Time Traveler's Dilemma - Is the future fixed?

reply to post by Matrix Rising


It really doesn't matter how many hypothetical thought experiments that you come up with ... and over the years there have probably been a myriad of them.

In the final analysis, I would be willing to bet that time travel along a single time is absolutely, positively and unequivocally PROHIBITED by nature itself.

Why you ask ? how about because (amongst others), it violates ... no, it shatters ... the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle which is the cornerstone foundation of modern quantum mechanics.


[edit on 14/5/10 by tauristercus]

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Hey, wanna help me out with something?

HYPOCRITE

I'm having trouble finding the plug to that big ass neon sign there.

Are you seriously bitching there as an evasion tactic? How does bitching about one person not giving sources make another person non-sourced assertions any more valid or scientific? HUH?

Here is a 28 year study on Quasars showing no time dilation effects. link Now, obviously if Einsteinian physics is right, then time dilation applies for all objects in the universe. Quasars are an interesting phenomena in astrophysics as they disprove quite a lot of Eisnteinian physics. Without time dilation being observed, we can now unequivocally prove that time itself doesn't exist and that all perceptions of time is exactly what they are, a forward motion in entropy.

Now, regardless of showing a link or not, we're still left with a huge problem of you evading some very simple inquiries into your assertion.

So, how about you unplug that hypocrite sign and post YOUR sources proving that information to build a car exists 2,000 years ago. After all, like you said, this is the science forum, we wouldn't want anyone posting untrue and un-sourced nonsense, now would we?

FYI, a debate is not a one sided discussion and all angles of discussion are permissible. If you don't like people questioning your assertions, then you don't *have* to post your un-backed up assertions whilst hypocritically bitching that someone else didn't back up their counter arguments.

You still haven't grown up yet have you?

reply to post by sirnex


Again, you're not making any sense and it's useless trying to debate you in a science and technology forum if you're going to throw out everything from Einstein to Quantum Mechanics without a shred of evidence to support your assertions.

That's like saying we are going to debate the moon but we can't talk about the moon.

Of course your not going to get or accept what I'm saying if you throw out Einstein, Quantum mechanic, Information theory and more.

Think of how silly this sounds. You want to debate physics but you say we first need to throw out quantum mechanics, Einstein, information, theoretical physics and more. It's just idiotic. I didn't come here to debate your beliefs.

I'm always open to new theories and if you have evidence that will cause the world to throw out everything from quantum mechanic to Einstein then I suggest you present it to the world. Until then we come here to debate physics and not your belief system. It's just idiotic to think we are going to debate these things based on your belief and not based on physics that has been published, peer reviewed, tested and we use it everyday in everything from DVD players to Computers.

Now, the paper you linked to about Quasars has been discussed and it's obvious you don't understand what you're reading. Yes time dilation occurs and it's been confirmed. The question is why doesn't occur in Quasars.

Here's the first line from the article you quoted.

The phenomenon of time dilation is a strange yet experimentally confirmed effect of relativity theory.

Again, the question is why doesn't it occur in Quasars.

It then says something interesting.

One of Hawkins’ possible explanations for quasars’ lack of time dilation is that light from the quasars is being bent by black holes scattered throughout the universe. These black holes, which may have formed shortly after the big bang, would have a gravitational distortion that affects the time dilation of distant quasars. However, this idea of “gravitational microlensing” is a controversial suggestion, as it requires that there be enough black holes to account for all of the universe’s dark matter.

There's a theory that I give weight to called Randall-Sundrum. It says that black holes that formed in the early universe didn't evaporate. Lisa Randall's book Warped Passages is a very good read.

Again, time dilation is confirmed. The question is why it doesn't occur in Quasars.

We're here to debate physics, not your beliefs. If you think everything we know about physics and information should be thrown out, I suggest you come up with some equations and tests and get published. For now I will keep typing on my computer and watching my DVD's thanks to quantum mechanics and Einstein.

[edit on 14-5-2010 by Matrix Rising]

reply to post by tauristercus


The thought experiment isn't about time travel but uncertainty and randomness and how the universe isn't fixed or deterministic.

