U.S. Vice Admiral Apologizes and Surrenders Himself for Afghan Deaths To Afghan Family

Piddles pointed out the why and I'm going to say this was act of forgiveness might also been because Obama understands the cultural better then most of us.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
This man, this simple Afghan has shown us all how to be. It wasn't a replacement for his beloved family. It was an offering of peace and forgiveness.

Originally posted by LoneGunManSomething most Americans will never understand.

I disagree. I've spread this story around quite a bit today, and most people were struck by the courage and humanity of this man to forgive. As well as the gesture from the military.

Originally posted by LoneGunManHave any of us truly pondered this?

Yup. I do wonder if you'll believe that though.

Originally posted by LoneGunManWe do not have honor, humility or even much empathy anymore.

Well I suppose you can go through your life thinking that if you want, but my experience of my country men and women is different. The empathy that you see is often directly proportional to that which give; and these next few quotes of yours makes me wonder if you are so blinded by frustration that you may not even have the capacity to see the honor, humility or empathy in those around you.

Originally posted by LoneGunManWe have become a country that needs to be flushed.

It is no longer my Government that I dislike.

I am getting so I really dislike mainstream Americans, my people that I have always loved and protected, laid my life on the line for. A nation that the majority has been left empty because of the corporate influence.

A Godless greedy nation that even refuses to help each other unless they feel they will get something out of it.

A nation of uncivilized dog eat dog animals.

Hmmmm. What is your capacity to forgive I wonder?

Originally posted by LoneGunManThis simple man has more humanity in him then any one hundred Americans combined.

How do you know?

Originally posted by LoneGunManWe have become what we are supposed to be against.

Forget God bless America, those day are over. Now it needs to be God forgive America.

May God help us to see the light again.

Maybe in some ways, but I don't see this godless nation of barbarians that you describe. Most people are decent, and just as caught in The Machine as any one else. It's sad that it seems you're giving up.

The capacity of this man to forgive left me in tears. I was astonished and grateful. The lesson here is profound, on both sides of that interaction.

I wonder if you aren't missing your own lesson here.

Originally posted by ararisq

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Can you imagine foreign troops killing pregnant american women? Would an apology be accepted here?

We have no use for sheep. I imagine it would have to be something more substantial and useful like two iPads or 2 copies of BattleField: Bad Company or maybe 2 backstage passes to American Idol.

Or maybe two hookers and two kilos of blow.

Originally posted by Rockstar02
reply to post by Chevalerous

 

See because to you that's all it's about. Monetary and physical items as reparations. You know, not every society in the world wants gifts or presents sent to them as an apology. The fact that the vice admiral asked for his forgiveness and the forgiveness of a God that isn't even his own is far more respectable than your fresh fruit and fish.

"fresh fruit" ?? - there's no honour in giving a Pashtun fresh fruit!

BTW! my earlier post was 'kinda' sarcastically written - sorry if you didn't noticed that?

I'm sorry but you must be naive to be impressed by this PR propaganda and to think that Haji Sharabuddin would be satisfied "only" with an apology and a sheep as compensation for having his family killed - including the two pregnant women of the familiy?

Apparently the apology and the begging for forgiveness cost them £19,600 cash up-front in monetary compensation, so far! + the usual sheep ritual offering.

This is a very sad and tragic story indeed.

Nato initially said the soldiers found the women's bodies “tied up, gagged and killed”, but retracted the claim after it was proved to be false.

Apparently they first tried to cover up the atrocity by digging out the bullets out of the pregnant womens bodies with their knives and then cleaned the wounds with alcohol to remove any traceable bullet or burn mark of the wounds. And later said that they had found the women's bodies “tied up, gagged and killed - probably a case of 'honour killing' was the official lie and cover story to the media.

But then the journalist Starkey investigated the story and interviewed witnesses and published an article in the timesonline and suddenly a different story appear.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And wikileaks says they have the whole story to be released soon as well.

Admiral McRaven, who heads the US Joint Special Operations Command, said his troops had been acting on faulty intelligence when they stormed the house and the deaths were a “terrible mistake”.

He said: “I am the commander of the soldiers who accidentally killed your loved ones. I came here to send my condolences. I also came to ask your forgiveness for these terrible tragedies.”

