Time Traveler's Dilemma - Is the future fixed?

reply to post by Matrix Rising


now your trying to argue your case to me ..

big lol, dude, i really dont care, you already ruined this whole discussion by not wanting to discuss, for that i dont give one gram of crap what you have to say on this matter as you dont give one bit of crap on other peoples opinions.

If you did not want people to think this post was about time travel, maybe you shouldnt use time travel as the basis of your whole speculated situation!

remember, your the one who mentioned time travel in the OPENING POST! ... what do you think people are going to think!

reply to post by Matrix Rising

Why have other people realized that this was not about time travel? All you have to do is read the question I ask in the title of the post.

Gee, no duh! You used time travel as an example of determining the answer to your question. I refuted the time travel aspect of your post. Which coincidentally also refutes your own answer regarding the question itself. So, do you have any rebuttals to my refutation?

Again, other people discussed this question, why are you too slow to understand this?

Wow, great point! Yea, I'm one of those people, in fact I did a three post response to everything you've mentioned through the thread up to that point. Are you too slow to understand? Here, allow me to answer, yes, because others have also pointed out that your evading the points I've been raising with your inane bitching.

Again, it's about randomness and uncertainty.

You need to make up your mind about what you've been arguing with me about. Weren't we just discussing information and me attempting to get you to answer a single simple little question?

In what context are you discussing information when claiming it is unbound from space in time.

Seriously, what's so hard with answering that?

iS THE FUTURE FIXED?

I've already addressed this question in my three post response, which you have blatantly ignored, instead resorting to debating the person and opinion rather than the issue.

All you have to do is read the original post and if you understand anything about physics you will understand this. If you want to debate Einstein and you think your wild theories and speculation can overturn Einstein then start a thread.

Did you ever stop and think, gee, why do some people not subscribe to certain things? Mull that over and look at the recent research that I've posted in my three post rebuttal to your assertions.

The only person trolling here is yourself. I've been trying to get you to clarify one measly thing, your definition of information in context to unbounded by space and time as both assumptions on my behalf that are applicable at least from what I can gather, being knowledge and data were both shot down. One can't hold a meaningful intelligent discussion with you because you refuse to answer a simple damn question. My eight year old has more brains than that.

reply to post by boaby_phet


Why should I rename it? You're not smart enough to understand that I'm using Time Travel as a device to talk about randomness and uncertainty.

Let me ask you, if we were to discuss Maxwell's Demon, would you discuss demons or thermodynamics?

In my post I talked about a time traveling swami. You should know by reading the post that I'm not debating a time traveling swami but uncertainty and randomness.

It's not that hard to grasp.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising

That's why I say it's predetermined but not fixed.

You can't even get that right!

Predetermined is no different than saying something is 'fixed'. Grab a dictionary, look it up, learn something, move on knowing that you took a leap forward away from ignorance.

Say it with me. D-i-c-t-i-o-n-a-r-y.

dude, you called the post "Time travellers Dilema"

and your main focus to start the discussion was a STORY ABOUT TIME TRAVEL!

im with the last guy, learn to use propper grammar and a dictionary!

if your post was not about time travel then why even use the term time travel.

why not use a title like "Time - Fixed or random ? " as thats what your post is about, and that makes a hell of a lot more sence that the name you gave it.

TBH, i think you just like arguing with people, which is sad, ats is a discussion forum and not a forced thought and argument forum!

ps, sirnex is bang on, predetermined and fixed mean exactly the same thing!

just taKe the fact that its not the best thread, and that someone has a different theory to you and take it on the chin! then find something else to futily argue about!

and btw, if the thread actualy stayed on the topic i think you were meaning and i innitialy replied to, then it woudl be very interesting, but you ruined it, simple as that.

[edit on 18-5-2010 by boaby_phet]

reply to post by sirnex


No you didn't talk about randomness and uncertainty. You talked about some silly Entropy is everything theory and you said you don't subscribe to Einstein or Quantum mechanics and then you started posting links that have nothing to do with the debate.

If you want to push your entropy is everything theory then start a thread. I suggest you get some equations, published papers and tested theories if you think anyone will listen to your wild speculation over Einstein and Quantum mechanics.

I answered your question about information.

You said information doesn't exist in the past or future because of your everything is entropy theory.

I asked you did the information to build a car exist 2,000 years ago? Did quantum mechanics exist 2,000 years ago? Did relativity exist 2,000 years ago?

You said no because you don't subscribe to Einstein or Quantum mechanics (which doesn't make any sense because that isn't what I was asking).

