U.S. Vice Admiral Apologizes and Surrenders Himself for Afghan Deaths To Afghan Family

The people here griping about the sheep need to understand that the Pashtun have a code of honor. These concepts are alien to the Western mind, thus you don't understand and you can't understand.

The Pastun have an entire way of life with etiquette and protocol, something very few westerners understand.

I have sat and ate with these people on numerous occaisions. They view the world and human life in a way most in the West cannot understand.

What the Vice Admiral did was humble himself and appeal to the father's honor. It was the most respectful thing he could do. He even asked for mercy from Allah. What happened here is monumental. He didn't try to buy the father off or anything like that.

What the father did was show the world a shining example of honor, something that those of you calling for blood terribly lack.

In this situatation, we have two people who are trying to be the better man. The Afghani wins IMO.

The vice admiral is clinical because he doesn't fight war and his family is home safe.

The victim who had his family murdered, he turns the other cheek.

What does that tell you about our opponents? If it were the other way around... We would be droning or carpet-bombing them, NO?

Two sheep for two pregnant women....that's cheap. Seriously....that's a bad trade.

Yeah I agree 100%

OK! If it was an Afghan guy that was begging the other Afghan father for forgiveness, I could understand the usual "bring two sheep" for forgiveness.

But this was a special photo op/damage control event and the guilty part representing this case is no other than one U.S Vice Admiral of wealth for Christ sake!

NO! this is utterly disgusting! this Afghani father need a lawyer and legal counseling right now Without any further delay!

I wouldn't let this rich Vice Admiral off the hook until he presented at least 20 live sheep - 2 live donkies - 24 live chickens and a couple of roosters + big basket full of fresh fish.

And as a bonus they should install a satellite dish, a big screen TV, fuel-cells/batteries and solar panels so all the children in the village can watch cartoons/funny movies and afghan sport.

An interesting story, but people become suicide bombers for many different reasons...most common:

1) Revenge, as stated in this case
2) Money - often, these guys' families get a LOT of money for such acts
3) Idealism - some really want to get to those 70 virgins...
4) Nothing left to live for - so they die for a cause

This is the most disgusting, smelly piece of propaganda I have witnessed in years.

It's great and all that this Afghan man accepted the apology offering, and I can respect his cultural perspective...

But from OUR cultural perspective . . . what this Vice Admiral did is an insulting, disingenuous, and manipulative act of propaganda. Apologizing isn't just about making the victim "feel better", it's about the offender genuinely exposing the recognition of their misdeed and vowing to NEVER do that misdeed again.

As long as that Vice Admiral is in country, he cannot make that guarantee, so his "apology" is 100% empty and misleading.

Furthermore, an apology isn't something that you advertise or boast about, for if you do, it exposes the disingenuous nature (lie) of the apology and that you have ulterior motives (propaganda).

Does an Admiral not command sailors, not soldiers ?

What is an Admiral doing in Afghanistan ? He should be at sea, there is no sea anywhere near Afghanistan.

Did the Admiral actually buy and pay for the sheep himself, or did he get some lacky to procure them through the system paid for by US taxpayers ?

I just don't buy it .... staged propoganda ..... the Afghani guy shudda kicked his head in whilst he got the chance and become a national hero.

Sorry but some of you people are ridiculous. No matter what happens, you hate the military and what they do. They can go ask for forgiveness, bring gifts and apologize, but you call it PR.

I'm sorry to say this, but a lot of people on here are extremely close-minded. You SAY you try to see the big picture or the grand scheme of things, but you don't.

You take every opportunity you can to bash and put down the military as a whole. You don't agree with what they're doing? FINE. Go protest, write letters, take action. But to sit here and criticize from afar is cowardly at very best. I'm so sick and *snip* tired your rhetoric regarding the military, because it's simply blind hate.

I personally think this is great. By doing what he did, he potentially saved hundreds of lives by stopping a man hell-bent on suicide bombing somewhere. Oh it's not good enough? Says who? Us spoiled Americans? 2 sheep to that man probably means more than anything any of us own.

