Young Aussie genius whipping NASA in Moon Hoax Debate!

Originally posted by FoosM
You should pay closer attention next time.

There are 400 pages in this thread. I was lucky to remember even that radiation thing you kept insisting Jarrah never got wrong, nuh-uh, no sir. If you can't remember even roughly what page it's on-no shame in that-just say so, and I might have a look myself.

Originally posted by FoosM
Watch Jarrah's videos on HAM radios and why the Soviets didnt expose the fraud.
Then you can get back to us with your analysis on his findings.

Let me try your technique: these videos are of Phil Webb discussing Jarrah's claims.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter

Originally posted by 000063I honestly find it amazing that you think throwing random words around and going " Pull your head out of the sand, mate!" is a valid argumentative technique, in lieu of things like "facts" and "reason".

en.wikipedia.org...

The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA, /ˈnæsə/) is an executive branch agency of the United States government, responsible for the nation's civilian space program and aeronautics and aerospace research.

The "military-industrial" complex is so vaguely defined by you as to encompass effectively every gov't agency ever. NASA itself, while gov't run and employing, on occasion, military personnel, is not itself a military agency. Put down those goalposts.

Here are the goal posts. 1958 and 1961. The historical record confirms the existence of the military-industrial complex. The American's space effort was born out national defense some 50 years ago.

By that argument, you're using a military network right now. It's called "the Internet".

How did NASA pluck it's military trained astronauts out of the ocean? I didn't see any "civvies" out there in scuba gear

NASA is run by the Executive Branch of the gov't, so I imagine the President ordered them to. Or they made an arrangement with the Navy ahead of time. How would that be evidence of military control?

Time for some history...... and some "civilian spin"

The Birth of NASA: November 3, 1957–October 1, 1958
President Eisenhower spoke on television on November 7 as Sputnik I and Sputnik II orbited Earth. He displayed a missile nose cone recovered after a suborbital flight on a Jupiter-C rocket a few days before. Eisenhower's prepared statement focused on improving science and technology education, and he announced the appointment of Dr. James R. Killian, Jr., the president of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, as his Special Assistant for Science and Technology. Killian's appointment was interpreted in Congress as a determination to put a civilian spin on the growing debate over the future course of U.S. space exploration. Source history.nasa.gov...

On December 30, James Killian wrote a memorandum to Eisenhower in which he noted that many scientists held "deeply felt convictions" opposing Defense Department control of the space program because they felt it would limit space research strictly to military objectives and would tar all U.S. space activity as military in nature. He then offered some organizational alternatives for space that he believed would provide "the means for non-military basic space research while at the same time taking advantage of the immense resources of the military missile and recon satellite programs." Killian proposed a Defense Department operated "central space laboratory with a very broad charter," which he likened to the Los Alamos National Laboratory. Source history.nasa.gov...

The National Aeronautics and Space Act (Pub.L. 85-568), the United States federal statute that created NASA, was signed into on July 29, 1958.

Speaking of which:

In a speech to a joint session of Congress on April 2, Eisenhower called for a NACA-based civilian National Aeronautics and Space Agency (NASA). He also handed down a directive ordering the NACA and the Defense Department to begin arranging the transfer of nonmilitary Department of Defense space assets to the NACA.
+++
On May 5, NACA chair James A. Doolittle testified to the House Committee on Astronautics and Space Exploration that the U.S. civilian space program had "two focused objectives—gaining scientific data using automated probes and sending into space craft that will carry men on voyages of exploration."

Weird how you missed that on the page you quoted.

Dwight D. Eisenhower Farewell Address delivered 17 January 1961
[speech goes here]
Source: www.americanrhetoric.com...

So the farewell address of his Presidency refers to the military-industrial complex, therefore an agency he created during his time in office is military, and/or part of said complex?

Is NASA currently, or was it in 1969, a branch of the United States Armed forces? You seem to be contradicting your own sources here, which clearly state, twice, that NASA's predecessor was a civilian agency.

reply to post by 000063



That has to be about the worst effort at debunking I have seen..
Big on BS and very short on facts..

NASA. NRO. USAF. CIA. Military-industrial complex?

Secret Space Shuttles
When you’re 200 miles up, it’s easy to hide what you’re up to.
By Michael Cassutt
Air & Space Magazine, August 01, 2009

Between 1982 and 1992, NASA launched 11 shuttle flights with classified payloads, honoring a deal that dated to 1969, when the National Reconnaissance Office—an organization so secret its name could not be published at the time—requested certain changes to the design of NASA’s new space transportation system. The NRO built and operated large, expensive reconnaissance satellites, and it wanted a bigger shuttle cargo bay than NASA had planned.

