Would Intelligent Aliens Undermine God?

Originally posted by igor_ats




igor: Do you think all the Biblical "truths" - creation, Adam and Eve, will be confirmed by visiting Aliens?
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manta 78: That is already controversial now among humans on our planet, with the creationism vs. evolution debates, and beliefs are strong on both sides. Visiting aliens confirming one side or other will only make one group happy.
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igor: If those biblical truths are proven false, how is that not undermining the bible? I am not asking if some nutters will still believe in God no matter what or conveniently claim everything in the bible is just a metaphor, i'm simply asking if those biblical truths being proven false is not undermining the bible.

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manta78: Because the beliefs have been ingrained in societies for thousands of years; I don't think that "visitors" are going to change people's beliefs, enough to abandon all support of the bible, simply because they (visitors) say it is so, no matter what type of evidence that they may provide. We have seen many times in our world's history that what was believed to be true, as told to us by our "leaders". or scientists, earth is flat, etc. simply was not correct. Although one might argue this is exactly what you are referring to, the majority will rely upon "faith" which again defined in the dictionary is: "belief that is not based on proof".


manta78: Another advantage humans have is the ability to think independently (except maybe for politicians) vs. collectively
as aliens are thought to do. Although some relationships will change, no question, as mentioned in my earlier post, the majority of people will still believe in God, Buddha, Islam, or whatever their beliefs are now.













[edit on 29-4-2010 by manta78]

Originally posted by igor_ats

Originally posted by manta78
"Undermine God? " to answer the OP's question; No, for the majority of believers using the interpretation of the dictionary word:

"to weaken or cause to collapse by removing underlying support, as by digging away or eroding the foundation."

Do you think all the Biblical "truths" - creation, Adam and Eve, will be confirmed by visiting Aliens?

If those biblical truths are proven false, how is that not undermining the bible? I am not asking if some nutters will still believe in God no matter what or conveniently claim everything in the bible is just a metaphor, i'm simply asking if those biblical truths being proven false is not undermining the bible.

What biblical "truths"? The bible is a jewish document, meant for no one else. It represents only the jewish viewpoint. The new testament is not part of it. It is composed of fantasy. It has been shown to contain plagiarism. No one in their right mind, presently, would consider living such as the people of the bible did. Even if you can quote generalities that can be observed today, they don't give the bible any extra power. There are a ton of publications, including encyclopaedias, criticizing the veracity of the bible's contents. The bible undermines itself.

manta78

igor: If those biblical truths are proven false, how is that not undermining the bible? I am not asking if some nutters will still believe in God no matter what or conveniently claim everything in the bible is just a metaphor, i'm simply asking if those biblical truths being proven false is not undermining the bible.

manta78: Because the beliefs have been ingrained in societies for thousands of years. . .

I am not asking if some nutters will still believe in God no matter what. It is an objective question. If Aliens prove how man was created, how the universe was formed, there was no Adam and Eve etc. that is undermining the bible.

That in turn undermines Christianity.

The only way they can get out of it is claim every single thing proven false is "oh that story was just a metaphor for what the Aliens have just proven false", "oh and that story too. . . and that one."

I don't think that "visitors" are going to change people's beliefs, enough to abandon all support of the bible, simply because they (visitors) say it is so, no matter what type of evidence that they may provide.

I am not asking if some nutters will still believe in God no matter what. Mind you, you'll rarely see someone start sweating harder than an evangelical in a dinosaur museum.

We have seen many times in our world's history that what was believed to be true, as told to us by our "leaders". or scientists, earth is flat, etc. simply was not correct.

Correct, alongside with the theory of evolution, intelligent design fiasco etc. science and religion have clashed before. However, big bang theory, theory of evolution etc. are just theories/

They're just the scientific status-quo until a better one comes along. The difference with Aliens is that they'll bring proof. No bargaining chip or plausible denial for the Christians here - that wedge in the door is how they (Christians) get things (or try to) put into law. It's not about what they think, it's about ppl all around the world in general seeing direct proof that the bible is incorrect.

When religious types force their will on others, their source of authority will have less integrity than before.

When was the last time Christians as a whole claimed the world was flat after it was categorically proven false? The world being flat is not in the bible so there's no controversy. However, biblical truths all Christians agree upon such as creation being proved false will be the nail in the coffin for biblical integrity.

