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Why is Lucifer the bad one?

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posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:43 PM
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Some of the esoteric texts say Lucifer is just playing a role so mankind can learn from the experiences. How can you appreciate good without experiencing evil? How can you appreciate light without knowing darkness. etc.

What's interesting about the Christians religions is everyone damns to hell those that killed Christ yet it is his death Christians rely on to be saved so those who killed Christ did Christian a great service for which they could not be saved without. Some of these texts say Judas was appointed to do what he did and was really a hero etc.

So maybe this is all just a big stage or hollideck for us to learn to appreciate the good by experiencing the bad and the difference...




posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:46 PM
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OP...i asked this question in church when i was young, i got thrown out. They could not answer my questions, that god has no enemy and he created Satan in a imperfect way. God is like a paradox parable to time travel. It boggles the mind on how much doesn't add up and millions go along with all the hear say that is the Bible.

My belief is that no one and i mean NO ONE (including me), with all the Billions and Billions of people in this world have the right answer on the universe and the afterlife. We simply don't know and cant prove squat on why we are here and where we came from. We are a spec of dust in this universe.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


I am part of no church so I do not have to worry about blaspheming. I would never sit so idly by as to have a congregation tell me how to worship my God, whatever he/she/it may be.

reply to post by On the Edge
 


I hear that quote much more often then I would like to from Christians. "God did not want robots". I hear it so much so that it would border on the line of robotic, monotonous thinking, wouldn't you think?



The reason for Christ's dying on the cross is to offer redemption for a "fallen" world,so that when we are "in Christ",God no longer looks and sees us,He sees His Son,who is blameless.


But so too was Lucifer "blameless" by God's own words. If Christ was to offer redemption to the sinners, than what of those that came before Christ? What about man being created in God's image and thus already being his sons and daughters?





My main jilt is this: the followers of any religion focusing on the book of the Bible would like to believe God to be perfect in every way, unable to make mistakes. Isn't Lucifer a blatant mistake and thus the driving stake into the "perfection" of God?

mis-take
–noun
1.
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
2.
a misunderstanding or misconception.


God made it clear in the Bible that he did not intend for the door to sin to be opened to man, and that he blames Lucifer for tempting Adam in the Garden. In my opinion God is flawed in the fact that even though he is omnipotent, all knowing, and all seeing - he is unable to take responsibility for his own actions and thus shows the flaw of placing the blame on another.

To me, more and more, it seems that the REAL Holy Trinity would be God, Jesus, and Lucifer - and qualities of each entities make up humanity. God - the controller and judgment bringer, Jesus - the teacher of love, peace, and forgiveness, and Lucifer - the seeker of enlightenment and wisdom. Each had their flaws, each had their strengths - each show human weakness.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 11:22 PM
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reply to post by ancientfuturist
 

Those who seek honesty will look in the mirror. If there is a God maybe we are his mirror. Maybe that's why he's so harsh with humanity.
Promising a new, perfect world? All the cults and sects do that and existentially it helps us nothing. It's simply their bread and butter. Just like politicians - always promises that never come to fruition.
Waiting for Godot? (See the Beckett play.)



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 11:26 PM
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reply to post by gwydionblack
 

I tend to agree with you on the trinity of God/Jesus/Lucifer (according to Jung, the shadow brother of Christ).
It also brings us closer to the Hindu trinity of the Godhead expansions: Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva. The creator, the sustainer, and the destroyer.



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by On the Edge
 

Well all humans worshipped something, there's no evidence of any conversion attempt before the genocide. The Amorites were simply in the way. By that logic all humanity except for the Abrahamic tribe was worthy of annihilation.

Many claim that modern Christians have a big slap of sun-god worship. Jesus turns into the sun-god figure during the transfiguration, and the cross is the ancient sun symbol. He goes up to heaven on a cloud to sit with the "heavenly farther". The specific Jewish sabbath was changed by pagans to Sunday, and pagan timing was adopted that measured days from noon to midnight, when the sun-god was at his highest locally or opposite the globe. They also rejected the Jewish moon-calendar to adopt pagan feasts with double meanings, and seasons guided by solar eqinoxes. So if anyone deserves the fate of the Amorites for worshipping the sun-god, I guess it's the Christians (although nobody deserves that fate). If the narrative is true it was the God-ordained "Rwanda" of the Bronze Age.



