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What’s More Important: Liberty Or The Entity That Protects It?

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posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 08:39 PM
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Chuck Baldwin
April 29, 2010

Let me ask readers a question. What’s more important: freedom and its undergirding principles, or the entity meant to protect it? A word of caution: be careful how you answer that question, because the way you answer marks your understanding (or lack thereof) of both freedom and the purpose of government.




Jefferson could not be clearer: America’s founders desired a land in which men might live in liberty.

Thomas Jefferson–and the rest of America’s founders–believed that freedom was the principal possession, because liberty is a divine–not human–gift. Listen to Jefferson:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men.” (Declaration of Independence)

Jefferson could not be clearer: America’s founders desired a land in which men might live in liberty. By declaring independence from the government of Great Britain (and instituting new government), Jefferson, et al., did not intend to erect an idol (government) that men would worship. They created a mechanism designed to protect that which they considered to be their most precious possession: liberty. In other words, the government they created by the Constitution of 1787 was not the object; freedom’s protection was the object.

Again, listen to Jefferson: “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men.” In other words, government is not the end; it is the means. Government is not the goal; it is the vehicle used to reach the goal. Nowhere did Jefferson (and the rest of America’s founders) express the sentiment that government, itself, was the objective. Listen to Jefferson once more:

“That whenever ANY FORM OF GOVERNMENT becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.” (Declaration) (Emphasis added.)

Jefferson is clear: people have a right to alter or abolish ANY FORM OF GOVERNMENT that becomes destructive to liberty. To America’s founders, there was no such thing as a sacred cow when it came to government. Government had but one purpose: “to secure these rights.” When ANY FORM of government stops protecting sacred, God-given liberties, it is the right and duty of people to do whatever they deem appropriate to secure their liberties–even to abolishing the government.




“That whenever ANY FORM OF GOVERNMENT becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

Are we there yet?
How long must we wait?

What are your thoughts ATS?




posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 08:49 PM
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When you wake up in Uzbekistan, or China or Venezuela, then you'll know you're at that point.

You're not there yet America, nowhere near close. I live in the United Kingdom, and we have more stipulations, more taxes and more government than you do, and we are not even close yet.

Should you want to change aspects of your government, that is your business and there are methods to do so.

By asking "how long must we wait" though it sounds as though you, OP, want a violent overthrow of the government. Nobody, ever, should want to have to have a revolution, especially a violent one.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 08:52 PM
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Liberty

IMO

I am not for dismantling the USA -

Frankly I fear other peoples views of what constitutes liberty, likely the same could be said for my views.

We are the most prosperous nation and the greatest, to assume that we will rise to anywhere near the same stature again is not a bet I am willing to wager at this time.

I feel as free as I ever have, despite the constant charge of eroding liberty, in the last week I have drank a beer, blasphemed, cursed the government, pissed on a wall,
smoked, watched some boobies, paid my bills, went to work, ate until I felt sick,
ran a stop sign, played rock n roll all night and walked for miles in the middle of the night with no particular destination in mind.

What were you or anyone else denied THIS WEEK, I just want to know?

thanks

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 08:54 PM
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I have seen just in my short lifetime a loss of liberty. Things I did 10+ years ago I could not do today.

For instance:

In highschool I kept firearms in my truck and the school knew it.
I would get pulled over for speeding and let go with only a warning.
Cops did arm themselves with machine guns and heavy bodyarmor.

Today you guys know how it is... You own a gun you are a criminal. When you are pulled over you almost always issued a paper warning or a ticket, And just about every cop looks like he is on the SWAT team.

We need a real change in America a return to our roots.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by ProjectJimmy
 


Revolution:

That's the last thing we want or need, but our government will not hear the people here in America all power to govern comes from the people consent to govern.

We have a right to hit the reset button. The better question would be how would we do so with out the risk of a bloody revolution?

Government is owned by the banks anyway.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by SWCCFAN
I have seen just in my short lifetime a loss of liberty. Things I did 10+ years ago I could not do today.