I'm sorry to rant so tirelessly, but for a website whose motto is to "deny ignorance" I'd say many members do an outstanding job of promoting it...



EDIT: spelling

[edit on 9-4-2010 by Rockstar02]

please don't circumvent the censors.
Thanks

[edit on 9-4-2010 by gallopinghordes]

reply to post by Chevalerous


See because to you that's all it's about. Monetary and physical items as reparations. You know, not every society in the world wants gifts or presents sent to them as an apology. The fact that the vice admiral asked for his forgiveness and the forgiveness of a God that isn't even his own is far more respectable than your fresh fruit and fish.

Guys, the mass media has brainwash the masses making them think that everything outside us is violent people terrorist that the only thin they are doing is planning terrorists attacks...

Open your eyes guys!

reply to post by bigyin


I believe the admiral is part of jsoc (joint special operations command). jsoc directs a multitude of ground and air assets in afghanistan (special operations soldiers/sailors/marines). He definitely has a direct impact on ground forces, and if special operations forces were involved in the slaughtering of his family, then he is taking responsibility for the actions of those under his command.

As for the rest of your post...

It's sad that even if the VA did this out of his heart and morality, its just a giant PR opportunity for the military. The best thing you can give this man is peace, quiet and hope he doesn't grab an AKS, RPG or some C4 and come back after you. As a human, I wouldn't blame him if he did (would probably do it myself).

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I agree. Very touching, and we could all learn some thing from this. To be able to FORGIVE is one of the most noble qualities man can possess. Unfortunately, I still have that voice in the back of my head that says this was done mainly for good pr on the part of our armed forces.

Originally posted by Rockstar02
Sorry but some of you people are ridiculous. No matter what happens, you hate the military and what they do. They can go ask for forgiveness, bring gifts and apologize, but you call it PR.

Dude don't be naive
Although I really didn't want to reply to your post because it's not what I wanted to focus on the thread, I just felt I had to.

Don't be naive, the killings were not done recently, only the report of it occuring leaked recently.

Originally posted by Rockstar02
You take every opportunity you can to bash and put down the military as a whole. You don't agree with what they're doing? FINE. Go protest, write letters, take action. But to sit here and criticize from afar is cowardly at very best. I'm so sick and *snip* tired your rhetoric regarding the military, because it's simply blind hate.

Almost everyone here applauded the military for helping Haiti during the earthquake, it's called being impartial but knowledgable.

Criticizing from afar is far betting than sending unmanned droned from afar or killing innocent people for no reason.

Originally posted by Rockstar02
I personally think this is great. By doing what he did, he potentially saved hundreds of lives by stopping a man hell-bent on suicide bombing somewhere.

Wait....
did you just try to demonize the forgiving victim here?
Are you serioussss????????????

Is that all you can think about? Him becoming a potential suicide-bomber?
Is that all you got out of this?

For someone who accuses others of blind hate you overwhelm everyone with blind love. Blind patriotism will be the downfall of western civilization!

It's honestly time to wake up, less than 5% of americans would agree with what you just said, your opinons do not represent the people.

I still can't believe what you just said

[edit on 9-4-2010 by gallopinghordes]

WOW! Thank you ModernAcademia! This is a great story. I hope this commander gets A Congressional Medal of Honor.

We are over there offering millions of dollars of rewards for intel, and we are killing people daily, and we are fighting a growing insurgency and competing for the will of the people through politics and weapons and money,

and this guy with two sheep, and an honorable account of his regret and humble request for forgiveness,

this guy changes the whole scene in that village! Who knows how much violence he abated with this straightforward approach. He knew the local custom, he admitted the mistake, and he took responsibility upon himself!

Let's make this guy the next president!

reply to post by Rockstar02


Dude you are probably right, and I am probably wong to be so agressive and hostile about this ..... but thats how I feel.

