personal view.

They may think that they are free, but in reality they are, nearly all of them, employees; they have traded freedom of thought for good working conditions, a steady income, tenure, and a pension.

And it goes if necessary really much further then alone ridicule the person in question.

Here are some examples of how things were/are still done.
It are some testimony’s from the Executive Summary of the Disclosure Project Briefing Document of the disclosure project.

Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin: Army National Guard Reserves

“One older officer discussed with me what possibly could happen if there was a revelation. He was talking about being erased and I said, ‘Man, what do you mean erased?’ And, he said, ‘Yes, you will be erased — disappear.’ And I said, ‘How do you know all this?’ And he said, ‘I know.

Those threats have been made and carried out. Those threats started way back in 1947. The Army Air Force was given absolute control over how to handle this.

This being the biggest security situation that this country has ever dealt with and there have been some erasures…’
“I don’t care what kind of a person you are. I don’t care how strong or courageous you are. It would be a very fearful situation because from what Matt [this older officer] said, ‘They will go after not only you.

They will go after your family.’ Those were his words. And, so I can only say that the reason that they have managed to keep it under wraps for so long is through fear. They are very selective about how they pull someone out to make an example of. And I know that that has been done.”

Master Sgt. Dan Morris: US Air Force, NRO (National Reconnaissance Office) Operative

“I became part of a group that would investigate, gather the information, and in the beginning it was still under the Blue Book, Snowbird and different covert programs.

I would go interview people who claimed they had seen something and try to convince them they hadn’t seen something or that they were hallucinating.

Well, if that didn’t work, another team would come in and give all the threats.

And threaten them and their family and so on and so forth. And they would be in charge of discrediting them, making them look foolish and so on and so forth.

Now if that didn’t work, then there was another team that put an end to that problem, one way or another.”

Glen Dennis: NM UFO Crash Witness

“One of the MPs took me aside and he just said, look mister, you don’t go and start any. Nothing happened down here. And he said, if you do you know there’d be real serious problems. The way my character was at that time, I just said, I’m a civilian and you can go to hell. And that’s when he said, you may be the one going to hell. He said, somebody would be picking my bones out of the sand if I talked.”

Sgt. Leonard Pretko: US Air Force

“In the military they do ridicule you and I was ridiculed a few times about these UFO events. I was told that I would never make Master Sergeant if I brought this crap up again. My superior said, ‘If you keep this crap up you will never make Master Sergeant. You will get orders for Tech but you will never make Master Sergeant. They will force you out of the military.’”

Astronaut Edgar Mitchell

“But it has been the subject of disinformation in order to deflect attention and to create confusion so the truth doesn’t come out. Disinformation is simply another method of stonewalling. And that’s been used consistently for the last 50 years or so: Weather balloons over Roswell as opposed to a crashed craft of some sort. That is disinformation. We’ve seen that for 50 years. And it’s the best way to hide something…

“Whatever activity is going on, to the extent that it is a clandestine group, a quasi-Government group, a quasi-private group, it is without any type, as far as I can tell, of high level Government oversight.

And that is a great concern.”

Neil Daniels: United Airlines Pilot

“In the past pilots that had seen things and had talked about it were let go. Some were released from their flying and treated as nutcases and things like that. So that was the last I said of it for many, many years.”

reply to post by JimOberg

Maybe not, if you trust Wikipedia's regurgitation of unchecked info.....

exactly which info is disputable ?

Didn't your 'irony alert light' even flicker when, after chronicling complaints of mockery and attacks at UFO witnesses, an oblique insinuation about another UFO-related commentator is floated -- by YOU -- to question that guy's motives? Pot, meet kettle.

that was a open ended "oblique insinuation" with hopes of a positive reaction clarification by you but it's obvious from your response that you didn't recognize or seize the opportunity that was presented and can only interpret that as something negative.

Seemed to make sense to me, if not to you.

we already knew of that perspective, the oblique insinuation was displayed because your superior (Crow) was (correct me if i am wrong) obviously indulging in unethical public relations tomfoolery in regards to UFO's and considering your over all involvement , it seems unlikely that you would have no knowledge of that and would not be able to comment on it.

The report also suggested that if sufficient data was present, all reports could be as easily dismissed. Strangely, their conclusions went against several of the conclusions reached by the group as a whole

ufos.about.com...

whooo boy....gotta love that Robertson panel

Thanks for the replies -some very interesting documents, statements and observations there.

As well as the quotes posted by Spacevisitor and the one taken from CIA Director Hillenkoetter in the OP, there are some other intriguing ones below dealing with the CIA, the media and the ridicule factor.