Let's talk about time travel though. I do think time travel can be acheived in a couple of ways.

1. Virtual reality and full immersion. We could create ancestor simulations that we could full immerse ourselves in. So you could be a Pharoah of Egypt or you could be sitting at the Sands watching the Rat Pack perform. We could time travel to the past and future via virtual reality because information from the past and future exists.

2. If we discover how to harness dark energy or zero point energy we may be able to warp space-time and travel through these warped passsages.

How would either of these examples violate Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle?

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Less bitching and more backing up your claims, please.

I figured after the last time I dealt with your childish immature dodge tactics that you'd finally grow up. I really need to stop assuming the best of people.


[edit on 14-5-2010 by sirnex]

The future is not set in stone until it becomes the past. No one can determine the choices another makes and how it will play out. On the other hand, The future can only be changed far enough back and (only certain scenarios too) that the man initiation the change will not be affected in any way leading up to his trip back to the future. There would have to be special groups of men who stay disconnected from the outside world and only do what they are told back in time. If they change something too far back they may never be born to initiate the change in the first place.

reply to post by sirnex


Again, you're trying to say let's debate physics without talking about physics.

That's like saying let's debate the moon or let's debate black holes but we can't talk about the moon or black holes. It's just idiotic nonsense. I'm not going to throw out everything we know about physics and information because of your wild belief and silly speculation.

You said:

we can now unequivocally prove that time itself doesn't exist and that all perceptions of time is exactly what they are, a forward motion in entropy.

This is just utter nonsense.

If you have the equations, published papers and tested theories to support your assertion that quasers don't show time dilation because of entropy, then present it.

I can read the works of Einstein, Maxwell, Schrodinger, Shannon and more.

I'm sure ATS has forums that cater to wild theories and speculation but you can't come into a science and technology forum and debate physics by first saying we need to throw out everything we know about physics and instead debate your silly, unequivocal assertions.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Less bitching and more backing up your claims, please.

I figured after the last time I dealt with your childish immature dodge tactics that you'd finally grow up. I really need to stop assuming the best of people.

reply to post by sirnex


I have backed up my claims but of course you're not going to understand it or accept it if you throw out everything from Quantum mechanics to Einstein.

It's like saying let's debate The Sopranos finale but we can't talk about The Sopranos finale LOL.

Sorry, I'm not going to throw out Einsten, Heisenberg, Shannon and Schrodinger in favor of your wild speculation.

When you have your equations, published papers and tested theories, I'm open to look over them, until then I will stick with the physics that has given us our modern world instead of just "throwing them out."

reply to post by Matrix Rising


You have not posted a single link showing that information about how a car is constructed existed 2,000 years ago, nor have you bothered to define 'information' adequately.

You keep saying information, information, information. Information in what CONTEXT? Knowledge, data, what? Define that and I can discuss that. When you don't bother to define or clarify, then how is anyone supposed to know what your rambling about?

So, again, I'm asking you to grow the hell up and define information and to cite sources. You've done neither. All you've been doing for the last six posts now is childishly bitched about *NOTHING*.

Please for once, grow up! Enough dodging, enough dicking around, enough circle jerking with your buddies. I'm not asking anything too much for you, just a little clarification. You don't realize, the more you beat around the bush, evade, dodge, etc, the more you hurt your credibility.

All your doing is showing the fellow members in this thread how you CAN'T back up your assertions. exclaiming, because I said so and I refuse to be a forward thinking individual despite recent discoveries is not backing up your claim. It's you looking retarded, as usual.

Can always count on your childish antics.

reply to post by ModestThought


I see what you're saying.

I think the future is predetermined but not fixed because of uncertainty and randomness.

So our world line spreads out from past to future but we experience it from moment to moment.

We do have access to our future because our minds are not bound by linear time. This is out higher dimensional consciousness. This is your thoughts, ideas, memories, dreams and more. This is what we call the Paranormal.

Psi effects have been confirmed and this is why we have things like ESP or psychics.

Here's Dean Radin talking about Psi.
www.youtube.com...