You want us to what .... admire the military who slaughter innocent people sitting peacefully in their own homes ... and then turn up later with some paltry gift and a bunch of press guys to make like you give a #.

Suppose somebody wiped your family out ... what would they have to do to make it all ok for you ?

reply to post by ModernAcademia


SEE?

The military, as in all aspects of life, has some good people and some bad people. Unfortunately, when the bad, irresponsible ones run around with heavy ordnance, its a very bad thing for innocent people.

Not all soldiers are heartless, not all politicians are corrupt, and not all suicide bombers are "grieving." Sometimes people do things unprovoked, and it makes no sense.

No, sheep wont make up for any significant loss, but its the principal of the gesture. If someone does harm to me or my family, they better apologize, unless they have a death wish. Bearing gifts isnt a bad idea either. Revenge however is always a bad idea. just like the saying goes,

"Before you go seeking revenge, first dig two graves."

And ModAcad, I know you probably wont believe me when I say this, but not every person in Iraq and Afghan agree with your feelings on the war. My friend Pajmon is from Tikrit. He fled Iraq many years ago because his father was MURDERED by one of Saddam's henchmen. His mother was raped in front of him after seeing her husbands throat slashed. She hung herself shortly after. He is a stronger man than I for dealing with those memories. He always tells me that the US is doing a great thing for the Iraqi people by finally restoring order and law, driving out the extremist militant groups that have plagued the area for so long. He was from Saddams hometown, yet whenever he sees a military man in uniform, he walks up to him and shakes his hand, thanking him.

My friend Araksh is from Afghan. He also is glad that US forces are there. He said most people in Afghan feel the same, but most are afraid to openly support the US, or to assist the US, because the Taliban will hear about it and come slaughter their families at night.

He tells me that Afghan people are MUCH BETTER off now than they were before, and that he only wishes we would have moved in to Afghan sooner. For many years the Taliban forbid music, laughter, television, outside news sources, especially women from wearing anything that made them feel attractive.

Now they can finally do all these things without fear. Women wear fashionable clothing now. Music is heard in most homes that can afford devices. THEY EVEN HAVE AN AFGHAN VERSION OF AMERICAN IDOL. I heard a WOMAN almost won.

None of these things would have been possible without death and sacrifice from both sides.

You may think that this is a senseless war, with dubious motives and methods. Im sure there are people in those countries that feel the same. But, its hard to understand where people are coming from until you not only visit those counties, but live there, under their conditions, and attempt to raise a family, live a good life.
Yes, we have taken lives. Unfortunately, sometimes innocent ones.

But as a whole, we have given them their lives back.

Some of them will tell you they dont want us to leave, fearing that the Taliban will creep back in with their draconian ways.

Im not sure where you're from OP, but please consider these things. I respectfully disagree with many of your posts, but I appreciate you sharing these topics with us.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I'm in no way saying that this applies to everyone. I understand many people support troops, their actions and the lengths they go to. Yes, what we did in Haiti was great, but even through that, there were criticisms regarding their ulterior motives. Still, when they do good, we still find a way of turning it into bad...


I was not trying to demonize anyone. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I was just bringing up another point or view to the story. I apologize if my thought pattern does not match everyone else's regarding this topic.

This is not blind love. Why do you think just because someone did a good action and they are given praise that it's simply blind love? I read the article, I read responses and I choose to praise him for doing what he did, sue me.

Do you honestly think that I care that less than 5% of Americans would agree with what I said? I'm not a Senator or Governor and my intent is not to represent the people as a whole. If my opinion was THAT valued then I feel as if I would have a little more of a following. It is not my intent to represent America's feelings on this, and I was under the impression that this is not a place to echo the sentiments of the American people as a whole.

EDIT: I suck at "quoting"



[edit on 9-4-2010 by Rockstar02]

Originally posted by dfens
Do Vice Admirals serve in the Army or Marines? Afghanistan is quite a ways from the ocean in the regions that matter.