Aliens will prove that man is not the center of creation like the bible very clearly suggests. And to forestall the vague OT passages get-out-of-jail card, that still does not prove God clearly put man at the center of creation and that beings far superior-than-humans with interstellar travel was just an afterthought he hinted at it in some vague passages for humans to decipher with a *nudge nudge* wink wink*.

The Shrike

What biblical "truths"? The bible is a jewish document, meant for no one else. It represents only the jewish viewpoint.

In your opinion? I don't remember Christians disowning creation/adam and eve etc. Isn't the whole Intelligent Design fiasco about creation.

Haven't some ppl here self-identified as Christian and have pointed to Old Testament passages as proof of God creating Aliens as well.

The new testament is not part of it. It is composed of fantasy. . . The bible undermines itself.

The bible is the basis for Christianity though. That it is full of errors/contradictions isn't new, the point is Aliens will unlikely confirm everything Christians believe as biblical truths. That would be a tangible nail in the coffin for all to see and wouldn't be just a different opinion or subjective interpretation.

Originally posted by igor_ats
snip
The Shrike

What biblical "truths"? The bible is a jewish document, meant for no one else. It represents only the jewish viewpoint.

In your opinion? I don't remember Christians disowning creation/adam and eve etc. Isn't the whole Intelligent Design fiasco about creation.

Creation is not an accepted reality for those employing common sense, logic, and reason. Those of us employing such know that religions are man-made and that we are all there is in the cosmos and that no human has any knowledge to state with authority that there are any gods except those created by man. Tell me what happened to the Egyptian gods, the Greek gods, the Roman gods, etc. They're gone but in ancient times they were believed in.

Haven't some ppl here self-identified as Christian and have pointed to Old Testament passages as proof of God creating Aliens as well.

There is no evidence whatsover on planet earth that anyone or anything created anything regarding humans and alleged aliens. Only the mentally-conditioned religious believers come up with that pap.

The new testament is not part of it. It is composed of fantasy. . . The bible undermines itself.

The bible is the basis for Christianity though. That it is full of errors/contradictions isn't new, the point is Aliens will unlikely confirm everything Christians believe as biblical truths. That would be a tangible nail in the coffin for all to see and wouldn't be just a different opinion or subjective interpretation.

I doubt that if aliens exist they will confirm anything that is associated with not only christianity but all religions. Again, biblical truths has been challenged and those professing such are on the losing team. Proper education resulting in intelligence rules. Fantasies are for the fantasizers.

I didn't read through every post, but here are my points in response to the OP.

1. Some people are going to believe that the aliens aren't actually aliens are in fact demons. They will not believe anything they say, especially if they say it's all a bunch of bs.

2. What happens if the aliens say it's all true?

This is all pretty sad actually. The thought just it me that everyone here is worried about what they would say and if people would believe it.

However...

We are humans...


Since when does all we think about revolve around what another group of people says? I can't help but imagine our own human history. Most nations who went from a local place to a more continental position always, like us, discussed who was right and who was wrong and who to listen to. But it was the Romans who said No to all that. They declared that their way is true, and ignored all the numerous ideologies around them. They declared that there is something to learn from Greek history, but that overwhelmingly they should go about advancing their own path.

So the question arises. Are we going to be some group of sore losers who just eats up whatever the smartest race of folks out there says, or are we going to ignore them and go our own way. If their way has something to learn, we should absorb it. But we should stay human, and not become someone else's culture and way.

reply to post by Crossfate

What about you christians who believe in original sin and some alien races have not sinned. They will be at your gods side.

reply to post by IMOVERHERE


To be sentient is to be sinful. For freewill exists, and therefore enables choice of evil. No one is perfect, no one does not sin.

What if not only do Aliens believe in God - but they are insistent on it and intend that you WILL believe in THEIR God.

A war about resources with a more advanced species is one thing.

An intersolar war about RELIGION. Nothing says galactic joke like Missionaries with green tentacles.

reply to post by Aeons


The size and quantity of the universe pretty muck eliminates resource wars from the picture. In actuality there would and could only be 3 possible alien invasion situations:

Gould-like creatures from stargate in a feudal state that demand worship. These type do not conquer because they need worship or resources. They conquer out of fear that if they do not own an asset, their fellow feudal state neighbors will.

Uber religious type who evolved to demand worship from others as a quench to their own problems. These creatures could be like the reapers of mass effect, or feel it is their pompous duty to make all others like their own

Genetic imperialist type whose goal is to absorb the genetic material of everything they meet, thinking that they will become super powerful via this way. On occasion these creatures may even change their entire forms if they discover better ones. They may have started out as sentient fungi for all we know, but now look like us or something better.