For instance:

In highschool I kept firearms in my truck and the school knew it.
I would get pulled over for speeding and let go with only a warning.
Cops did arm themselves with machine guns and heavy bodyarmor.

Today you guys know how it is... You own a gun you are a criminal. When you are pulled over you almost always issued a paper warning or a ticket, And just about every cop looks like he is on the SWAT team.

We need a real change in America a return to our roots.


Well at my school there were three shootings one year
I have been pulled over five times in my life and have never gotten a ticket, Plenty of parking tickets however
The cops have better gear, thats because two gunmen held off the entire police force
due to lack of better ammunition and weapons, they looked very inept.

I just don't feel that infringed upon myself -

I can't tell you how to feel

I guess I am glad I appreciate what I have now

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 09:02 PM
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I am going to paste a comment I made in this thread-

Fifth Column Movement : The United Nations, Your Country, and Defending Your Rights...


Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Nice layout SKL.

I just wanted to interject what the Founders of this nation saw as the problems in their time and their purpose of creating the form of government they did.

They knew of all types of intrigue and power. They may not have known all the ways of the corrupt and scheming but they knew of only one way to try and subvert these machinations before they even began.

Libertarianism and individual rights. To limit the power of those governing over those governed. Also to place as little power in the government as possible, while at the same time leaving the power of self determination in the individual.

I refer to the true meanings behind their words and meanings as ORIGINAL INTENT. Anytime I try and argue the merits or components of the Constitution, I try and frame my thoughts and reflections on this one tenet of Original Intent.

They trusted no one with power, no one. Even themselves. It did not take long for them to realize that the Constitution as written did not deter the power hungry and corrupt and it took only a few years for them to realize that they HAD TO create the Bill of Rights to further protect their intentions.

We see it today, our courts including the Supreme Court completely subvert the true meaning of this great Libertarian document. You could say the courts of this past century and a half, were one of the greatest fifth column victories, to ever be devised.

We now have the "priest class" of lawyers and academicians furthering the demise of this country and it's founding documents. I have argued with many a lawyer and others that the Original Intent is the ONLY way to interpret the Constitution. We now have people and lawyers stating that the "elastic clause" emboldens our government to pass any and all legislation to further the government's position of it's interpretation of the document.

They even go so far as to state that the rights of the government, if they have substantial interests, will outweigh the rights of the citizenry. Even if those rights take away the very rights of the citizenry.

Oh this raises my ire. The Original Intent of the Constitution in no way shape or form places the rights of government above the rights of the citizenry. It is such a grievous position and argument that I am amazed the Constitution does not burst into flames when asshats state such drivel.

A video explaining exactly what I am saying-

Rule of Law and indefinite detention.




This is one of those times that the Constitution, WRITTEN ON HEMP by the way, should have burst into flames. Look at it this way, if the Founders would want 20 guilty people to go free so that no one innocent person would go to jail, what would you say was their Original Intent would be.

I would argue that they respected the fact that society at large would have had to deal with those 20 guilty at a later time, so that the one innocent would not be subjected to tyranny.

I am slightly going off on a tangent here so back on track. I think Beck gave me the idea that TRUST is the current problematic component in our country today. When politicians have a worse favorability rating than say terrorists, I would say he is right. Take a gander at the favorability of Congress, the last poll was at what, 7%? I wonder if they did a poll on terrorists? Do you think maybe it would be higher than 7%?

I could list a huge number of politicians that BALD FACE lie, and people give them a pass! I am just going to post this video to prove my point-




Now we have this piece of #, forming the legislation to "supposedly" regulate the financial industry. They are not passing this legislation for actual regulation. It is the same thing day in and day out, they are creating controls to keep those in power, in power. Period. Next up, or is it part of it, Cap and Tax.

If anyone would like to look into "WHO" has the Carbon Credits components all set up and ready to go, it may open your eyes to what the hell is going on. Goldman Sachs and a bunch of politicians and other corporations are all set up to implement the largest TAX SCAM ever to rear its bloody head in the history of mankind.

