Some Questions for Christians (and others)

I was raised Catholic and am now a Pagan. I do have a few questions to ask Christians about their faith:

1. For those who believe that Jesus was God incarnate on Earth, who was minding the Universe while God was a human being?

2. If Jesus is his own separate person, did he exist with God before he was born?

3. If Jesus is his own separate person, then are you not worshiping two Gods?

4. Mary is considered the Mother of God, does that make her a Goddess?

I have never received any clear answers on these questions, and would like honest feedback on them.

I'll give it a shot-

1. God can be in several all places at once.

2. Yes, all 3 existed- The Trinity: The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost.

3. See #2

4. Mary was the Earth mother of Jesus, not God.

just my 2 cents...

reply to post by kidflash2008

1. For those who believe that Jesus was God incarnate on Earth, who was minding the Universe while God was a human being?

God the father of course.

2. If Jesus is his own separate person, did he exist with God before he was born?

Jesus is the second person of the blessed trinity. Jesus is God therefore he did exist before himself as human in the second person.

3. If Jesus is his own separate person, then are you not worshiping two Gods?

No. one God three persons.

4. Mary is considered the Mother of God, does that make her a Goddess?

Mary was the mother of Jesus who is God in the second person

I have never received any clear answers on these questions, and would like honest feedback on them.

I would go back to who ever raised you so called Catholic and complain that they did not teach you properly.

Originally posted by kidflash2008


3. If Jesus is his own separate person, then are you not worshiping two Gods?

I'm not sure whether this will clear things up or make them worse;

The word "person" in this teaching doesn't actually mean "distinct human individual", in the modern sense, so saying that "God is three persons" is not intended to mean that "God is three people"- that is why Christianity is not about worshipping three Gods.

But that is NOT a subject you want to get into without taking many cups of coffee first.

Thank you for your replies. I take it that Christians believe Jesus was God incarnate on Earth, not a separate individual.

I was always confused about that one growing up.

Personally, I believe Jesus was a regular man who may have had some supernatural abilities. He married and had children, and lived a normal life until he decided to claim the titles King of Jews as he was a direct descendant of David through his biological father Joseph (no virgin birth here).

Originally posted by kidflash2008
Thank you for your replies. I take it that Christians believe Jesus was God incarnate on Earth, not a separate individual.

Ah- well, technically Christians believe that Jesus is God Incarnate AND a human individual. There's a balancing idea of remembering that Jesus is God without forgetting that Jesus is human, and vice-versa.

Connecting this relationship with the "three persons" of the Trinity is another tricky balancing act, not for the faint-hearted, so I won't go there.

Originally posted by kidflash2008
1. For those who believe that Jesus was God incarnate on Earth, who was minding the Universe while God was a human being?

We often inadvertently limit God based on our own experience. We, as humans, aren't capable of seeing everything and being in one place at the same time. God was still minding the Universe, just as God was speaking things into being while God (the Holy Spirit) moved and made it happen. Don't believe the theology of Dogma -- it's not based on scripture

2. If Jesus is his own separate person, did he exist with God before he was born?

Yep. The Bible says in John 1 -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God ... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. "

He is separate and the same, at the same time. There are similarities in His creation, but nothing perfectly demonstrates this. One example would be elements -- they can be solid, liquid or gas. Just because it is a gas at one temperature doesn't mean it's a different element.

3. If Jesus is his own separate person, then are you not worshiping two Gods?

See above.

4. Mary is considered the Mother of God, does that make her a Goddess?

Nope. She was a human, just like you and me. That was actually necessary to fulfill a prophecy in the beginning of Genesis, as well as to fulfill a promise to David by God that the messiah would come from his line. He was born of a human, but conceived by the Holy Spirit. This essentially placed Him in a situation that the Adam of Genesis was in, though more tenuous. He was free of sin and of that original curse, but at the same time was surrounded by a world embracing it. This is how scripture is capable of saying He had experienced all the temptations we've experienced.

Something that can muddle this is the Catholic doctrine that Mary was without sin. There is no Biblical support of this short of a single statement by an angle who said, in the King James, "Hail, Mary, full of grace." In our current language, this sounds like the angel is saluting her, but at the time "hail" simply meant "yo," "hey there," or "hello." Full of grace? Well, God chose her to carry Christ -- that was a bit of grace on His part!

So that's my quick two cents. If you want more detail on any of them, I am happy to comply.

Edit: Fixed quote tags.

[edit on 4/1/2010 by junglejake]

reply to post by junglejake

Don't believe the theology of Dogma -- it's not based on scripture

No, however it is based on truth. Isnt that what scripture is based on.. truth?
Scripture does not go as far as theology however God did give us a brain to contemplate these truths(dogma).Tell me differently.

Also please explain how Mary(the mother of GOD) was not without sin?

I would love to hear Junglejakes dogma of the virgin Mary.



[edit on 1-4-2010 by oliveoil]

[edit on 1-4-2010 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by kidflash2008
1. For those who believe that Jesus was God incarnate on Earth, who was minding the Universe while God was a human being?

jesus is not god incarnate.

john 5:[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

2. If Jesus is his own separate person, did he exist with God before he was born?

yes

john 8:[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ("i have been")

he is also the firsborn of all creation

col 1:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

3. If Jesus is his own separate person, then are you not worshiping two Gods?

jesus NEVER tells us to worship him. in fact he directs all worship to his father.

matt 4:[10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

4. Mary is considered the Mother of God, does that make her a Goddess?

Mary is never refered to as the "mother of god" in the bible. there also is no evidence that the first century christians ever worshipped mary.

mary worship didnt start in the church until the second century

reply to post by miriam0566

Mary is never refered to as the "mother of god" in the bible. there also is no evidence that the first century christians ever worshipped mary.