[edit on 7-4-2010 by halfoldman]


It's true that mostly all "organized religions" follow "pagan" traditions,because the Catholic church has done a number on them!

I am always saying that Christianity and Catholicism are not the same.

The Catholic church exalts itself above the teachings of the Lord,and that is another clue as to why it is the church of the anti-christ,"who leads the whole world astray"!




"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act... And the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things." H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.

"Sunday is our MARK of authority. . .the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact" Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1,1923.

"Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles .... From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first." (Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August, 1900.)

The Word of God says:
Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

The word of Rome says:
"The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." "The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." -Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. (The Pope can modify divine law.) Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary.


www.remnantofgod.org...



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by network dude
 


I am part of no church so I do not have to worry about blaspheming. I would never sit so idly by as to have a congregation tell me how to worship my God, whatever he/she/it may be.

reply to post by On the Edge
 


I hear that quote much more often then I would like to from Christians. "God did not want robots". I hear it so much so that it would border on the line of robotic, monotonous thinking, wouldn't you think?



The reason for Christ's dying on the cross is to offer redemption for a "fallen" world,so that when we are "in Christ",God no longer looks and sees us,He sees His Son,who is blameless.


But so too was Lucifer "blameless" by God's own words. If Christ was to offer redemption to the sinners, than what of those that came before Christ? What about man being created in God's image and thus already being his sons and daughters?





My main jilt is this: the followers of any religion focusing on the book of the Bible would like to believe God to be perfect in every way, unable to make mistakes. Isn't Lucifer a blatant mistake and thus the driving stake into the "perfection" of God?

mis-take
–noun
1.
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
2.
a misunderstanding or misconception.


God made it clear in the Bible that he did not intend for the door to sin to be opened to man, and that he blames Lucifer for tempting Adam in the Garden. In my opinion God is flawed in the fact that even though he is omnipotent, all knowing, and all seeing - he is unable to take responsibility for his own actions and thus shows the flaw of placing the blame on another.

To me, more and more, it seems that the REAL Holy Trinity would be God, Jesus, and Lucifer - and qualities of each entities make up humanity. God - the controller and judgment bringer, Jesus - the teacher of love, peace, and forgiveness, and Lucifer - the seeker of enlightenment and wisdom. Each had their flaws, each had their strengths - each show human weakness.





Lucifer was perfect until he decided to rebel. We are all "fearfully and wonderfully made",but thanks to sin,which no one is incapable of avoiding if you're human.we are in need of a redeemer.(That's what the Bible says.)

God became man and took responsibility for our sin,being put to death,if only we would believe in Him. His resurrection is proof of new life for those who turn to Him.(Again,that's what it says!)

The Holy Spirit,as you know,is the Comforter,a sure sign He is with us,as any Born-Again Christian can attest to.

I think one reason normal,thinking people have a problem with the Bible is that they try to make sense out of it from a human perspective,and don't understand how God could do this or that.

Well,His ways are not our ways,and no one can know the mind of God,apart from the word of God,and definetly not without being led by the Spirit,which leads us to understanding...but it comes through Faith. Faith that He is all He says and we need to humble ourselves before Him. That very thought causes much animosity in people,as in "Who is this God who says we need to believe a certain way!?" Satan says,"No,don't believe Him,you can be like God,..It's God who is wrong!"

It is Satan who says we can achieve this status through "enlightenment". He lies. All he has accomplished is to lead people away from the truth.

And if you've been following,(I mean,by way of studying-from a Christian perspective-otherwise you just get it all sounding like a good thing!) all the Luciferian doctrines,you see they are against God in every way.(And those beliefs are held by those with the most power in the world today.)

But don't forget all the wonderfully smart people who have gone on to do great things,God isn't against that. He doesn't want us to be imbeciles,or he wouldn't have given us such extraordinary brains and the penchant for curiosity. Why do we feel the need to deny God in doing so? Because things "don't make sense"?

Again,it all boils down to that little element of faith and not needing to be like God,to have all the answers. It was never Supreme Knowledge that saved people anyway,was it?

(Wish this hadn't been moved to BTS! Doesn't seem any different than other threads that have been Above...???)

Oh well,I hope I've answered some of your questions. (I didn't know the word 'robots" was used so much.Sorry about that! Guess it fits though.)