Let me reiterate the Original Intent of the founders. They did not trust big government. They did not trust power in anyone's hands. They did not want the people to give up their God given right of self determination for the "supposed" security our government now uses, to define it's very existence and power.

Original Intent



I would say one more thing SKL, at what point in time do we say the 5th column is the very government, that rules over us in the name of the tyrants our founders warned us about?

To end my spiel, one more video-



edit to add, S&F and a little editing for gramma

[edit on 4/29/2010 by endisnighe]



OP, S&F



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 09:06 PM
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reply to post by ProjectJimmy
 


Who would want a violent revolution?
Thomas Jefferson most likely.


Having said that a violent revolution would play into 'their' hands more today than back then...



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by Janky Red
What were you or anyone else denied THIS WEEK, I just want to know?



[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]


Well I have a friend that runs a private Club membership based just like the VFW or a Yaht club. He was order to close his doors cause the local County Says he is in violation of The county codes. When asked what Code he violated they would not tell me. Thats on a local level.

On a State level here in MS we have open meetings laws, But they go into executve session at a whim. When asked why they give one of the handfull of legal reasons. When further challenged they admit they can't say why and then the public body is fined $100 and it is taken out of the general fund and put back in.

On a National level I am told I must meet a minimum health insurance plan of face fines. If I cannot pay the fine I will go to jail.

So I would say this week has been a bad week for me.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by SWCCFAN

Originally posted by Janky Red
What were you or anyone else denied THIS WEEK, I just want to know?



[edit on 29-4-2010 by Janky Red]


Well I have a friend that runs a private Club membership based just like the VFW or a Yaht club. He was order to close his doors cause the local County Says he is in violation of The county codes. When asked what Code he violated they would not tell me. Thats on a local level.

On a State level here in MS we have open meetings laws, But they go into executve session at a whim. When asked why they give one of the handfull of legal reasons. When further challenged they admit they can't say why and then the public body is fined $100 and it is taken out of the general fund and put back in.

On a National level I am told I must meet a minimum health insurance plan of face fines. If I cannot pay the fine I will go to jail.

So I would say this week has been a bad week for me.


That sucks...

I would say you should run and make a difference, can't expect others to do what you reckon is right.

On the healthcare, it is not constitutional to force you, I am considering dropping mine myself just to see how they like housing me at 60x's the cost of the initial fine.

I will tell you my bank account was debited twice for a repeat charge, not my mistake,
regardless they fined me for each bounced debit based upon their mistake, which then
put me at a negative balance which created a new charge. My call of complaint was dropped twice and then I was told their is nothing I can do, which took 2 hours-

If you want to know thats what I hate, that does make me feel infringed upon

Unfortunately I do not have tens of thousands of dollars to recoup a couple hundred

I worked more than two days for that money and have no recourse, I have to accept it
and move on.



posted on Apr, 29 2010 @ 09:42 PM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 


Oh, that one really pisses me off Janky. When out in Fresno the company I worked for requires a bank account so they can use Direct Deposit.

We had a whole 4 employees there. Of course they used an accountancy service to do the payroll and required the DD.

I think I lost probably over $1000 in OD and bull# maneuvers on the bank's computer techniques.

I caught them once, charging me for over 12 over drafts. I had gone under by about $50 due to my last debit charge. They held onto all the debits to a point, they use size of debit and not the date or time, the one larger one put me over the limit and then about 11 other small debits, cigarettes, McD's blah blah blah, the next thing I know, I was like $400 in the whole. $30/OD, I went to the manager of my branch and they stated they would not fix it. So I told them to close my account. They stated they could not with a negative balance so I told them to bite my left nut softly!

Went to a credit union opened an account and changed my DD at the office to that one. I had to wait til the next DD cleared Well's.


Oh, and also, Well's has this thing known as DD advance.
When my next DD went into WF it cleared the overdraft and I withdrew all but $2. Used the DD advance for $500 advance!

I keep getting letters from them, they can kiss my hairy white ass!



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