I think there's those who want to live in a box and no amount of research will convince them and others are just seeking the truth.

Here's another good link.
www.parapsych.org...

These things are easily explained in the context of extra-dimensions. Good books to read are:

The Conscious Universe by Dean Radin
The Extra-Dimensional Universe: Where the Paranormal Becomes the Normal by John Violette
Entangled Minds by Dean Radin

I know some people want determinism so they look to Parallel universes, but Parallel universes doesn't give you determinism. Decoherence doesn't say anything about the choice of the observer. Also, you can't put a boundary on Infinity.

So, if I hit a home run in one universe that doesn't mean I will strike out in another universe.

I could hit a home run in one universe where I run the bases
I could hit a home run where I trip over 2nd base and break my leg
I trip over 1st base in one universe
I trip over 2nd base in another universe
In one universe I jump on home plate and raise my hands and celebrate
In another universe, I run over home plate and celebrate
In one universe I run in front of the second baseman
In another universe I run behind the second baseman

It can go on and on

This is why the universe is based on uncertainty and randomness. You can't put a boundary on infinity.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by ModestThought

 

I see what you're saying.

I think the future is predetermined but not fixed because of uncertainty and randomness.

So our world line spreads out from past to future but we experience it from moment to moment.

We do have access to our future because our minds are not bound by linear time. This is out higher dimensional consciousness. This is your thoughts, ideas, memories, dreams and more. This is what we call the Paranormal.

Psi effects have been confirmed and this is why we have things like ESP or psychics.

Here's Dean Radin talking about Psi.
www.youtube.com...

I think there's those who want to live in a box and no amount of research will convince them and others are just seeking the truth.

Here's another good link.
www.parapsych.org...

These things are easily explained in the context of extra-dimensions. Good books to read are:

The Conscious Universe by Dean Radin
The Extra-Dimensional Universe: Where the Paranormal Becomes the Normal by John Violette
Entangled Minds by Dean Radin

I know some people want determinism so they look to Parallel universes, but Parallel universes doesn't give you determinism. Decoherence doesn't say anything about the choice of the observer. Also, you can't put a boundary on Infinity.

So, if I hit a home run in one universe that doesn't mean I will strike out in another universe.

I could hit a home run in one universe where I run the bases
I could hit a home run where I trip over 2nd base and break my leg
I trip over 1st base in one universe
I trip over 2nd base in another universe
In one universe I jump on home plate and raise my hands and celebrate
In another universe, I run over home plate and celebrate
In one universe I run in front of the second baseman
In another universe I run behind the second baseman

It can go on and on

This is why the universe is based on uncertainty and randomness. You can't put a boundary on infinity.

Can you provide any peer reviewed scientifically verified research papers rather than youtube links and people who claim to have psychic powers?

reply to post by sirnex


Please stop acting like a troll on the thread.

I backed up what I'm saying and there's no point in debating you when you say things like this:

I don't quiet understand what your trying to tell me there. I personally don't subscribe to Einsteinian physics.

or:

I personally don't subscribe to QM, so my answer would be no.

or:

I personally don't subscribe to the notion that the universe is some gigantic quantum computer.

You didn't even read what M.I.T. Professor Seth Lloyd said about information.

or:

I personally do not subscribe to notions of time as a dimension of travel, which for me is probably why I'm having trouble grasping your concept.

DUH! Of course you're not going to get or understand what I'm saying. How can we discuss physics without talking about physics? That's like debating Saturn but we can't talk about Saturn.

When it comes to Psi effects, the links I posted show peer reviewed papers, experiments and Journals. If you would stop and read instead of just responding you would see this.

Look, you have a right to throw out quantum mechanics and Einstein and replace it with wild speculation, but I come here to discuss physics. If you see others have talked physics. So you have already said you don't accept quantum mechanics, Einstein and more. I accept that and I accept that you will not understand what I'm talking about because you just throw out these things.