“NRO requirements drove the shuttle design,” says Parker Temple, a historian who served on the policy staff of the secretary of the Air Force and later with the NRO’s office within the Central Intelligence Agency. The Air Force signed on to use the shuttle too, and in 1979 started building a launch pad at Vandenberg Air Force Base in northern California for reaching polar orbits. Neither the Air Force nor the NRO was ever comfortable relying exclusively on NASA’s vehicle, however. Source: www.airspacemag.com...

Here is the industrial part.

Col. Willard F. Rockwell made his fortune with the invention and successful launch of a new bearing system for truck axles in 1919. He merged his Oshkosh, Wisconsin-based operation with the Timken-Detroit Axle Company in 1928, rising to become chairman of its board in 1940.

The various Rockwell companies list a large number of firsts in their histories, including the World War II P-51 Mustang fighter and the B-25 Mitchell bomber, and the Korean War-era F-86 Sabre, as well as the Apollo spacecraft, the B-1 Lancer bomber, the Space Shuttle, and most of the Navstar Global Positioning System satellites. Rocketdyne, which had been spun off by North American in 1955, was re-merged into Rockwell in 1984, and by that time produced most of the rocket engines used in the United States.

With the death of company founder and first CEO Willard Rockwell in 1978, and the stepping down of his son Willard Rockwell, Jr. in 1979 as the second CEO, Bob Anderson became CEO and led the company through the 1980s when it became the largest U.S. defense contractor and largest NASA contractor. Source: Wiki

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter
NASA. NRO. USAF. CIA. Military-industrial complex?

What did I tell you about that? No more throwing random words together to try and form a link in the reader's mind. It's a cheap rhetorical technique, and one used in lieu of actual logic.

Secret Space Shuttles
When you’re 200 miles up, it’s easy to hide what you’re up to.
By Michael Cassutt
Air & Space Magazine, August 01, 2009

Between 1982 and 1992, NASA launched 11 shuttle flights with classified payloads, honoring a deal that dated to 1969, when the National Reconnaissance Office—an organization so secret its name could not be published at the time—requested certain changes to the design of NASA’s new space transportation system. The NRO built and operated large, expensive reconnaissance satellites, and it wanted a bigger shuttle cargo bay than NASA had planned.

“NRO requirements drove the shuttle design,” says Parker Temple, a historian who served on the policy staff of the secretary of the Air Force and later with the NRO’s office within the Central Intelligence Agency. The Air Force signed on to use the shuttle too, and in 1979 started building a launch pad at Vandenberg Air Force Base in northern California for reaching polar orbits. Neither the Air Force nor the NRO was ever comfortable relying exclusively on NASA’s vehicle, however. Source: www.airspacemag.com...

Um, if the military controls the agency, or is a part of the armed forces itself, why would they have to make a "deal" or any sort? Also, the NRO is intelligence, not military. It's pretty much the difference between the CIA and the US Marines.

Here is the industrial part.

Col. Willard F. Rockwell made his fortune with the invention and successful launch of a new bearing system for truck axles in 1919. He merged his Oshkosh, Wisconsin-based operation with the Timken-Detroit Axle Company in 1928, rising to become chairman of its board in 1940.

The various Rockwell companies list a large number of firsts in their histories, including the World War II P-51 Mustang fighter and the B-25 Mitchell bomber, and the Korean War-era F-86 Sabre, as well as the Apollo spacecraft, the B-1 Lancer bomber, the Space Shuttle, and most of the Navstar Global Positioning System satellites. Rocketdyne, which had been spun off by North American in 1955, was re-merged into Rockwell in 1984, and by that time produced most of the rocket engines used in the United States.

With the death of company founder and first CEO Willard Rockwell in 1978, and the stepping down of his son Willard Rockwell, Jr. in 1979 as the second CEO, Bob Anderson became CEO and led the company through the 1980s when it became the largest U.S. defense contractor and largest NASA contractor. Source: Wiki

edit on 4/30/2011 by SayonaraJupiter because: color tags

edit on 4/30/2011 by SayonaraJupiter because: tag fix

edit on 4/30/2011 by SayonaraJupiter because: stupid tags

Well, you've successfully proven that NASA contracts things from companies with military involvement, and may in fact be part of the "military-industrial complex". Well done.

Say! When are you going to prove NASA itself is a military agency, which was FoosM's original--and largely irrelevant--assertion? Here, I'll make a list;

FoosM
1. NASA has messy paperwork.
2. NASA is military, and should have consistent paperwork.
3. NASA may have deliberately messed up the paperwork to make it harder to understand.

000063
1. NASA is a civilian agency.

SJ
1. NASA is an agent of the military-industrial complex.

000063
1. That's not what FoosM--

SJ
1. NASA is an agent of the military-industrial complex, and here are some sources to prove it.

