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Why is Lucifer the bad one?

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posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 08:48 PM
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Throughout my years I have dabbled in all religions but at the end of the day I find myself finding the most interest in Christianity and, more importantly, The Bible. Some many years ago I found myself studying the fallen angel Lucifer, who became known as Satan.

Lucifer, from what I have read in the Holy texts was created as a guardian of the Earth with power that was close to even God's. God created Lucifer as the perfect specimen, yet it is said that Lucifer grew proud and corrupted to the ways of God. And thus, Lucifer was the first ever being to have "sinned" God claiming it to be a product of Lucifer's own creation.

However, God created Lucifer himself. God was the one that gave Lucifer free will, and being all knowing and all seeing, God would have known that Lucifer would sin, that Lucifer's free will would lead to the corruption of man (Adam) and would bring sin into the world. Therefore, God, knowing this, willingly allowed it to happen and allowed us to suffer for it for all eternity.

Lucifer, for his actions, was cast from heaven down to Earth where fire consumed him and he became the Satan we know. He was punished for executing the free will with the all seeing, all knowing God had given him. For such things, man is punished for executing his free will. To God, knowing that free will has the power to corrupt all things, he still knowing allowed mankind to have it and instead chose to gain pleasure in punishing them for using the main attribute that he had taken such pride in giving them.

So it is thanks to this story that I have to ask, why makes Lucifer the "BAD" one and not God? Lucifer never actually did anything wrong or outside the scope of the limitations that God had given him. If God wanted him to never question his authority - then he never should have given him the power to do so in the first place. Instead, he made an example out of Lucifer - who seemed to want nothing more than to experience the power of God.

Is that so wrong? Is it so wrong to want to live up to your true potential? To practice the qualities of all the attributes you were given? Was Lucifer really deserving of the punishment he was given?



You read so much in the Old Testament about the destructive powers of God but never do you here about chaos caused by Lucifer / Satan himself. Instead God blames all the evil on sin which he claims Lucifer initiated in man, and thus all the blame is given to Satan for man using his free will.



What do I see? I see a God claiming to be perfect, yet unable to live up to the mistake that he made. I see a God that would instead blame Lucifer for the tarnish to his perfection rather than taking the responsibility himself.




I life my life with the belief that FREEDOM and FREE WILL are the most important things, however, in order to be Christian I am automatically destined to be punished for using my free will. I, and anyone who would choose to use the free will that God gave us to question the universe and find answers - every one of us are no better than Lucifer was, and thus if we subscribe the beliefs of Christianity - for our curiosity and our seeking of wisdom - we too will be cast from heaven and burn for eternity.




Lucifer never did anything wrong. God, having feared taking responsibility for his flaw instead disposed of it and made an example, a weak attempt at preventing Lucifer's influence from spreading. However, in that act he created a monster and instead amplified his mistake 10 fold - creating the Prince of Evil, the Morning Star - the devil himself.

Lucifer was not perfect, but THESE are not the actions of a perfect God either. So who was the bad one? Lucifer? God? Or both?




posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 09:07 PM
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reply to post by gwydionblack
 


For basic story writting purposes, in any story you need a good guy and a bad guy. Does not matter which one is good or bad but you need oposites to keep a readers attention and for their to be a point. There always has to be something a bad guy or an obstacle for there to be some sort of action and purpose to the story.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 09:12 PM
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reply to post by gwydionblack
 

I would second the Gnostic and Jungian argument that Lucifer is not evil.
In the book of Job Lucifer sits with God and they basically gamble about Job's fate. They are friends. Similar to the Prometheus myth in Greek legend, Lucifer brought us knowledge and showed us the human shallowness of our vain God-creation in the Bible. Like Prometheus brought mankind fire, so Lucifer brings us liberation from spriritual tyranny. He is a noble hero who continues to suffer for us in that tradition.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by gwydionblack
 


be careful, to even speak like you are is considered Blasphemous. (in the church that is) But here it's normal. I have taken bits of truths from the bible and from life, but I always remember that the bible was written by man. God had nothing to say about it. There are some serious contradictions in there. My god would never ask one of his children to kill their son for his pleasure. He is love.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 09:20 PM
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You forgot to include reference to Satan being known also as "the Adversary" and "the Destroyer". He wanted to exalt himself to be "like the most High",and since he couldn't do that(not being greator than the Creator),he has sought to distort and destroy the good things God gave us,and to "lead the whole world astray".