Under the Pashtun code of honour a ritual sacrifice is offered at an adversary's door as a way of asking forgiveness.

However, Haji Sharabuddin spared the animal and invited Admiral McRaven into his home. Afghan generals accompanying the US commander gave the family £19,600 in cash.

Haji Sharabuddin said he welcomed the visit but was not concerned about the money and wanted those responsible for the killings to be punished.

Haji Sharabuddin want those responsible for the killings to be punished - he has so far received £19,600 in cash and a sheep for the loss of his family.

Originally posted by Rockstar02

Oh it's not good enough? Says who? Us spoiled Americans? 2 sheep to that man probably means more than anything any of us own

Yeah! you tell me, is two sheep really enough as an 'PR' apology for this terrible tragedy of losing these 5 innocent family members?

Do two sheep really means more to this man than his loved family members?

You said:
"2 sheep to that man probably means more than anything any of us own"

Do you really think so? do they mean "more" then your own children perhaps? or do you own something more valuable that can be compared to these 2 sheep or the loss of pregnant family members?

“There’s no value on human life,” Bibi Sabsparie said. “They killed our family, then they came and brought us money. Money won’t bring our family back.”

www.timesonline.co.uk...

[edit on 9-4-2010 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by Chevalerous


The bottom line is this:

There is nothing in the world -- no amount of money, animals, iPads, fruit, etc. -- to compensate for the loss of family members. PERIOD.

It is not about WHAT the vice admiral gave the man, as much as it is about apologizing and forgiving.

Closure is priceless. Perhaps this provided some for this poor man who was desperate to find out who killed his family -- now he knows.

Would $50K be enough?
How about a herd of sheep?
Maybe he should have been offered residency in the US?

I mean -- there is no right answer. No amount of money brings his family back.

However, the vice admiral took into consideration the customs of this man and his family and honored them. And above all -- admitted he was wrong.

This is a step in the right direction. Ignoring the surviving family members and never acknowledging you killed their loved ones in the first place is almost a worse tragedy than the actual killing. Almost.

This was not a "replacement" for his family. It was a gift and an apology which followed Afghan tradition.

reply to post by bigyin


I agree with you whole heartedly. I don't think our military should be there at all. Look at how our country has been indoctrinated without the use of military force(for a long time anyways). What I'm saying is if Middle Easterners will forgive us if we act appropriately after such a miscarraige of justice then there may be hope of a meeting of the minds and ultimately a stand down militarily. It won't happen and I know that because we aren't there to make friends. You don't kill millions of people and change the very fabric of a society because of the reasons they gave(WMD, etc). I was hypothesizing a solution, as simple as it may be, to mend fences.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by BrianInRI]

reply to post by piddles


No joke. After this thread, I have gained some perspective on ATS users in general. A cover-up is underway and five pages of nonsense moral gobbledygook cloud the waters...

In five pages of comments the name McRaven doesn't ring a bell for anyone?

Seymour Hersh: U.S. Forces Carried Out Assassinations in 'a Lot of' Countries Incl. Latin America

Seymour Hersh: Congress has no oversight of it. It's an executive assassination wing, essentially. And it's been going on and on and on. And just today in the Times there was a story saying that its leader, a three-star admiral named McRaven, ordered a stop to certain activities because there were so many collateral deaths. It's been going in -- under President Bush's authority, they've been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or to the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving.

TA-ANALYSIS: 'Osama's Capture Soon to be Announced'

The sources would not identify the "target," but refused to deny that it was bin Laden. We were advised that other al Qaeda captures have been and would continue to take place, many from new information obtained from recently captured al Qaeda sources. Subsequently, a total of 5 independent sources were acquired who corroborated the information that Osama bin Laden was captured by US SOF on or about 20 January 2004 inside of the territory of the Islamic Republic of Iran. The US SOF forces operating in that Aera of Operations (AO) is known as Task Force 121, or TF-121. On December 13, 2003 this same US Special Operations Forces unit captured Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

That is when the silence on Osama began (referring to President Bush on NBC's 'Meet the Press') and continues to this day for the most part. However, that's not the end of the story for NEIN because on the 8th of March from our original source that had been telling us all along to stick to our guns on the OBL story we were also advised by this source that an announcement of Osama bin Laden's capture or suspected death will be made within the next 15-20 days. "It could be sooner or it could be later, but not much later," the source told Northeast Intelligence Network. "Watch for the capture or discovery to be made by Task Force 121, headed by Admiral Bill McRaven."