"In view of the wide interest within the Agency ... outside knowledge of Agency interest in Flying Saucers carries the risk of making the problem even more serious in the public mind than it already is."
CIA memo, 1952



"The Central Intelligence Agency has reviewed the current situation concerning unidentified flying objects which have created extensive speculation in the press and have been the subject of concern to Government organizations... Since 1947, approximately 2,000 official reports of sightings have been received and of these, about 20% are as yet unexplained."
"It is my view that this situation has possible implications for our national security which transcend the interests of a single service. A broader, coordinated effort should be initiated to develop a firm scientific understanding of the several phenomena which apparently are involved in these reports..." (1952 memorandum to the National Security Council.)
General Walter Bedell Smith, Director of the CIA from 1950-53



"Maximum security exists concerning the subject of UFOs."
CIA Director, Allen Dulles, 1955.



"The real danger to the U.S. and perhaps this whole planet is the government has placed such a heavy blanket of secrecy upon this issue. So much secrecy, those in government who have knowledge showing UFOs are identifiable feel the subject cannot be discussed by those in the know without serious repercussions. Others are afraid their friends and co-workers will think they are crazy if they even so much as insinuate that UFOs are identifiable as manned craft from outside the earth.
This particularly applies to newspaper editors and publishers, reporters and analysts. Thus the U.S. is denying itself the chance to learn more about UFOs or to encourage research despite the fact the U. S. stands to gain from such discussions. . . "
Sarah McClendon, White House Correspondent, and Dean of the White House Press Corps--exerpts from a press release by McClendon on March 30, 1998



“Having spent a great deal of my life in the air, as a pilot... I know that many pilots... have seen phenomena that they could not explain. These men, most of whom have talked to me, have been very reticent to talk about this publicly, because of the ridicule that they were afraid would be heaped upon them... However, there is a phenomena here that isn't explained.”
Congressman Jerry L. Pettis - House Committee on Science and Astronautics hearing on UFOs,Ninetieth Congress, Second Sesson,July 29, 1968



"Certainly when I socialized with my RAF colleagues, I would find that they were a little bit more receptive to the idea of UFOs--and by that I mean perhaps even an extraterrestrial explanation for this -- than you might have supposed. One of the reasons for that was that so many RAF pilots had actually seen things themselves. Many of them have never made an official report. I had one chap tell me that he had seen something over the North Sea. I asked him why he hadn't reported it, and he said, 'I don't want to be known as Flying Saucer Fred for the rest of my career.'"
Nick Pope, headed up the "UFO desk" at Air Secretariat 2-A, British Ministry of Defense from 1991-1994



"All over the world credible witnesses are reporting experiences similar to mine. Holding these people up to ridicule does not alter the existing facts. The time is long overdue for accepting the presence of these things, whatever they are and dealing with them and the public on a basis of realism."
Frank Halstead, Former Curator of Darling Observatory, University of Minnesota


"Air Catalogue is a rather extensive library I’ve been collecting for almost 30 years from commercial, private, and test pilots. I have over 3,000 cases. My estimate is that for every pilot who does come forward, and makes a confidential or a public report, there are 20, 30 other pilots who don’t."
NASA Research Scientist, Dr. Richard Haines

Link

There's also an interesting article taken from this thread describing how Major Donald Keyhoe was forced to retire from NICAP by former CIA covert agent:

By 1969, Keyhoe turned his focus away from the military and focused on the CIA as the source of the UFO cover up. By December 1969, NICAP's board, headed by Colonel Joseph Bryan III, forced Keyhoe to retire as NICAP chief. Bryan was actually a former covert CIA agent who had served as founder and head of the CIA's psychological warfare division. Under Bryan's leadership, NICAP disbanded its local and state affiliate groups.

Link

How the Real NICAP began

Cheers.

Originally posted by easynow

we already knew of that perspective, the oblique insinuation was displayed because your superior (Crow) was (correct me if i am wrong) obviously indulging in unethical public relations tomfoolery in regards to UFO's and considering your over all involvement , it seems unlikely that you would have no knowledge of that and would not be able to comment on it.

In what way are you alleging that Crow was superior to me?

reply to post by karl 12



Great thread Karl 12 thanks for posting all this info

By 1969, Keyhoe turned his focus away from the military and focused on the CIA as the source of the UFO cover up. By December 1969, NICAP's board, headed by Colonel Joseph Bryan III, forced Keyhoe to retire as NICAP chief. Bryan was actually a former covert CIA agent who had served as founder and head of the CIA's psychological warfare division. Under Bryan's leadership, NICAP disbanded its local and state affiliate groups.

crazy ain't it ? they sent in a double agent to infiltrate and take over the organization and as we see the plan succeeded. it's obvious the CIA would stop at nothing to keep the ufo subject quiet.

Not only has the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency admitted its role in trying to "correct" public opinion about UFOs over the last half century, it now believes the policy caused "major problems" in dealing with the public.

