none beliver finds answer to how a perfect god created a imperfect

watch the there is no god threads verse the there is a god thread.
I call my self a none believer because it doesn't matter if there is a god and devil or not. if god or the devil is real so what they do nothing to help or hinder my or anyones life that i have ever seen proff of .
BUT i envy the people who truly believe at a time i did feel that way so this is from a none believer to you believers i hope it makes it even better for you .
disclaimer It was a friend who told me this credit goes to her not me.
as a now none believe I like many others have asked how could a perfect god create a imperfect being human or angle. and finely heres a answer to that question that accutly makes scence.
ONLY GOD Can be PERFECT wich meens unless he was making another god as his equal what he makes can ONLY BE LESS THEN HIM never more.
so no matter if he wanted to make a perfect angle or human he couldnt as they were less then GOD which ment they had to be imperfect .
ONLY GOD can be perfect is the moral to this theres no way for him to make a lesser being perfect as its lesser.
understand .;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
anyway it doesn't matter that im a none believer if god has chosen my friend to tell me this so you could know then what ever . because even if its all true so what im still lost and it doesnt change my life at all nore make me want to believe because even if i still did it wouldn't help at all if god is there he dont give a darn about you or me so what does it matter . but I wont denie your illusion if it makes you feel better because i envy you

I can't say that I see the logic in this.

This logic limits what "god" is capable of. Unless you're NOT describing an almighty and all-encompassing deity.

I mean


It's like people that claim god is incapable of lying, because everything god says immediately turns into truth? It doesn't make sense to me, because you would first-and-foremost have to identify with your insignificance. Your inability to comprehend the greatness of god, at all.

Yet, somehow, you're able to comprehend what god can and cannot do? When you haven't even had a chance to sit down and speak to god about all these claims, or even verify their truth.


I mean, in actuality, it is just as likely that god is a MALEVOLENT entity who is merely playing with humanity. Like some sort of really out-of-this-world psychological experiment. In reality, how well DO you know god? Do you know where god came from? His past? The things that influenced him? The factors that contributed to his mannerisms and demeanor?

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What I'm saying is god, as introduced religion, doesn't really leave much room for CREDIBLE human generated theories. Every other guy sees a completely different message and meaning than you do.

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IMO, if there is a god, and I'd like to believe there is some sort of force like that; it would be an evolutionary masterpiece, or some sort of mystical force. I like to believe god is equally capable of good or evil.

I mean, we were allegedly made in its image, no? We have the capacity to do horribly devastating things. Yet, we also have the potential to be unfathomably kind and generous.


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A lot of the times, the logic proposed for god is more of a logic that revolves around the theory-peddler not understanding a certain concept. And so, if THEY don't understand it or can't picture it, then how could anyone else?

[edit on 22-5-2010 by SentientBeyondDesign]

[edit on 22-5-2010 by SentientBeyondDesign]

reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign

It's like people that claim god is incapable of lying, because everything god says immediately turns into truth? It doesn't make sense to me, because you would first-and-foremost have to identify with your insignificance.

Actually this is a great argument if the God we're talking about is the God of the Bible because one of the commandments you get thrown into Hell for violating is Thou Shalt Not Lie and a God who doesn't follow his own commandments is pretty messed-up.

My favorite is that the God of the old testament kills a lot of people but then tells the Israelites killing is wrong. If its evil when people do it it should be considered EVEN MORE evil when a supposedly loving deity does it.

My question isn't how did a perfect God create imperfect beings its why did God then blame those beings when they turned out to be imperfect? God plants the tree in the middle of the Garden, doesn't give Adam or Eve the ability to determine right from wrong and then gets angry at THEM when they eat the fruit.

I can understand how ancient man fell hook line and sinker into believing these myths as literally true but no one in this day and age should take them literally and defend them as absolute truth.

reply to post by xxcalbier


It's too bad that you never got a good teaching from an honest pastor.

You are very mixed up as to who He is and why we are here.

Altho the universe is ver very old, the earth was reborn about 14000 yrs ago [ this is the 2nd earth age ], to test us because of the war in heaven....had there been no revolt and no war, then we would not be in these flesh bodies.