There's a few grey areas, but really that's about it. There's always the 4th, who knows why type who are uncomprehending as to why they take over.

reply to post by Crossfate


Intelligent aliens wouldn't undermine God they would BE gods. Any being which has mastered Faster than Light travel or wormhole tunneling is far more advanced than us, and, as far as I'm concerned, a species of gods.

Also, if God is real than he too would classify as an alien as he is not from Earth but from "Heaven". So God would technically be an ET.

If there were an all-powerful God than nothing could undermine him or stop him from doing what he wants.

No it wouldn't...

The Astrobiological Delusion Regarding the Future of Religion

Returning to the ETI myth within astrobiology, we note how it includes a prediction about the demise of terrestrial religion, especially Christianity. The conventional wisdom among those who look at terrestrial religion from the outside is this: if we gain conclusive knowledge that we are not alone in the universe, this will shatter all current religious belief systems. Ancient beliefs in the God of Israel and other beliefs in personal gods will be crushed under the weight of new cosmic knowledge. Why does it appear that our religious traditions are so fragile? Because, allegedly, our inherited religious traditions are terrestrial, earthbound, parochial, narrow, and atavistic. This is quite a set of assumptions, but we find them at work within the worldview of many astrobiologists.

www.counterbalance.org...

What about UNintelligent aliens?

I am not convinced that these aliens are all that smart.

We are supposed to be fooled by snazzy advanced technology & even psychic seeming abilities, but i am not really seeing geniuses here.

There is all the mumbo, jumbo gobbledygook. It is all pretty murky as far as i can in any way fathom. I think they may be a bunch of time-surfers & not great designers of some well thought out future designs for us or themselves.

I would not be at all surprised if all the civilized intelligent aliens were back on their home planets & these are all the rogues & sleazebags.

I also have some fear/apprehension that high population density civilizations may mostly tend to have a lot of police state characteristics, but i am sure hoping i am wrong. If i am correct then we MUST stop human population growth or live in a miserable, stifling, uncreative society.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by slank]

some say the whole universe is full of life and live in harmony and peace according to God's will, they know no evil and live forever. we are the only a$$holes who disobeyed God thats why we live in closed ignorance and mind and not allowed to experience and share in Gods whole creation. its like our understanding of the universe is blocked. maybe all other species live in pleasure and peace and we have to live in misery and death and have to earn what every other alien race takes for granted.

I think a lot of humans on this planet will be stunned to find that the belief system in one God predates human belief in Christian doctrines. There are in all probability several galactic civilizations and beings that practice what is called Christianity here on this planet. As it states in the Bible, God has many houses up in heaven, which could translate that he has enough room for a Universe full of children.

[edit on 3-5-2010 by Reptilian_Queen]

reply to post by Gorman91


I doubt that resource wars would be eliminated. Time and transportation over vast space with natural and created boundaries - that's not going to go away.

The silk roads are still a political minefield today. Silk roads will always have political and power coin.

Infinite resources there are. Over an infinite amount of space. And there's your problem. Distance + rarity + trade route = war.

Originally posted by Crossfate


I'd like to hear their take on God. That would be a extremely interesting conversation for sure at least if they do believe in God and in any way, our God also.

Perhaps a thread-title change is on order here. You appear to be very open-minded when it comes to the concept of what God may or may not be. The traditionally accepted Christian concept of what God is, is very narrow and defined. Your thread title is presenting the premise of whether or not all different species of Aliens would undermine a God as defined in Christian terms.

Is it too big a Universe to think they would or would not undermine only one religion?

We will all find out that L Ron Hubbard was right.

Get them Thetans out now, because you'll look like a fool when the aliens come.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
We will all find out that L Ron Hubbard was right.

Get them Thetans out now, because you'll look like a fool when the aliens come.

I want to laugh. I really do. But Scientology is so completely and thoroughly menacing. I've seen the photos of the dead escapees. Chilling.

Originally posted by NightVision

Originally posted by WolfofWar
We will all find out that L Ron Hubbard was right.

Get them Thetans out now, because you'll look like a fool when the aliens come.

I want to laugh. I really do. But Scientology is so completely and thoroughly menacing. I've seen the photos of the dead escapees. Chilling.

All organized religions frighten me. Scientology's tactics are nothing new, and rather tame compared to other religions.