In an internal report entitled "CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-90," agency historian Gerald K. Haines portrayed the CIA as consistently and deliberately working to suppress reports of unidentified aerial phenomena since modern UFO sightings began with the Kenneth Arnold case of 1947.

www.space.com...

reply to post by JimOberg


he was part of the Administrative team was he not ? were you ?

this is kinda getting off topic so perhaps another time is best.

Originally posted by easynow
reply to post by JimOberg

 

he was part of the Administrative team was he not ? were you ?

this is kinda getting off topic so perhaps another time is best.

This is another case of your imaginatioin outrunning your facts, so yes, I understand you want to stop talking about it once you're called out on it. You brought it up. You face the music for fantasizing facts, again.

Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by easynow
reply to post by JimOberg

 

he was part of the Administrative team was he not ? were you ?

this is kinda getting off topic so perhaps another time is best.

This is another case of your imaginatioin outrunning your facts, so yes, I understand you want to stop talking about it once you're called out on it. You brought it up. You face the music for fantasizing facts, again.

alright Mr. smarty pants i was trying to show some respect to karl 12 and not take the thread in a different direction then what he was intending but since you want to call me out here lets do it.




remember these ?

exactly which info is disputable ?

he was part of the Administrative team was he not ? were you ?

how many times will i have to keep reposting the same questions Jim ? do you have any intention of ever answering them or will you continue your game of jumping through hoops ?

maybe you won't answer those questions because the dog ate your evidence ?



[edit on 28-5-2010 by easynow]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I feel sorry for the guy and I've often said if I saw something amazing and didn't get a picture, I'd be reluctant to tell people about it, after reading about experiences like that.

Arbitrageur, I agree that the way both deputies were treated after the Portage County incident was pretty terrible - I'd also imagine it would make many other 'credible' individuals think twice before submitting a UFO report - as for a photograph of the object, apparently one was taken by Police Chief Gerald Buchert but the USAF told him not to release it (link).

The CIA do seem to pop up a lot when it comes to suppression of UFO evidence - there's an interesting story here about how 'men with CIA credentials' confiscated some other UFO photographs and informed the witness to keep quiet - there's also some very interesting testimony below from FAA Official John Callahan who describes how the CIA (and FBI) instructed him to 'forget' about evidence involved in the JAL 1628 UFO case.

UFO: A Cover Up No: 3 (Mr. John Callahan)

John Callahan, retired Division Manager, Accidents Evaluation and Investigation, Federal Aviation Administration in Washington, D.C.,was told by the CIA that the UFO case he was evaluating never happened and the general public was never to be informed of the incident.

The strange story of JAL 1628

Cheers.

Originally posted by easynow
crazy ain't it ? they sent in a double agent to infiltrate and take over the organization and as we see the plan succeeded. it's obvious the CIA would stop at nothing to keep the ufo subject quiet.

Hey bud, you're not wrong and I would imagine shutting down (or disbanding) NICAP would have been quite high on the priority list as the organisation produced some excellent work in the mid-sixties:

UFOs: A NEW LOOK - NICAP.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a74b5e6a20cb.jpg[/atsimg]

"One of the most significant developments since 1964 has been the increasing concern over the UFO problem demonstrated by professional scientists and engineers. The growing involvement of scientists insisting on a careful review of the evidence decreases the likelihood that the problem could or would be buried or glossed over in the future before a proper evaluation is made".

Link

The UFO Evidence - NICAP.

A synthesis is presented of data concerning Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) reported during the past 20 years through governmental, press and private channels. The serious evidence is clarified and analyzed. The data are reported by categories of specially trained observers and studied by patterns of appearance, performance and periodic recurrence.

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As for the CIA's relationship with the coporate media, it seems those pesky spooks were everywhere in the 1950's - here's what Richard Dolan had to say about it in his book 'UFOs and the National Security State'.

..In addition ,the history of the U.S. media shows unsettling developments,not least of which is penetration by the intelligence community.
By the early 1950s,the CIA had cosy relationships with most major media executives in America.
The most significant of these were with the New York Times, Washington Post, Christian Science Monitor, New York Herald Tribune, Saturday Evening Post, Miami Herald, Time-Life, CBS News, Scripps-Howard Newspapers, Hearst Newspapers, The Associated Press, United Press International, The Mutual Broadcasting System and Reuters.
In addition ,the CIA had major ownership over many proprietary publications throughtout Europe,Asia and the Americas.
By the early 1970s the agency admitted to having working relationships with over four hundred American journalists.
Consider the possiblities with four hundred strategically placed people throughout the mainstream media.
There is evidence that this relationship continues.

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Cheers.

Here's another interesting document citing the CIA's involvement with the Condon report and the subsequent instructions for Dr. Condon to hide CIA's participation in the work on photographic analysis.

See 4a

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