That said, it is a kind gesture. Not sure if it could mean much though. Too many die for protecting their own homeland, and they are labeled terrorists for trying to kill the ones who will kill them.

Afghanistan used to be a sovereign nation. A new party arrives and decides to stop bending over for the west, (via eliminating opium), and they are immediately tagged as a terrorist org. We can't have that, so former EXXON exec Hamid Karzai is installed. Can anyone see the conflict of interest?

Not to mention the "alleged" Caspian Sea pipeline.

What would have been more faithful and demonstrative, would be for the actual officer who ordered the strike to fess up and apologize. Why was a completely different branch of our military forced to beg down?

It seems as fake as our president or secdef saying we are sorry.

My opinion is damage control. If we were really sorry, then we would pull out and leave them alone. Too many private vested interests who insist on pulling this off. The russians couldn't do it.

We helped fund the resistance when USSR tried to do it. Who's to say they aren't paying us back by funding our opposition? The whole- If I can't have it, noone will maxim...

Everyone seems to miss the fact that 9/11 was all Saudis with zero affiliation to Taliban or Al-q-something. According to the official word. They can't even settle on a spelling for one guys name, much less the org he commands.

They could have pinned it on cobra commander and most would eat it up like pudding, given as much exposure its gotten thus far. Never questioning.

Iraq and Afghanistan are unjust and cruel wars. Its legal to bomb people if you have orders. They are not supposed to fight back! But, in America, its illegal to defend yourself against the police. Whether it be local, state, or federal. That includes military. Its the same deal.

It seems like our country is not that important. It seems like its more important to keep killers abroad, (we learned them that,LOL!), than it is to strengthen our own side.

Just my own little rant.

Admiral=Navy

Does anyone else think it could be possible to use this type of strategy to end "the war on terror"? I am unaware of all the customs in the different Middle Eastern regions, but maybe this type of action could be used to allow M.E's to return to the lives they prefer to live and allow us to bring home the majority of troops as I'm sure someone would try to step into the power vacuum and take advatage. I know, it sounds idealistic and oversimplified, but in theory it may be a better alternative to what we are doing now. I understand it would never happen and why, however I am still allowed to dream

reply to post by bigyin


Man, I definitely don't blame you for your feelings whatsoever. Your thoughts are yours and that's what makes this place so great; the ability to argue and share our feelings, rebut and understand both sides to this.

I'm not asking you to admire the military in every aspect that they engage in, far from it. But for all the terrible things that we do, it seems even when we do something right, there is still blacklash and hate. At least he did SOMETHING rather than chalk it up to a mistake or a bad call. This is the type of leaders we need in the military. Ones who can admit to mistakes and do what they can to fix them, regardless of what WE think is good enough to make up for it.

As for your question, I don't know the answer to that. I can't really understand what that feels like so I cannot even predict my actions or thoughts on the situation and thank God I don't have to.

Thanks for bringing that up though, it did make me think a little bit further about the situation as a whole.

Originally posted by BrianInRI
Does anyone else think it could be possible to use this type of strategy to end "the war on terror"? I am unaware of all the customs in the different Middle Eastern regions, but maybe this type of action could be used to allow M.E's to return to the lives they prefer to live and allow us to bring home the majority of troops as I'm sure someone would try to step into the power vacuum and take advatage. I know, it sounds idealistic and oversimplified, but in theory it may be a better alternative to what we are doing now. I understand it would never happen and why, however I am still allowed to dream

Many people disagree with they way a lot of things are done, even in our own countries ...... but that does not mean we can load up an apache helicopter and go and rake the wrong doers till they are no more.

No .... there are other ways of changing attitudes and ultimately regimes and cultures. There are plenty of other places with 'alien' cultures which have since become westernised without us resorting to bombing them.

The thing with Iraq and Afghanistan is that we should never have gone in there with guns and bombs in the first place. Iraq we went in on the lie of WMD's.

Afghanistan I don't know why we are still there. We went to find OBL.








[edit on 9-4-2010 by bigyin]