Is AREA 51 still considered Restrictive?

reply to post by darpa999


Trust me, the air space over Groom Lake is restricted. Even if you are in the USAF in a military jet, you can't simply take a tour of Groom Lake. The airspace is considered a "neutral country" during Red Flag, with no overflight allowed. Any pilot "breaking the box" during the flag is told to land at Nellis and get chewed out (AKA debriefed) and potentially sent home from the exercise.

Thx gariac,

Yes, but if there is no Red Flag operations going on, then Area 51 complex is not restrictive.

If Area 51 would be still restrictive, then Google Earth would not even have the complex appear almost in 3-D or other map applications.

Area 51 was active during the 60's and 70's, and back then, yes it was secured. But not now. They even have tours for civilians.

reply to post by darpa999


Hi!

I think there may be confusion between Department of Energy's Nevada Test Site to the south of Groom Lake (which does have tours for the public) and Groom Lake Area/51 which doesn't appear to - certainly the last time I was there the camo dudes weren't advertising tours.

Regarding restricted airspace (sometimes called 'the box') it is restricted irrespective of there being a Red Flag excercise or not.

Peace!

No, Im talking about the AREA 51 facility itself (Airport ICAO Code KXTA).
It is NOT restrictive anymore. And as a matter of fact, you can reserve a JANET flight for civilians to take a tour of AREA 51 complex.

AREA 51 is just a historical facility / airport and has no classified or restrictive value anymore.....So, yes, even civilians can take tours over there. Trust me, the AREA 51 or Groom Lake facility has no restrictions anymore since those days are over....

I mean think about it.....Why would the AREA 51 complex be secret now since all the Black Projects were done there back in the 60's through the 70's??











[edit on 6-4-2010 by darpa999]

[edit on 6-4-2010 by darpa999]

[edit on 6-4-2010 by darpa999]

reply to post by darpa999


Hi Darpa999,

Would appreciate it if you could point me at where you got the information regarding JANET flights and tours.


Peace!

Well, since AREA 51 is not restrictive anymore, Janet flights are used to take civilians to that complex and take tours of it.

I just got this info because AREA 51 now is just a historical facility.
Its not secretive as it was back during the Cold War error when all those Black Projects were going on.

So, this made me believe that AREA 51 is actually open to the general public.

And in addition to this, the airspace over the Groom facility is now open too without the restrictions and stuff.

No external sources...This is just my assumptions.....

AREA 51 being still claimed as "TOP SECRET" today, is just a marketing hype up....Trust me, its not anymore...Anyone can go there to view the history part of it.

And also, there are no more Cammo dudes to guard it. The claims that they exist on other sites relating to Groom Lake / AREA 51 are very very old information. The sites are not updated.

Thanks.

Now, if you want to correct me on this theory, then feel free to do it.
I am open to any opinions either good or bad.

[edit on 6-4-2010 by darpa999]

[edit on 6-4-2010 by darpa999]

reply to post by darpa999


Hi Darpa999,

You are right in that JANETS are used to take civilians to Groom Lake - but not for tours but to work....just like a white bus transports locals in and out.

I really don't think you would get anywhere near the JANET terminal in Vegas without a suitable pass - it is still very secure (and has recently been enlarged). As are the roads.

There is some evidence that recently, if anything, work has intensified there - JANET flights on the week-end (unusual), noises of engines being testing, a new sealed road from the front gate into the facility (but not to the public road), and more local cars parked near the bus pick-up point over the week-ends.

I checked with one or two air routing services; KXTA still shows on current databases that it has no commercial traffic, another states that KXTA is not even on its global database whilst a 3rd has a piece about there being restricted airspace.

Peace!

Im sorry, but Area 51 is not secured anymore.
There are no testing going on there. Its all history....

Why would it be secure or still secret if work there was done in the 60s through the 70s???

Come on....

Its all open to tourism only.