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I agree with what schrodingers dog said here.

After reading the article in the end it's mentioned

The apparent lack of care with which the troops conducted the raid on Feb. 12 pushed a family who supported the government away. It took a visit by a three-star for the family to move on and to forgive, which they apparently have.

And that may help quell the demand for an investigation, limiting the fallout of the incident.

(pay emphasis to the bold part)

I also read today the the soldiers dug into the body with knives to remove the bullets and then poured alcohol over it to cover it up mentioned here:

"US special forces soldiers dug bullets out of their victims’ bodies in the bloody aftermath of a botched night raid, then washed the wounds with alcohol before lying to their superiors about what happened."

Source:Salon and Huffingpost.

So I am more inclined to damage control option though the Admiral's apology is commendable of sorts but the guilty should be prosecuted.

Edit to add: The Afghan father is the hero here no doubt about it all.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by December_Rain]

reply to post by ModernAcademia


You're very right, this act showed that we can be peaceful human beings. I wonder why this Admiral decided to do this? What made him think of this, or who talked him into it? Was this just a ploy to make us look better, and get some good media, since the media was present while it happened?

I do love how it means the guy may not attack back now, we should just invest in a large amount of farm animals and start handing them over... lol. No but seriously, we shouldn't have to be doing this AT ALL! It's very sad indeed that anyone is getting killed, let alone unborn babies! If I was the man who lost my daughter, sons, unborn grandchild etc. I don't think 2 of any animal would make up for that... but I guess their customs are different, and I'm happy to hear that he accepted the apology and that the family is accepting this (even though they shouldn't have too be in the first place).

If only more people in the US Military, or in any military in the world, had a loving/caring heart and gave a crap about who they killed, these wars would be much different or nonexistent. Why can't we just have some peace???

I wonder if this was his own idea? And it still doesn't take away that our attack killed a large number of innocent people.. but still.. a nice gesture. I just hope he meant it personally, and was not doing this for publicity, or taking advantage of the locals good nature (those who think they are desert barbarians, I doubt many Westerners would be so forgiving without a multi million dollar lawsuit)

Yes, it is only sheep. Not much trade for loved ones.

But this isn't about us. it is about them. If sheep are what smooths it over, and is culturally sensitive, then it is not for us to judge.

Yes, this may just be cheap PR. But, at the end of the day, isn't that what any concession is? If my wife doesn't like me farting at the dinner table, and i abstain, does it devalue the act? I am going through the motion just to keep her happy....but isn't that the whole point?

No, this was a significant act. An American 3 star went in and showed respect in the only way that the culture allows. It is significant because it strips away the US ego.

I love my country, but we could use a dose of humility. For a Christian nation, we do a poor job at remaining humble. I hope all our soldiers take this commanders example.

reply to post by Rockpuck




That is the whole point. In this persons culture, a multi million dollar settlement = 2 sheep. This is what it took to "buy them off", as deemed by the cultural values.

Whether it was from the heart of the commander or not matters little. The act of humility is what is important.

Man, whats wrong with some of you people! The father accepted his apology and that is that. The 2 sheep represented begging for forgiveness in their culture, not in a materialistic sense.

When will the knit picking end!

Originally posted by thomas_

Originally posted by Phlynx
By apologizing he stopped a potential suicide bomber, saving countless more lives. This proves that America in the Middle East is one of the primary reason for suicide bombers. This proves that violence only sheds more violence. Just an apology saved a man from committing suicide and killing many others.

Wouldn't be simply easier to simply don't shoot children, pregnant womans or innocent people in general? Or even better, don't shoot at all and go home?

That would have save two womans, two unborn babies, one father's mental health, prevented one possible suicidal bomber of being born, countless others that were witnesses of having reasons to become one and consequently countless lives.

There is no heroism in his act. The true heroes of this war are the ones that refused to be part of it.

It is better to apologize than do nothing. The shootings should have never happened, but at least he had the guts to confront the family and apologize.