No, but Jesus was referred to as the "Son of God" many many many times.

Wouldnt common sense tell us that Mary was indeed the mother of God if Jesus was the son of God?
Dogma? Please...

Originally posted by oliveoil

Mary is never refered to as the "mother of god" in the bible. there also is no evidence that the first century christians ever worshipped mary.

No, but Jesus was referred to as the "Son of God" many many many times.

Wouldnt common sense tell us that Mary was indeed the mother of God if Jesus was the son of God?
Dogma? Please...

re-read what you just posted.

if jesus is the SON of God, then how does that make mary the mother of god? mary didnt give birth to God. she gave birth to God's son....

Originally posted by miriam0566

if jesus is the SON of God, then how does that make mary the mother of god? mary didnt give birth to God. she gave birth to God's son....

This point was argued out in the early church. Around 431 AD, there were people in Constantinople, including the Patriarch Nestorius, who objected to the title "Mother of God". The argument was that she was only the mother of the human side of Christ.

The Church got together in General Council and decided- to cut a very long story short- that the human and divine aspects of Christ are tied so closely together that the mother of one must be called the mother of both. Otherwise you risk separating them out and hence effectively denying the divinity of Christ.

I'm not currently a Christian, or any other organized faith, but I certainly did my share of Bible school, etc. But going from other religious ideas, and the scriptures, I make the following conjectures, on the faith's ideas....

Some Questions for Christians (and others)

1. For those who believe that Jesus was God incarnate on Earth, who was minding the Universe while God was a human being?

Jesus was an "avatar" of God (God sent some of his divine essence into Mary, to give birth to Jesus)....God still reigned in Heaven.

2. If Jesus is his own separate person, did he exist with God before he was born?

Yes, his energy was in God, prior to birth.

3. If Jesus is his own separate person, then are you not worshiping two Gods?

The energy that is Jesus, is still of God, (i.e. the Trinity)...so you're still worshipping that energy.

4. Mary is considered the Mother of God, does that make her a Goddess?

No, there is no divinity within Mary, it was just in her while Jesus was inside...although, many sects hold that in the process, she still retains some divinity, sainthood, etc.

As with any religion, it's all a matter of interpretation...and these are my own views, based on what I've gleaned from the scriptures, and taking them in a context with other religions...

reply to post by oliveoil


I was actually talking about the movie, not the concept

As to Mary, if she was without sin, scripture is inaccurate. Christ is God, and this is demonstrated by His ability not to sin in this world. He was redeemed from the original sin, and could turn away from all others. The Bible says all have fallen short of the glory of God, as well as it is by grace through faith you were saved, and not by works. If Mary was without sin, in her case, it would be through works she was saved, which would mean the Bible was wrong.

If we take just what is written in scripture, there is nothing that states Mary is without sin. Yet, again, if we take just what is written in scripture, if Mary was without sin, the Bible is wrong and we can't trust any of it. Paul said all of scripture is God-breathed. If that is the case, and the Bible is wrong, that makes God a liar and therefore we can't trust a thing He says. However, if Mary is as much a sinner as your or I, falling short of the law, which, again, scripture says is impossible to attain but instead is to show us our separation from God, then scripture is completely accurate.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by oliveoil

Mary is never refered to as the "mother of god" in the bible. there also is no evidence that the first century christians ever worshipped mary.

No, but Jesus was referred to as the "Son of God" many many many times.

Wouldnt common sense tell us that Mary was indeed the mother of God if Jesus was the son of God?
Dogma? Please...

re-read what you just posted.

if jesus is the SON of God, then how does that make mary the mother of god? mary didnt give birth to God. she gave birth to God's son....

Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is God in the second person of the blessed trinity. This would make Mary the mother of God. Get it?

Originally posted by oliveoil

Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is God in the second person of the blessed trinity. This would make Mary the mother of God. Get it?

so mary is the mother of the son of god, but because jesus is his own father, that makes mary the mother of god?

do you even see how ridiculous that sounds?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
The Church got together in General Council and decided- to cut a very long story short- that the human and divine aspects of Christ are tied so closely together that the mother of one must be called the mother of both. Otherwise you risk separating them out and hence effectively denying the divinity of Christ.

exactly. make one false doctrine (not based on the bible) to support another false doctrine (not supported by the bible)

Originally posted by miriam0566


exactly. make one false doctrine (not based on the bible) to support another false doctrine (not supported by the bible)

No. more a case of; belief in divinity of Christ forced upon us by the NT, therefore try to avoid statements which would conflict with that, even indirectly.
The problem is that we are trying to describe the indescribable, with the result that any simple description is inaccurate almost by definition. That's the only reason why the teaching got so complcated.

I want to thank olive, disraeli, miriam and others for posting here. This is a lively discussion that has not turned into name calling. Interpretation seems to be the driving force in the answers to my questions.

I also want to wish everyone here a very happy and peaceful Easter.

To all the other faiths, nonbelievers, Pagans and Wiccans I wish peace to them also.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
a case of; belief in divinity of Christ forced upon us by the NT,

where? i keep hearing this claim, but i never see any evidence to back it up