Tell ya what. Go cross the border and see what happens. ;-)

I assure you R4808A is restricted airspace, and you can't freely cross the border. [Restricted airspace and ground border are not identical.]

Regarding the ICAO code for Groom Lake, there is much controversy. KXTA is the code that appears in the Honneywell database. KTKM is the code occasionally used for Groom Lake. Most of the time they file to KTNX (Tonopah Test Range), but then simply go to Groom Lake. You can tell the route by both altitude and fixes. Flights to/from Groom Lake are at 14kft/15kt. They generally include the fix FIDOE and/or SHOWW. Flights to the TTR generally fly over KTPH. If you are scanning at KLAS, you can listen to clearance/delivery to get the routing.]

In fact, no reporter has got on the Tonopah Test Range to my knowledge, though I know civilians have been able to get on base. If you are an expert bird watcher, you can go on the TTR and take part in the survey. Oh, you will have a minder, but that is probably a good thing since you never know what kind of crud their is on a range. [UXB not likely, but uniqnited flares and chaff are a real posibility. This is true in the MOAs as well.]

When the last 4 F-117a were landing at the TTR, a few of us filed for media passes. It was really entertaining since they didn't immediately tell us to go screw ourselves, but rather waited a while before saying no, just to make sure it really pissed us off. Besides the bird counters, the TTR has also sponsored two "family days" at the base. One assumes the secret stuff is tucked away.

moved to utah. still has NV activity. But utah is very confidential.

Im sorry guys....

But I thought AREA-51 itself (not the whole entire airspace) was not considered confidential since all of the classified projects were only done during the Cold War error.

If I am wrong about this...Please correct me on this.

And to the last comment regarding the new complex in Utah....
Would that be the Dugway Proving Grounds?

Thanks.

reply to post by darpa999


Hi!

You appear to change your terminology... your thread title incorrectly uses the word 'restrictive' - this implies Area 51 resticts others.... In fact the word is 'restricted.'

Now you are using the term 'confidential'

Restictive;

Of or relating to restriction.
Tending or serving to restrict; limiting.

Resticted;

Kept within certain limits; limited: on a restricted diet.
Excluding or unavailable to certain groups: a restricted area.
Of, relating to, or being information available only to authorized persons.

Confidential;

Done or communicated in confidence; secret.
Entrusted with the confidence of another: a confidential secretary.
Denoting confidence or intimacy: a confidential tone of voice.
Containing information, the unauthorized disclosure of which poses a threat to national security.

Earlier I asked for links to the 'tours' and 'flights' - but you replied it was an assumption.

Please take the tour, flight and photos and then present them here to the forum to prove your assumption. Failing that I agree with gariac - drive though the front or back gates and let us know the result. Think you might find yourself both in a restricted area which is restrictive.

Peace!




[edit on 7-4-2010 by The Wave]

Ok, 2 more questions on this topic and I will quit it for now.

Are commercial airliners to be allowed to make emergency landings if they had to for AREA-51? Suppose it would be their last resort?

And can they overfly the Groom lake complex (KXTA) without any restrictions?

All my questions so far regarding if Area 51 is still regarded as top secret is a mystery....And no one knows here for sure if it is or not. So i ask myself, then whats the point of me asking.....We all never been inside anyway....right???? Right.

Thanks for the responses.

[edit on 7-4-2010 by darpa999]

The airspace over Groom Lake is restricted to prevent overflight by unauthorized military, commercial, and other civilian air traffic.

In the past, military and civilian aircraft have made emergency landings at Area 51. Groom Lake was also designated a contingency landing site for the NASA X-15 rocket plane during the 1960s.

Since 1955, the Groom Lake facility has been used for classified aircraft and radar testing. Originally intended as a temporary facility, it was built up into a permanent base in the 1960s. Since then, and particularly in the past 10 years, it has continued to expand with new buildings, runways, and infrastructure. Just in the last few years, the growth has been dramatic.

