Mary"s Perpetual Virginity

Its my understanding and what my church teaches that Mary abstained from sexual relations and bore no other children after the birth of her son Jesus.However, Matthew 1:25 states that Mary's Husband, Joseph "Knew her not until she had borne a son; and called his name Jesus. Wouldn't this suggest that Mary must have had marital relations with Joseph after Jesus was born.If this is the case, and Mary did have sexual relations after Jesus' birth and bore children, What child would be worthy of sharing the same dignity as Jesus(God) dwelling and growing in her womb?
Any thoughts?

My thoughts are that there is no evidence, historical account or scientific explanation for a virgin birth ever occurring. If we were talking about astronomical celestial bodies then a least it would make more sense. Otherwise it's a myth with no credibility.

I never understood the doctrine of perpetual virginity. Like you bring up, the Bible mentions Mary and Joseph had marital relations after the birth of Jesus. Then, the Gospels later mention Jesus' younger siblings.

Do you know where the belief originated and why?

reply to post by oliveoil


It's a Lie, the Word says that James is Jesus's half-brother, that would make Mary his mother.

Originally posted by AshleyD
I never understood the doctrine of perpetual virginity. Like you bring up, the Bible mentions Mary and Joseph had marital relations after the birth of Jesus. Then, the Gospels later mention Jesus' younger siblings.

Do you know where the belief originated and why?

No, however I assume and agree with the early church that its a sign of her total consecration to God and of respect for the fact that God himself had dwelt and grew within her that she would have left it at that.Who else would have been worthy of sharing the same womb as God.?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by oliveoil

 

It's a Lie, the Word says that James is Jesus's half-brother, that would make Mary his mother.

I have always thought that James was the son of another Mary. Mt 28:1.

Originally posted by oliveoil
However, Matthew 1:25 states that Mary's Husband, Joseph "Knew her not until she had borne a son; and called his name Jesus. Wouldn't this suggest that Mary must have had marital relations with Joseph after Jesus was born.

To be honest, I think that this logic is correct, and that no dishonour is done either to Mary or to Jesus by the idea that she bore later children.

For that matter, the disciples were unworthy of sharing a meal with him- but they shared it, anyway.

Isn't part of the point of the Incarnation that God bridges the gap between himself and our unworthiness?

Don't forget we only get to see a translation, and many words are infused with cultural depths which cannot be completely conveyed in another language.

Mary was a young woman, betrothed, but still unwed. The original word used to describe such a woman conveyed both the meanings of unwed and virgin, because for a woman to not be a virgin when she was still unwed was unthinkable. As the church, when assembling the texts to be regarded as the bible and authorising translations, wanted a figure in their religion who could rival a certain pagan virgin mother goddess, they chose to have the word translated as virgin.

Much of what we hear about Jesus has been mutated from the original story, and much has been deleted.

Honestly, until you mentioned it I thought the consensus was that Jesus had other siblings. Mary had given birth to Jesus as a virgin but there after had a fairly normal married relaitonship with her husband.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Bible mention the rest of Jesus's family? I seem to remember a passage where his siblings are outside begging him to come out, I don't care to go looking for it right now.

Or maybe the Bible left something out, it was originally "Virgin" Mary, it was a sarcastic title and Joseph was the chump who didn't know about Mary's past, that's why the gospel mentions Jesus's "half-brother", they shared a mother but not a father.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Then, the Gospels later mention Jesus' younger siblings.
Do you know where the belief originated and why?

Source please.
Version of Bible, chapter and verse please.
Also Mod, what does Disraeli bring to the OP?
Is this where the ALERT button comes into use?

reply to post by Shadowflux


Yes... Scripture is clear that He had half brothers and sisters... Yakov (james) who was the bishop of Jerusalem was one of them, so was a man Called Judah... Its clear He had sisters too..

Matthew 13:55 (New International Version)

55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.

More at Link: www.gotquestions.org...

Originally posted by Violater1
Also Mod, what does Disraeli bring to the OP?
Is this where the ALERT button comes into use?

May I ask what you're talking about?
"Alert" about what, exactly?
And what does "bring to" mean?
I thought I addressed her query.


[edit on 7-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by Violater1


Disraeli's posts are fine IMO. Not sure what the problem is. (?) If you have an issue, please use the alert feature. Staff cannot moderate threads where we participate as a member even if total chaos breaks out (which that post doesn't seem to do). lol

As for your question...