My point is information isn't created when it's discovered. Relativity didn't come into existence when Einstein discovered it.

So if information is not created when it's discovered, where is it stored?

If you think information is created when it's discovered then you would be the first person that says this but that's understandable because you don't have any equations or published papers to back up that nonsense and you throw out Einstein, quantum mechanics and information theory.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by sirnex

 

So if information is not created when it's discovered, where is it stored?

erm ... im 100 % sure now, you just like argueing.

the answer to this is quite simple, if its not discovered then it does not yet exist, or it would have been discovered ... thus their is no need to store anything as it doesnt exist!

not only that, are you talking about how thoughts that never ever happened are stored? how can that even be possible, can you say paradoxial stupidity ?

answering questions with questions and throwing out silly paradox's that actualy make no sence really doesnt help anything.

dude, just give up .. please.

reply to post by sirnex


Again you're not making any sense.

pre·de·ter·mine (prd-tûrmn)
v. pre·de·ter·mined, pre·de·ter·min·ing, pre·de·ter·mines
v.tr.
1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: "These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome" (Jessica Mitford).

2. To influence or sway toward an action or opinion; predispose.
v.intr.

To determine or decide something in advance.

If you have a shred of common sense you would see predetermined doesn't mean fixed.

Just because I sway someone towards an action that doesn't mean that that action is fixed.

I can predetermine a bank robbery and set everything up perfectly, but that doesn't mean it's fixed and that the bank robbery will occur. When the robbery takes place an off duty police officer could enter the bank and stop the robbery.

So yes, the robbery was a predetermined event but it wasn't fixed because of uncertainty and randomness (the off duty police officer walking into the bank).

This is just common sense and I wish you would read a dictionary.


[edit on 18-5-2010 by Matrix Rising]

reply to post by boaby_phet


LOL!!!

This is a first.

So are you saying relativity didn't exist until Einstein wrote a paper?

Are you saying quantum mechanics didn't exist until Neils Bohr talked about it?

Where do you get this crazy stuff?

We just reverse engineer information that's already inherent in nature.

Where do you think the idea for nanotechnology came from? Nature.

You guys don't know what your talking about. Have you read Claude Shannon or anything on Information Theory?

reply to post by boaby_phet

the answer to this is quite simple, if its not discovered then it does not yet exist, or it would have been discovered ... thus their is no need to store anything as it doesnt exist!

Can you say no *#&$ Sherlock?

My answer *was* that information doesn't exist until it's discovered, please read the whole thread before you try to jump on me. The OP was asserting that information exists unbounded by space and time, my line of questioning towards the OP was that if such were true, then where did the information to build a car 2,000 years ago exist when it wasn't discovered until recent times.

Information as knowledge was shot down.
Information as data stored by some means (which was assumed based on his links) was unanswered.

As of right now, I'm still attempting to gain a response to clarify this issue so that aspect of the discussion can continue as he brought it up in this thread.

can you say paradoxial stupidity

Here, try this one. Can you say reading comprehension? I don't mean to get as insulting as you decided, but dude.... Seriously, know what your arguing before you argue it.

[edit on 18-5-2010 by sirnex]

reply to post by sirnex


You're like talking to a brick wall.

I just gave you an answer.

Now if you and the other guy have this silly and crazy idea that information is created when it's discovered then that's fine. There's all sorts of people with crazy ideas.

If you don't know that we reverse engineer information that's inherent in nature then that's just silly but like I said people are allowed to have crazy views.

So nanotechnology just popped into existence when somebody thought about it?

So information to build a car just popped into existence when someone thought about a car LOL?

So tell me, where is this information stored before it pops into existence or does it pop into existence out of nowhere?

I will give you a hint. It's something that your using on your computer right now and it rhymes with it's.

[edit on 18-5-2010 by Matrix Rising]

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Are you kidding? Come on, no one can possibly be that deluded or stupid.

link

Determinism is the philosophical view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by the environment. It is, in essence, the view that one's life is predetermined before one is even born. Determinism proposes there is a predetermined unbroken chain of prior occurrences back to the origin of the universe.

When wondering if the universes is predetermined or not, one is discussing predetermined as in Determinism.

Go back to school man!

Again, and I've lost count now, in what context do you define information when claiming information in unbounded by space and time? I's a simple question, why you having so much trouble with it?

reply to post by sirnex


Again, predetermined doesn't mean fixed in the example that I gave. If you read a dictionary you should know words can be used in different context and that's why I explained it to you.

Predetermined does not mean fixed.