We are here being tested, to see who we are loyal to, who we will listen to, Yahweh or the world/satan.

God doesn't exist to fix us....we were created for His pleasure...He wants us to recognize Him and follow His laws.

Don't you want your children to love you? If you could force your children to love you, wouldn't that be fake love?

Christ [Yahweh in the flesh ] said, that His sheep would hear His voice and would know Him!

If you are stirred by, all of or some of His words or find them good or interesting or truthful but you still do not believe in Him, then you are denying yourself a connection with your Father!

There are no easy answers trying to understand on your own, but are much easier with a real Pastor should you decide to give it a try. I would stay away from the big churches.....the only one online that teaches the right way is shepherdschapel dot com. they have streaming and archived video as well as archive audio.

I started listening regularly when I heard him talk about the 3 earth ages, he got my attention and I haven't regretted a moment. It took a while to start putting the pieces together, but after I started making connections, it just got better each time I listened.

So, if you have the least bit of interest...just wait until you get yourself a fresh supply of patience, then give him a listen.


[edit on 22-5-2010 by toasted]

The biggest issue I'm having with this thread is the double standard. The fact that you're supporting both sides of the arguement doesn't help you in the least. You claim to be a "none believer" yet your whole thread is mainly pro-god.


Anyways to even get down and touch on this topic, there is no such thing as perfection, therefore (in the religious sense) there is no such thing as god. What implies perfect? Someone whom never does wrong, only does good? Well I hate to burst your religious bubble, but perceptions dictate that good and evil are non-existent. What may be considered something 'good' by some people, maybe be considered 'evil' by others. Another thing I never really got about 'God' is that if he is supposed to be such an omnipotent and perfect entity, then why is he jealous? (Yes, in the Bible it claims that god is a jealous god, hence why you shall worship no idol before him) Jealousy seems to be a rather humanistic trait for a 'god' to have. I'm going to just drop this here rather than continue on and end up writing a book on the horrible holes and flaws with religions and gods. Although I do support the concept of people believing in what they want, I also believe that some people are too dumb to be allowed to reproduce.

reply to post by Xilvius


The biggest issue I'm having is the grammar. Jeez. I'll just view this thread as another attack on Christianity due to illiteracy.

reply to post by Loken68


I dont need to attack anything. Not to mention it's a common defensive mechanism to attack things that don't even matter to the topic, like my grammatical errors rather than my valid points. My own personal preferances are mine, meaning you don't have to listen to them, and I would rather appriciate you drop your attacks against me, a singular person, rather than voicing your OPINION on the topic at hand.


EDIT: I couldn't help but notice you didn't even say anything about the topic, just had to make a rather questionable attack against my grammar. If I'm not mistaken, which I'm fairly sure I am not, that's called trolling.

[edit on 23-5-2010 by Xilvius]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


You said

""My question isn't how did a perfect God create imperfect beings its why did God then blame those beings when they turned out to be imperfect? God plants the tree in the middle of the Garden, doesn't give Adam or Eve the ability to determine right from wrong and then gets angry at THEM when they eat the fruit.""

Genesis 2

[15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It would appear that they only had one right and wrong choice that could be made............ Just do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil........ or thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3

2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

It appears that the women was told by Adam that she should not even touch it or lest ye die.

So the argument that they did not know right from wrong is a little far fetched as they knew that something would happen if they did not follow the commandment.

reply to post by Xilvius


So murder is considered good by some people??

Who are those people.

So torture is considered Good by those being tortured.

Being stole from is considered Good by some.

WRONG FORUM

www.abovetopsecret.com...

^That's where this thread belongs.

reply to post by ACTS 2:38


Actually yes, Those jihad artists believe that when they blow theirself up they are doing it for a good' reason. I'm not saying that EVERYTHING that has a negative connotation with it is perceived by someone as good, I'm saying that it's all about perspective. Alot of people would claim that killing is bad period, but I can almost assure you that if someone raped and murdered your 9 year old daughter, no matter how much you disapprove of murder part of you will want them dead.