I would rather him apologize and have a suicide bomber stopped, than not apologize and have even more lives lost.

You can't change what happened in the past, put you can change the future.

Originally posted by lpowell0627
reply to post by Chevalerous

 

The bottom line is this:

There is nothing in the world -- no amount of money, animals, iPads, fruit, etc. -- to compensate for the loss of family members. PERIOD.

It is not about WHAT the vice admiral gave the man, as much as it is about apologizing and forgiving.

Closure is priceless. Perhaps this provided some for this poor man who was desperate to find out who killed his family -- now he knows.

Would $50K be enough?
How about a herd of sheep?
Maybe he should have been offered residency in the US?

I mean -- there is no right answer. No amount of money brings his family back.

However, the vice admiral took into consideration the customs of this man and his family and honored them. And above all -- admitted he was wrong.

This is a step in the right direction. Ignoring the surviving family members and never acknowledging you killed their loved ones in the first place is almost a worse tragedy than the actual killing. Almost.

This was not a "replacement" for his family. It was a gift and an apology which followed Afghan tradition.

Yes this is a step in the right direction, I agree! but do you honestly believe this sudden action of compassion was anything else than desperate and rushed damage control?

Do you really believe that this poor man would have received any apology or/and money at all IF NOT the reporter at Times online in london had brought this crime out into the light and public eye?

Do you really think this would have happened IF NOT Wikileaks had claimed that they had the documents to prove that the coverup and official story was/is false?

I'm sorry man! I sadly don't think so!

[edit on 9-4-2010 by Chevalerous]

So here we have an admirable admiral.
Involved in command, probably paid "some" dues on his way up.
Currently away from the day to day, and surely way to the rear.
Presenting an emotional moment, with emotional offerings and a calculated speech, in full view of the cameras and range of the microphones.

He's got game, and he's got balls, in "his" circle on "his" level and no doubt responded to the request for "someone" to show up and get this done,
BUT, I cant help wondering how much more powerful and possibly affective and respected McRaven could have been, had he turned on heel and just spoke unscripted and harsh truth on a global involvement level?
This was DC PR for the majority and a reach around for Karzai letting him know not to wiggle too much.
Ca$h
Cynical yep, but this play is boring and predictable.

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by Skydancer
Obama understands the cultural better then most of us.

I find this statement more interesting than the topic or the rest of the discussion.

To understand these people would require living immersed among them, in the same religious culture, suffering the same hardships.

Obama lives a life of privilege. Attended a school denied to many more academically qualified than he because of his political activities and his skin color, paid for by others while supporting him on a fast track to the political elite.

I can not make the connection in my head, no matter how hard I try. I'm wondering what you meant?

Obama escalated the war in Afghanistan and increased the raids into Pakistan ignoring its sovereignty. The use of drones he increased significantly. He fully support the activities and knows full well in any war there will be many, many collateral casualties.

Obama is the Commander and Cheif and the end of the line for responsibility is Obama. Had this been genuine, it would have been Obama there with the sheep. If he in fact ordered this action, it means he passed his responsibility off on another person while hiding behind the curtain of his office. He sent a person who was doing as ordered making the whole thing a farce.

I also find it odd how some live in a fantasy world where war against an enemy too cowardly to even wear a uniform, that regularly hides behind women, children and civilians can be fought without things like this occurring. Then on top of that not assign any blame to these cowards who hide behind women and children for their actions? Who pretend these crazed religious fanatics are innocent little babes.

Do you suppose those in Al Qaeda ever apologize for the harm they bring to the people amongst whom they hide?

I have a sign that has hung in every place I've lived for over 35 years. It says "Logic Is Dead". It has never proven to be wrong.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Most will learn nothing from this, I wish they could report this story the same manner you have, in world wide media, but that is a dream, they don't want people to wake up and smell their own %%%%%%% %%%%%% %%%%%% %%% %% %%%%% %%%%%% %% %%%%%%%%%%%% %%%%%%%%% %%%%%%%%%

Beautiful story...
Thank you very much..

wooooo!!! glad to see this and yes this is the first break of light in the war on terror!!!

i am sad that this happened and i am an american and this is what we need more of.
light in this world, and i agree sheep are a good gift.
ramen!