P.S. I am not a church-goer either. Never liked it,never needed it. His true church is those who believe in Him,and "when two or more are gathered in my name".


[edit on 8-4-2010 by On the Edge]



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 

A nice way of putting your case.
However, you say you have that "holy spirit". The problem is some other individual or sect will fault you on a technicality, and they will also claim to have it.
There are thousands of Christian groups who all claim they, or their stream is the only one with the holy spirit.
And that "holy ghost' seems to be telling them all something different.
Some it tells to send money to prosperity preachers, others it tells that such preachers are heretics. And it seems to give a variety of messages on Israel, the gays, prophesy, worship, TV evangelists and it even still tells some to handle live poisonous snakes.
The holy spirit is not very consistant, it seems.



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 04:13 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


Like you've said,it all comes down to personal responsibility. I can't account for what others choose to believe. I do think God will judge us accordingly,and I pray for mercy in that respect,for all human beings. Only He knows what is in our hearts.

I have turned back to God more than ever in the last couple of years,seeing what I've seen,and believing our time is short.(I mean,individually,that could be ANY time!)

But just look how difficult it is to get people to "wake up" to what's happening in the world,for those who are stuck on stupid,(American Idol,that kind of thing) They don't see past the T.Vor the new tech gadget.

You can imagine how busy Satan is keeping people from wanting to look for truth from God,when there are so many other,less "narrow" paths available. The Bible says that only Jesus is "the way,the truth,and the life". No one comes to the Father but through Him.(And that,thanks to our Luciferian leaders,is now considered "Hate-Speech".) Makes sense,doesn't it?

I've always said that even if I die and find out I was wrong,I will still be glad that I believed the way I do. And all I can say is that each person is unique and must choose for themselves. In the Bible,it says that all will be revealed and we will be without excuse.



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 04:43 AM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 

You have great faith in your path, and kudos for that.
In the world family of faiths, is the modern evangelical path really narrow? I'd like to see the Christians fasting from sunrise to sunset like the Muslims! But you are saved by faith and not works, so why even bring up narrow paths?
You say you'll be happy to have believed what you did even if you were wrong about the afterlife. Really? Well if the Muslims are right (or another sect of Christianity) you're gonna burn in Allah's hell, and you'll regret the day you left a single God for a "trinity heresy" (for example).
You have no proof that your current path doesn't put you in the same afterlife danger of hell as you may preach to others to terrify them into your religious cult.



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by On the Edge
 

You have great faith in your path, and kudos for that.
In the world family of faiths, is the modern evangelical path really narrow? I'd like to see the Christians fasting from sunrise to sunset like the Muslims! But you are saved by faith and not works, so why even bring up narrow paths?
You say you'll be happy to have believed what you did even if you were wrong about the afterlife. Really? Well if the Muslims are right (or another sect of Christianity) you're gonna burn in Allah's hell, and you'll regret the day you left a single God for a "trinity heresy" (for example).
You have no proof that your current path doesn't put you in the same afterlife danger of hell as you may preach to others to terrify them into your religious cult.


I'd say that believing in Jesus as the only path is pretty narrow,indeed. It's "not by works,so no man should boast". The fruit of the spirit is that we desire to live as Christ,and to suffer with Him,being persecuted as well,if that is the case.

I do not consider "the Father,Son,and the Holy Spirit" to be heresy,because it is that doctrine that the gospels preach,and I am a believer in that.

I'm not a part of any "cult",and I don't use "hell" to terrify anyone. I do like to expose the lies of Satan and how he has led people astray,because most people do not like being lied to.It's even harder for people to admit they may have been deceived though.

If the Bible is true,and the world is going to become increasingly violent,there is no hope for this planet. I would rather preach the good news of a kingdom not of this world,where "He has gone to prepare a place for us",and the faith that we are told not to fear when we see these things happening.

We really won't have that "proof" everyone wants until the end comes,and we see the Lord return. By then,it will be too late for those who have denied Him.

There have always been different beliefs and always will be. I'm looking forward to the day when we shall all know the truth,one way or another.

As for me,I am living by my faith,humbling myself in prayer,seeking His guidance,living at peace with one another as much as I am able,I've changed alot of my old ways that were considered "sinful" and am hoping that God is indeed merciful in His judgement. I can do no more than that!

[edit on 8-4-2010 by On the Edge]



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 08:53 AM
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Why is Lucifer the bad one?