God wants us to acknowledge Him,and worship Him,for there is none like Him! He didn't want robots,and having free will is a good thing,but it can work against us also,committing sins that prevent us from having an abundant life.

The reason for Christ's dying on the cross is to offer redemption for a "fallen" world,so that when we are "in Christ",God no longer looks and sees us,He sees His Son,who is blameless.

People may take offense at the whole arrangement,but that is the way God says it is,and I'm not going to argue with it!

Forgot to add:"Father of all Lies"(Satan)

Dedication page from the handbook,"Rules for Radicals",(A favorite among certain politicians,as you may have heard by now):

“Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins — or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer"

[edit on 7-4-2010 by On the Edge]



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 09:24 PM
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I've been posting about this subject for a while.

Lucifer is a deep mystery and quite worthy of deep meditation.

On the Tree of Life, I tend to place him in Tiphareth.

Take that and run with it. I wont expound any further. Some peoples heads may explode.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 09:30 PM
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Well if your speaking of Lucifer , thats a biblical reference. According to the bible Lucifer does not exist anymore . His name has been changed to satan and hes pissed . At least thats the general interpretation.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 09:40 PM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 

Ahh, but are Lucifer and Satan the same? Only in a simplified theology.
Well for me, as a bit of a fan of LaVey's "The satanic Bible" Lucifer is not an issue or an energy. He is a deity of other traditions. Satan is really ourselves, so by His worship we worship ourselves. If I want to see Satan I look in the mirror. He reminds us that all our sins are merely our own wilful human pleasures, and we must take responsibility.

The thing is, the god in the Bible has no direct evil nemesis.
He is alone responsible for all the evil in the OT and the world.
The other "evil" deities in the Bible are demi-gods at most. But holding them equally responsible for human suffering as god would make them equal to god, and thus equal candidates for worship.
Christians would claim that unlike god, Satan is not omnipotent and needs an army of demons to lead us into "big sins", or simply watching porn on a rainy afternoon.
So there is no anti-God in the Bible, and we will be judged personally by that theology, so the "devil made me do it" won't fly on the Christian judgement day.
If judgement day ever happens (yeah right) I'll use the excuse that Christians behaved so badly that it made me choose Satan, and ain't that the truth. More judgement on them, ha!



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 09:44 PM
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Elaine Paigels, "The Origins of Satan". A most excellent book concerning the elevation of a minor angel from the early Torah into the personification of human suffering by the Book of Job and then, into the nemesis of the Christ in the New Testament. It's a fascinating read and heartily recommended to anyone that desires to gain a better understanding of Christianity and its beginnings. Basically the Hebraic STN translates into a stumbling block of some sort. You'll probably be amazed at how often this guy shows up in the Old Testament.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 09:45 PM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


You believe what you want,I'll believe what I want.

Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 

Sure, no worries. I did have a twist of irony though.
Hey, were're all tolerant people here.
Just, I cannot quite see what you believe by that passage, you could be Christian or another off-shoot of Judaism, perhaps even Muslim???

Yeah, pity about the Amorites and how "god" commanded their slaughter: man, woman, child and babe, even their livestock. Now there's a Mel Gibson movie waiting to be made!

And for what? Lucifer couldn't keep up if he tried.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:07 PM
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Lucifer is indeed an interesting character to study in Christian mythology. I've never seen him as "evil". It seems God can hold a grudge. He'll stick to his word but his relationship with Lucifer isn't all out war



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


"I told you, `I am the LORD your God. You must not worship the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you now live.' But you have not listened to me." - Judges 6:10

Who am I to question God's intentions? The Amorites worshipped a sun god,if I am not mistaken.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:16 PM
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reply to post by gwydionblack
 


I don't know if I believe in Lucifer per se. What I can say is that the human ego is something akin to what Lucifer represents. Power, greed, corruption, vanity, reverence for idols all come from ego. Knowledge, don't we all want to be right?

Could it be possible that the lawless one spoken of in the bible is really a metaphor that in the end days the ego of man will be exposed? If that is what it means, I am seeing it so prevalent now days.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:17 PM
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If you saw him then you would know for sure why he is the bad one. He is extremely hideous with an ego and an attitude to match, and he hates humans more than anything else in existance, and lives only to see your personal destruction. Even dev worshipers are hated by the one they think are serving.
Some people like myself have been witness to such things in real life visions and it was not something I want to repeat. Do not ever have any sympathy for him, that would be very stupid.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:23 PM
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Sorry if someone already mentioned, but I think its probably because those in power want to remain in power.