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Luke 8:19 Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.

Matthew 13:55-56 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren’t all his sisters with us?

Galatians 1:19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

Etc., etc.

Respectfully, I thought it was common knowledge (?). I'm non-denominational Protestant if that helps.

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by oliveoil

 

It's a Lie, the Word says that James is Jesus's half-brother, that would make Mary his mother.

I have always thought that James was the son of another Mary. Mt 28:1.

No, the James you refer to is James the Apostle, one of the 12. The James I'm referring to, is Jesus's half-brother who wrote the Book of James in the NT. Jesus's half-brother James was not a believer during the life of Christ but became one after His death and resurrection.

In fact, 4 of the Lord's half-brothers are mentioned in the Word: James, Joses, Simon and Jude. So to claim Mary remained a virgin her entire life is to completely disregard scripture that plainly says otherwise. She had 4 other sons besides Jesus.

Mary is a virgin, was, is, and will always be. The translation from ancient Hebrew, into Greek, into Latin, and then finally, into many other languages, leaves a few mysteries that need to be explained. This is one of the few. Ancient Greek did not have a word for brother or sister; they did have a word for male or female relative. Male and female relative (like the story where Jesus is inside the Tax Collectors home, when someone tells Him that his brothers are outside.Or, the ones that AshleyD quote) was interpreted to be brother or sister. Even the name Jesus, is a translituralization combining Ancient Greek and Latin. Debatable, His name in ancient Hebrew is Messiah Yashushua. Further reading can be found here on His name. www.wwyd.org...
How would someone be so shallow to think that The Holy Ghost would share his Wife! You don't mess with The Holy Ghost!
This subject will not be settled in this forum, but will continue, with passion, as it has in the last 200 years.


[edit on 7-5-2010 by Violater1]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by oliveoil

 

It's a Lie, the Word says that James is Jesus's half-brother, that would make Mary his mother.

I have always thought that James was the son of another Mary. Mt 28:1.

No, the James you refer to is James the Apostle, one of the 12. The James I'm referring to, is Jesus's half-brother who wrote the Book of James in the NT. Jesus's half-brother James was not a believer during the life of Christ but became one after His death and resurrection.

In fact, 4 of the Lord's half-brothers are mentioned in the Word: James, Joses, Simon and Jude. So to claim Mary remained a virgin her entire life is to completely disregard scripture that plainly says otherwise. She had 4 other sons besides Jesus.

It is Joseph whose past wife (deceased) who bore him his sons: James, Joses, Simon and Jude. They were not Mary's children. The only son she gave birth to Is The Son of G_D.

I have always thought that the term "brothers" or brethren was used of not his siblings rather close relations of Jesus according to an OT expression like in Gen 13:8,14:16,29:15. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Mary had other children.

reply to post by oliveoil

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Mary had other children.

But I'm not sure where it states she was an eternal virgin either. 'Know' is a euphemism for sex and it states Joseph 'knew' Mary after she gave birth to Jesus, like in your OP.

It's my belief she did have other children but we can put that debate aside right now and focus on the main question. I don't see anything enforcing the perpetual virginity doctrine of Mary- the opposite seems to be implied.

Although I think she had children, you can still have sex without having children, and it sounds like Mary and Joseph did.

?

Originally posted by Violater1

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by oliveoil

 

It's a Lie, the Word says that James is Jesus's half-brother, that would make Mary his mother.

I have always thought that James was the son of another Mary. Mt 28:1.

No, the James you refer to is James the Apostle, one of the 12. The James I'm referring to, is Jesus's half-brother who wrote the Book of James in the NT. Jesus's half-brother James was not a believer during the life of Christ but became one after His death and resurrection.

In fact, 4 of the Lord's half-brothers are mentioned in the Word: James, Joses, Simon and Jude. So to claim Mary remained a virgin her entire life is to completely disregard scripture that plainly says otherwise. She had 4 other sons besides Jesus.

It is Joseph whose past wife (deceased) who bore him his sons: James, Joses, Simon and Jude. They were not Mary's children. The only son she gave birth to Is The Son of G_D.

If what you claim were true, then those men would be of no relation to Jesus. But in fact, they are called his Half-brothers, and since Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God, they therefore become children of Mary. In order for someone to be a "half" brother or sister they need to share 1 common parent. In this case it was obviously Mary, since the Father begat only Jesus Christ.