Because he lost...

The loser of any war is automatically the "bad one"... Just look at our own history to see the examples....



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 10:49 AM
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Lucifer is not the bad one.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people to worship false idols and worship zombies and vampires.

But he did achieve it though.

I think Satan probably is the true one.


I'm not even remotely religious and have no vested interest as to who or what is the right or wrong religion, However I do believe that Christians in particular have been duped.

And come that fateful day (Judgement day) there will be a lot of pissed off people and many in for a shock.



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 11:53 AM
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This is a sad example of another person without understanding ruinging more souls, and the sadder part it it's given 7 flags from more souls without understanding themselves.


1. Satan never wanted to experience Gods power. he wanted to be God and the only one who is worshipped, forgetting his creator, and not acknowledging his superior. It was pride. Not curiosity.


2. Free will has to be given to souls, or esle, we wouldn't be able to chose on our own, our existence and path.


3. The good outwieghs the bad. Gods lovers his saints outwieghs the Devil who he did make, but that's irrelevant. Because the good outweighs the bad. meaning the souls who would believe.


4. Love is from God. It's not from satan. He's the bad guy because if you didn't read the bible, he's full of hatred. He hates humans guts.


And btw why would you mention the first part of the bible and acknolegde the part of him falling from grace. Yet you didn't acknowldge this part.?


" He is the father of lies "

" full of hatred "

those parts of the bible. So not only does that make him the bad guy, it makes him a liar and the baddest creature ever to exist because his lack of God in the soul.

You remove God you remove love..

If you were to see Satan in person which saints have. Padre Pio. He would screem, curse, and want to rip your limbs apart and laugh at it.

He's graceless.

peace OP.

[edit on 8-4-2010 by JesusisTruth]



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 12:18 PM
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and think about it OP... I mean really think about it.

You use the only source of Satans existence for proof, YET, God is the author of the bible.

So that would mean satans good, YET, God is evil and made satan the good one when he himself is bad.

which means God put love in Satan and he himself is deprived of goodness which is impossible and a contradiction.


I don't think Satan is sitting around picking daisies singing I love you song with Barney all day....

No. He's evil. It's a lack of God in the soul.

God made Good. For him to put goodness in creatures YET be deprived of it is impossible let alone logical.


So Instead of satan staying with God, he lost God and the love God placed in him. it's graces infused into the soul.

So everything Satan did was pride baised. He could of been like God as Jesus himself says.


" they were like gods "

" i want you to be my freinds "

God even said the saints are like Christs. They are gods. But full of HUMILITY.... which means they recognize their start.

So again, Satan didn't have this quality a great virtue. God is looking for humiltiy.



So like I said the good out weighs the bad. Becuase of what the saints have become on Earth.


peace.



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 01:03 PM
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Ahh....but did you ever see Devil's Advocate? Excellent film... Al Pacino plays the devil. Keanu Reeves' character says, "But the Bible says you lose"...to which Al replies, "Consider the source son!".... He's got a point..
Of course the Bible would denounce Lucifer, that's all I'm saying.

God's been no angel either...I mean, toasting the Egyptians' kids just because Pharoah used slaves...that little matter of a flood....don't even get me started on some of the poor saps he tortured just to prove they'd still love him.

The thing is, religious stories are bound to portray these beings as having more human emotions, reactions, etc. So good, and bad, are really just from a certain point of view...if you think about it.



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 04:47 PM
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Sin is not doing the will of God.
Satan sinned by believing he knew better, which Adan and Eve accepted from the serpent.
God does know better, and wants what is best for us.
Satan is willing to destroy mankind for his purposes.
God is willing to die as a man to save them.



posted on Apr, 8 2010 @ 09:09 PM
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Sorry not is willing,, was willing,,



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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Is dying with the full KNOWLEDGE (for this is what he believed it to be, and what it would have to be, if truly divine) of eternal life really THAT much of a sacrifice?

Or is it more like taking off a shirt?

I'm just saying to think about it...



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 
Jesus found himself in a situation where he was a healthy, relatively young man with what could have been a bright and productive future before him.
Satan was in a situation where he was as good as a god in this material world, all he needed to do was to exert his free will for his own improvement.
Jesus had to tell himself, from this minute on, I have no free will and whatever happens to me is solely in the hands of others who are all-powerful to act on whatever whim comes to them.



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