Lucifer is the symbol of wisdom(light in the darkness) the same way the apple from the tree of knowledge is 'bad'.

Why would knowledgeable fruit be bad to eat?

Also, this ties into why the 'occult' has been associated with 'the devil'(the evil opposite).

So those in power could deem anything 'occult' as 'bad' to those brainwashed under control.

This, what I have just said, is blasphemy to those in power... assuming there is a grain of knowledge or wisdom contained in it.

Of course times are changing, though.

My 2c.



edit to add a good link for denying ignorance about allegories and mythologies and stories and symbolism: Theosophy.Org

From the Theosophical Glossary on the definition of Lucifer:

Lucifer (Lat.). The planet Venus, as the bright “Morning Star”. Before Milton, Lucifer had never been a name of the Devil. Quite the reverse, since the Christian Saviour is made to say of himself in Revelations (xvi. 22.) “I am . . . the bright morning star” or Lucifer. One of the early Popes of Rome bore that name; and there was even a Christian sect in the fourth century which was called the Luciferians.


[edit on 7-4-2010 by beebs]



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 

Well all humans worshipped something, there's no evidence of any conversion attempt before the genocide. The Amorites were simply in the way. By that logic all humanity except for the Abrahamic tribe was worthy of annihilation.

Many claim that modern Christians have a big slap of sun-god worship. Jesus turns into the sun-god figure during the transfiguration, and the cross is the ancient sun symbol. He goes up to heaven on a cloud to sit with the "heavenly farther". The specific Jewish sabbath was changed by pagans to Sunday, and pagan timing was adopted that measured days from noon to midnight, when the sun-god was at his highest locally or opposite the globe. They also rejected the Jewish moon-calendar to adopt pagan feasts with double meanings, and seasons guided by solar eqinoxes. So if anyone deserves the fate of the Amorites for worshipping the sun-god, I guess it's the Christians (although nobody deserves that fate). If the narrative is true it was the God-ordained "Rwanda" of the Bronze Age.



[edit on 7-4-2010 by halfoldman]



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


"My god would never ask one of his children to kill their son for his pleasure. He is love. "

but did he not he send his own son to die on a cross ?
pretty sadistic dont you think?



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:35 PM
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As far as god giving us the gift of 'free will' I'm a little on the fence. If god is all knowing then there is no free will. If he knows the future and everything that is going to happen then our destinies are preordained. If that's the case then we aren't making any decisions, we are on a set path. So any sins we commit are caused by gods will. Of course thats only IF god is all knowing.

[edit on 7-4-2010 by IllMannered]



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:43 PM
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Wow... fantastic thread!

I've been thinking much about such things lately. I'm wondering if there is another level above the Jesuit general, someone or something even more secretive giving him his orders.

The genius of what has been done to humanity is nothing short of amazing. It would not surprise me at this point to learn that there is an actual physical Satan running the show... All actions from the hierarchy, historical and contemporary, are consistent with this theory.

You've all brought up excellent points. God standing outside of time/space/matter would have foreseen the entire downfall of man at the behest of Satan, so why orchestrate it like this to begin with?

Satan definitely has the purpose today to force us to look inward, all things of this world corrupted and unsatisfying, to ultimately reject this world and discover what we really are.

Back in the olden days it was about Murphy's law... Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. The one thing that could go wrong is independent consciousness beyond what we understand as sentience, when man begins to see himself as separate and distinct from God.

We must endure pain of material existence without obeying the call of luxury and ease made possible by the suffering of others. God will create the perfect world anew, but the simple inclusion of a bad apple would itself make the perfect world cease to be the perfect world.

*edit* a few more thoughts...

The material world is the most high-tech of all aspects of creation. Satan was God's wisest and most beautiful work who had chose to embrace this wonder of material existence above the quiet and subjective world behind the scenes.

Instead of looking inward, Satan chooses to simply look in the mirror.

Instead of true strength, which is inherent in morality, he chooses instead to embrace the way of beasts, of might makes right.

The irony with mankind today is that it is as if the apple had never been bitten, and they choose to follow unconsciously the wrong God. So we who possess consciousness, knowledge of good and evil, are more likely to reject the lies for what they are, preferring instead to embrace God and attempt to bring others to this understanding.

Evolution is based on "ye shall be as Gods" and the new age movement is worship of the creation rather than the creator, who alone possesses the omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience necessary to have constructed this to begin with.



[edit on 7-4-2010 by ancientfuturist]



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