It's all perspective.

reply to post by ACTS 2:38

It would appear that they only had one right and wrong choice that could be made............ Just do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil........ or thou shalt surely die.

God does not tell them which is right or which is wrong. God also doesn't bestow upon them any apparatus for determining which is right. To someone without the ability to tell right from wrong both choices seem equally benign and harmless - until God adds on the part about dying. Which, by the way, he lies about, for they do not die after eating the fruit and Adam supposedly lives to be 930 years old.

So the only reason Eve resists at all in Genesis 3 is because she assumes she will die if she eats the fruit. Read verse 2 and 3, she doesn't say anything about it being right or wrong to disobey God's command, she merely states that God has said not to touch the fruit or they will die. If she had any knowledge of Good and Evil at all she would have resisted much more wouldn't you say? Seems the serpent seduces her very quickly BECAUSE she doesn't know its wrong. The serpent alleviates the fear of the fruit bringing death and suddenly the choice to eat it seems benign and harmless again (maybe even beneficial as the serpent points out). This is actually a rather fascinating story because it shows that in the absence of moral knowledge people would collapse into a sort of reward vs. punishment system - benefit vs harm, pro vs. con.

So the argument that they did not know right from wrong is a little far fetched as they knew that something would happen if they did not follow the commandment.

Yes, they knew something would happen but that does not mean they understood it was wrong to eat the fruit. All they understood was that it would be bad because they would die, in the same way a parent might explain to a child that playing in the street or touching a hot stove top is bad - those things can get the child killed but are they truly MORALLY wrong?

So I think its pretty clear from the text that Adam and Eve were ignorant of Good and Evil. Only after they ate the fruit did they realize what they'd done was actually wrong.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I agree with what you're saying except the part about God lying to them. When God said they would die it wasn't meant to be an instantaneous death. It was a spiritual death; a separation from God, the relationship if you wish to call it that.

I don't know if I can believe that God made Adam and Eve to live eternally because there was still death in the Garden. He also told them to be fruitful and multiply but that was after the fall and was a punishment to Eve; at least the child bearing part.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


double post

[edit on 29-5-2010 by novastrike81]

reply to post by novastrike81

When God said they would die it wasn't meant to be an instantaneous death. It was a spiritual death; a separation from God, the relationship if you wish to call it that.

I've heard this interpretation before but I must disagree. Nowhere in the text is it implied or stated that the death would be a spiritual one. Also, the knowledge of good and evil is hardly one that brings spiritual death, if anything it offers spiritual enlightenment. Notice how helpless Eve is before she eats the fruit, she gets talked into disobeying by a talking snake

The other theory I've heard is that human beings were immortal and the fruit made it so that they would die.

The story makes very little sense if taken literally but it has some interesting figurative stuff going on.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Yeah, I'm not sure what way to go with it and I think a lot of the story is allegorical in nature. I can understand the spiritual death concept but it doesn't say it literally. Who knows? I think it's irrelevant to debate because everyone will believe what they want to believe. Some will swear by their life it's true and others take it in moderation. It's not like you're going to go to Hell because you disagree with the form of death depicted in Genesis.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


You are correct, it does not say spiritual death but it does say "in the day". So which day was He talking about? To get an understanding requires understanding of Job: 38:32. God did not lie, understand "the day".

(On topic) OP, God created all things perfict but also gave His creation free will. The right to choose either to follow and obey or not. We give our children the same choice. However if they choose to disobey their is punishment. No different with God and His creation.

Lucifers big problem was that he allowed pride to take hold of him. Pride always comes before a fall. All he had to do was ask God about things but no, he was too PROUD to do so and he fell. He compounded his error by then lieing. He is now known as the father of lies. He was perfict when created and had the choice but rebeled and took 1/3 of heaven with him via his lies. Just like Adam & Eve we have a choice to obey or not. God has put before us two choices, life or death, you choose. God has already said "I place before you Life and Death, why do you choose death?". Doesn't make any sence to me either.



[edit on 5/29/2010 by pstrron]