So please stop trolling and let others discuss physics.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Matrix Rising]

ive always thought the best way to think about time travel is the infinate alternate dimensions theory..

basicly, we all live in our own dimension, but for every choice that could happen that choice branches off into its own dimension.

if we were to time travel, well, we cant, as time does not exist, but the moment that has been lived does exist , and by traveling dimensions we could travel to dimension which is 5 years ago or 500 years ago!

also, in the multi dimensions, that also flattly kills the paradox of "if i go back in time and kill myself will i cease to exist" ... and as we know that will not happen, as nothing ever has ever been reported to just vanish into a puff of logic, thus multi dimensions of time makes even more sence!

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Can you provide any peer reviewed scientifically verified research papers rather than youtube links and people who claim to have psychic powers?

I can play as long as you want me to. It's a simple valid request.

but I come here to discuss physics.

Yea, well unfortunately for you, the problem with time is a *physics* based issue that has developed from attempts to reconcile quantum gravity with Einsteinian physics. So, if you want to discuss physics, how about you start discussing CURRENT physics rather than a nearly hundred year old model of the universe.

Seriously, [snip] Asking you to cite sources and back up your assertions is not a horrible thing. It's the PROPER thing to do when you make a claim.

[snip] and back up your claims with peer reviewed verified research instead of youtube videos and people who claim to be psychic.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by sirnex]



Edited uncivil comments

[edit on 22/5/10 by masqua]

Not sure if this is the right thread to share this but I had a really vivid dream about time travel last night.

I was a professor trying to work out how to compensate for the fact that not only is the Earth rotating on it's axis, there is also the precessional motion to think about. On top of that, the earth is orbiting the sun in a slightly irregular orbit. Not to mention the fact that our solar system and in fact everything in the known universe is moving outward due to something we don't yet understand but we think might be the result of the big bang. Basically I was trying to figure out how not to appear floating in the middle of empty space when traveling into the past because lets face it, the earth would not be where it was when you left your present time.

No idea what would cause me to dream about time travel but I woke up with my brain hurting. Sorry for the tangent. :p

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Goatface]

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by tauristercus

 

The thought experiment isn't about time travel but uncertainty and randomness and how the universe isn't fixed or deterministic.

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood the point of your thread but YOU actually were the one who mentioned Swami doing a bit of time travelling ...

Say you have a time traveler called Swami. Swami can traverse the 4th dimension and this means he can travel up and down our world line. He can see the future just by traveling 24 hours into the future and seeing what choices we will make.

... in which case I stand by my statement that because Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle would be violated (badly), that nature, in order to prevent this happening, would absolutely forbid time traveling along a single time line.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Yes I lived in ancient Sumeria and had a television, haha. I thought it was cute.
But I think what you're quoting the chaos theory in your original post.

reply to post by sirnex


I see now that I have to put you on ignore.

I backed up what I'm saying, but if you don't accept quantum mechanics, Einstein, information theory, theoretical physics and more, then of course you're not going to get or understand what I'm saying. You said:

I don't quiet understand what your trying to tell me there. I personally don't subscribe to Einsteinian physics.

DUH!

Like I said, I'm open to new theories and ideas but if you're going to throw out everything we know about physics at least have some equations, peer reviewed papers and tested theories for us to look over.

Again, you're trying to debate physics without talking about physics and you look silly.

We virtually ignore the astonishing range of scientific and practical applications that quantum mechanics undergirds: today an estimated 30 percent of the U.S. gross national product is based on inventions made possible by quantum mechanics, from semiconductors in computer chips to lasers in compact-disc players, magnetic resonance imaging in hospitals, and much more.

www.scientificamerican.com...

Why should I throw out quantum mechanics in favor of your wild speculation? It's just idiotic.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Matrix Rising]

reply to post by tauristercus


I see, you're saying because of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal the Swami would not be able to travel back on forth on a single time line?

Like I said, the thought experiment was more about randomness and uncertainty but your question about time travel is an interesting one.

I want to make sure that this is what you're saying. If so, it backs up what I'm saying. The point is the Swami couldn't guess correctly each time even from his point of view because of uncertainty and randomness.

Are you saying time travel is forbidden by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? If so I don't agree with that but I would like you to elaborate on why Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle prohibits time travel if that is what you believe.