000063
1. That source specifically describes NASA as civilian.

SJ
1. NASA is an agent of the military-industrial complex.

And here we are.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by 000063

 

That has to be about the worst effort at debunking I have seen..
Big on BS and very short on facts..

Name three flaws, or even one, that are contradicted by publicly available facts, and let's discuss them. In all four of the videos I posted, just to be fair. Let's talk about what you see as the biggest flaw.

reply to post by DJW001

Then what do you think Jarrah is really collecting money for?

Why don't you tell us what you think he will use the money for?

(I'm catching up on this thread so apologies if you have already said what you think Jarrah intends to do with the donations.) But just for me, if you have already, can you tell me again. Ta.

Thanks DJ. We do have in common that we both acknowledge that the photographs of the lunar missions could have been re-staged in an earth enviroment and that is why I like you.

reply to post by 000063

Name three flaws, or even one, that are contradicted by publicly available facts, and let's discuss them.

Three flaws from where?

The video you say is long on BS. Or any of the other three I linked to.

Originally posted by 000063
The video you say is long on BS. Or any of the other three I linked to.

It was, it didn't really address any issues..

The idea was it would have been cheaper and easier to bribe or kill those at the observatory was their main argument..

reply to post by weedwhacker


Again, one doth protest too much IMHO.

The "wunderkind" (aka "Jarrah White") is, really, a poorly-educated delusional narcissistic celebrity wannabe.....full of bluff, fluff and rubbish.....

No-one, apart from the OP called him a 'genius'... so where does 'wunderkind' come from straw man?

Proof that he is 'poorly educated' please. As in his grades and degrees and not your personal opinion weed.

In Your Opinion he is full of 'bluff, fluff and rubbish'.

In mine and others opinion he raises some very intriguing points about anomalies with NASA's stance on the lunar missions and while not being a genius by any means he presents his beliefs in a solid fashion and admits to his mistakes and addresses his critics.

If you watch is latest rebutall he mentions some of the very SICK and VULGAR stuff he has been forced to protest about.

You Weed are not being critical here, you are forcing your bias.

Blessed wishes.

Bring on Moon Rocks.

Originally posted by 000063NASA isn't a military agency. They're civvies, part of the Executive Branch.

I reckon that CIA and DoD are also a part of the Executive Branch. Your claim that NASA are "civvies" is "civilian spin" on the American space program.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter


Doesn't information from NASA have to be approved by the DOD or NSA first?
Sure I read that somewhere...

Who does NASA answer to?

The President of the United States by way of the Office of Science and Technology Policy in the Executive Office of the President.

wiki.answers.com...

That says it all.

Originally posted by manmental
Bring on Moon Rocks.

I agree! Let's take a good look at those 22kg of "moon rocks" which were returned to the Earth by Apollo 11's MILITARY trained pilot/astronauts, escorted from the capsule by MILITARY ships, flown to Ellington AFB on MILITARY jets (via 2 different routes, I might add).... those very same moon rocks which were so poorly catalogued in 1969 that NASA had to convene a second committee... 6 years later.... to catalogue them properly.

HAHA thread is going fast today!

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

 

Doesn't information from NASA have to be approved by the DOD or NSA first?
Sure I read that somewhere...

There was an agreement between NASA & NPIC which included the Apollo photographic materials. In other words the CIA looked at and approved the pictures before they were presented to the public. The release and presentation of Apollo pictures and moon rocks to the general public was heavily orchestrated and strictly controlled. I don't know why NASA/NPIC would go through such an effort to screen pictures of the moon for a "civvie" program unless..... these Apollo pictures were considered a matter of national security?

The magazine pictures from the era includes all the "best shots". They did that for a reason :

Propaganda effect

reply to post by backinblack

Doesn't information from NASA have to be approved by the DOD or NSA first?
Sure I read that somewhere...

In the word's of Yogi Berra, it's deja vu all over again:

]reply to post by SayonaraJupiter


FoosM, did all the Apollo camera negatives go through NPIC? I think NASA and NPIC had an agreement about camera negatives. We have seen only NASA pictures after they have been processed by the CIA.

Shouldn't you have researched that question before you made this statement?

Go back here. I swear, this is more like a game of "Snakes and Ladders" than a proper thread sometimes.

reply to post by DJW001


Not sure how that discredits the involvement of outside intelligence agencies..
It actually proves they were involved.

There comes a point in some conversations where laughter is the only appropriate response left.

Originally posted by Smack
There comes a point in some conversations where laughter is the only appropriate response left.

P6MOnehCOUw

Need more Apollo funny! John Stewart
ccinsider.comedycentral.com...

Stephen Colbert
www.colbertnation.com...

Apollo is the joke.