Show me in this definition where predetermined means fixed because of uncertainty and randomness.

pre·de·ter·mine (prd-tûrmn)
v. pre·de·ter·mined, pre·de·ter·min·ing, pre·de·ter·mines
v.tr.
1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: "These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome" (Jessica Mitford).
2. To influence or sway toward an action or opinion; predispose.
v.intr.
To determine or decide something in advance.


Now your trying to debate what you want to debate not what I just explained to you.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


to be blunt, yes, in reality, relativity DOESNT exist, its a conceptual theory that einstien produced, and whats more has its own flaws which are most likely caused due to his faith / religious beliefs.

relativity, is just part of a name of a physics theory ... it coudl be called the theory of toffee bananna splits and could still demonstrate the exact same concepts.

reply to post by Matrix Rising

So tell me, where is this information stored before it pops into existence or does it pop into existence out of nowhere?

Already answered, please read my posts again.

The capacity for atoms to form together into the various parts of a car are bound by the laws of physics, meaning if it should happen it would happen if it's made to happen.

Hell, that was my *second* post. You either don't read or have the worst memory in all of human existence.

reply to post by sirnex


You said:

The capacity for atoms to form together into the various parts of a car are bound by the laws of physics, meaning if it should happen it would happen if it's made to happen.

First I have to laugh.

Secondly, I have to ask where does this capacity for atoms to form a car exist until a car is actually formed?




[edit on 18-5-2010 by Matrix Rising]

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Oh for the love of god and all that is holy!

pre·de·ter·mine
   /ˌpridɪˈtɜrmɪn/ Show Spelled[pree-di-tur-min] Show IPA
–verb (used with object),-mined, -min·ing.
1.
to settle or decide in advance: He had predetermined his answer to the offer.
2.
to ordain in advance; predestine: She believed that god had predetermined her sorrow.
3.
to direct or impel; influence strongly: His sympathy for the poor predetermined his choice of a career.

This definition falls into the concept of determinism. When one talks about a predetermined universe, one is talking about determinism When one is talking about determinism, one is talking about the future being fixed, read the wiki link.

When one constantly evades and argues from ignorant stupidity.... well, they just show how much they really know.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by sirnex

 

You said:

The capacity for atoms to form together into the various parts of a car are bound by the laws of physics, meaning if it should happen it would happen if it's made to happen.

First I have to laugh.

Secondly, I have to ask where does this capacity for atoms to form a car exist until a car is actually formed?

From the laws of physics (for lack of better words), and no I don't mean laws as is defined by human language. I mean the set forces and constants that pre-existed before any sentient life could impart "information" in the form of language or knowledge.

Again, your response begs me to ask you:

In what context do you define information when claiming information is unbounded by space and time?






[edit on 18-5-2010 by sirnex]

Originally posted by sirnex


First I have to laugh.

Secondly, I have to ask where does this capacity for atoms to form a car exist until a car is actually formed?

From the laws of physics (for lack of better words), and no I don't mean laws as is defined by human language. I mean the set forces and constants that pre-existed before any sentient life could impart "information" in the form of language or knowledge.

Again, your response begs me to ask you:

In what context do you define information when claiming information is unbounded by space and time?






[edit on 18-5-2010 by sirnex]

quoted for complete truth and common sence!

if something has never exist how can it be stored somewhere till it does exist, thats a paradox and paradoxies are just a problem which has not been answered correctly!

reply to post by sirnex


This truly illustrates that you're not listening.

The word predetermined has several different meanings. I explained what I was saying when I said Predetermined not fixed.

That's not good enough for you because you want to debate what you want to debate.

Just look at the definition you gave:

pre·de·ter·mine
   /ˌpridɪˈtɜrmɪn/ Show Spelled[pree-di-tur-min] Show IPA
–verb (used with object),-mined, -min·ing.
1.
to settle or decide in advance: He had predetermined his answer to the offer.
2.
to ordain in advance; predestine: She believed that god had predetermined her sorrow.
3.
to direct or impel; influence strongly: His sympathy for the poor predetermined his choice of a career.


I noticed that you only highlighted the second one because this is what you want to debate.

Look at the first one that says he predetermined his answer to the offer. What if the offer changes? Then his predetermined response will not make sense.

So predetermined does not mean fixed in the example I gave. So you can either debate what I explained or start your own thread debating what you want to debate.

pre·de·ter·mine (prd-tûrmn)
v. pre·de·ter·mined, pre·de·ter·min·ing, pre·de·ter·mines
v.tr.
1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: "These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome" (Jessica Mitford).
2. To influence or sway toward an action or opinion; predispose.
v.intr.
To determine or decide something in advance.