There are currently numerous "black" projects underway at Groom Lake. Rumors that the base has closed down and that projects were moved to Utah are nonsense.

reply to post by darpa999


Hi Darpa999,

There are two or three guys on this board you should take note of - one is gariac and another is Shadowhawk - both of whom have given you considered replies. They are in the region frequently and really are serious, factual investigators.

In answer to your last post, Area51/Groom Lake is no longer a secret - many of us have Googled it, seen photos of it, travelled to the gates, photographed the camo dudes, however, although no longer 'secret' it is still restricted.

And why not keep it as a test facility? It's still well concealed and in the middle of nowhere and the logistics all appear to work. That's not to say that there aren't other more secret test facilities.

And please don't try and drive those roads through across the boundaries...!

Peace!

[edit on 7-4-2010 by The Wave]

Thanks for the replies.

Now back to the airpace restrictions.

1. But can commercial airliners still can make emergency landings though now considering if it was their last resort?

2. Suppose an airliner wanders off course towards Area 51, will they send fighter jets to just escort them down or what would be the procedure?
I know they will not "shoot" them down, but will they interview the pilots after they escort them down?

Reply to Shadowhawk:

If there are numerous "Black Projects" underway still at Groom Lake, then why would Google Earth show 3D images of the hangers and stuff and not "blurred" out? There are also street maps that show the entrances and stuff...

So, this made me really wonder if Groom is still working on Black Projects up to this date....Also, Groom Lake is now popular among tourist and stuff, so It made me really wonder if they moved their projects to somewhere else.







[edit on 7-4-2010 by darpa999]

[edit on 7-4-2010 by darpa999]

[edit on 7-4-2010 by darpa999]

Since private planes and military aircraft with emergencies have previously made landings at Groom Lake without incident, it is probably safe to assume that an airliner could make an emergency landing there as well. They might receive a fighter escort and the airplane would be isolated on the ground away from anything sensitive.

Satellite images on Google Earth are no real threat to activities at Groom Lake. Since satellite overhead times are well known, sensitive assets (such as test aircraft) can be placed under cover inside a hangar. They have been doing that since the 1960s. Documents from Area 51 mention "Sputnik overhead times" and (in the 1980s) "Nightshot Condition." Hangar 19, the Scoot-N-Hide shed, has been used to shelter aircraft preparing to take off or just after landing. There is no reason to blur out imagery on Google because it just shows a bunch of buildings. The secret airplanes are safely hidden inside.

reply to post by Shadowhawk


The rotating triangular tower is about the only thing that potentially the operating base near Groom Lake doesn't want seen, but have little choice due to it's size.

Potentially they can test quite a bit of stuff in the open. For instance, you can test an engine by taking a 4 engine plane and pulling one of the stock engines. They do this for commercial aircraft. Now it may not be as effective for military jets. New radar or ELINT can be mounted on very ordinary aircraft. And the base seemed to have few qualms about flying the SU-27 in the daytime, not to mention into the eastern MOAs once between Red Flag sessions when they knew photographers were around. They also flew Nighthawks for flameout training during the daylight.

Ok, I will admit this...

To be honest here, I want Area 51 to be kept mysterious and secret. Thats one of the reasons I keep asking these questions.

If Area 51 was not a secret base anymore, well then......that takes the fun out of it....

I want people to always wonder what really goes on there. So, thats why I put up all these questions if the base is still secret or not. And I want it to be secret for the fun of it.

Thx.

[edit on 8-4-2010 by darpa999]

Originally posted by darpa999
I have heard that Area 51 does not test classified aircraft anymore since those projects were during the Cold War error....The new classified projects are now somewhere else.

If this is indeed to be true, then why is the airspace (R-4808 area) still restricted from the surface to almost to outer space for civilian airliners?

Can you still overfly Area 51, even though it is not classified anymore?

Thanks.

If there are no new projects im sure its used as a storage facility of some kind, its worth a guess. The area is also very radioactive from nuclear testing i believe.