The implication being that yahweh is not in fact omniscient and has a tendency to fail to communicate with that which it is alleged to have created.

Seems like this god just cannot get it's creation to cooperate, wipe it out with a flood or try a different human form, nothing seems to work.

You explain /expect GOd to fill humanity's expectations, from a human perspective, since you have no other, herein lies the problem with religion.

Yeah, well, who says God is this or that, or perfect? Its something people choose to beleive as much as they choose to beleive he exist at all.
Dinosaurs had there shot, were successful (lived millions of years) in their time and life has moved on.
Were they meant to be perfect and exist forever? Are we?
Blaming God for what 'works' or dosent as far as we're concerned is a cop out. The natural world works fine, humanity is what it is, we will continue or we will not, why attribute either outcome to god?

Are we like pet goldfish? Give little johnny a goldfish and if it lives 20 yrs, say, jhonny is wonderful, if it carkes it next week, say johnny is a failure?
You expect him to care for the fish and the fish to thrive, but if the fish jumps from the bowl while johnny's at school, is it johnny's fault?

Men consistantly, 'jump from the bowl' , we make choices and our actions have consequences. A God as you describe is not a god, but a control freak. For him to prevent all the harm we do , limits the freedom he can allow us. If he limits our freedom, we are no more than biological automata, like animals, unable to do anything including great good like saving tiny babies with surgery, just as much as being unable to do destructive things.

Life itself is not 'perfect', nobody said it was meant to be except those who would assume to understand the reason for life to exist at all. Bit arrogant no?

[edit on 6-4-2010 by wayaboveitall]

I am former christian and have now called myself an atheist for a little over a year. It has been a long deconversion process because it is so hard to let go of the ways I was taught and raised to believe.

I have been enjoying this thread as well as the comments made by both sides (even though some are just ridiculous). Sig's posts make me realize how much there is to learn on the subject matter and I doubt I could ever grasp the things he has learned.

One thing that boggles my puny brain about the christian god, if he does turn out to be real, is how could he expect us in our fleshly bodies and weak minds to make the eternal decision to accept and believe in him when we've never touched, heard, nor seen him? There are those who in the O.T. and N.T. had seen, heard, and touched him yet still made wrong choices (Adam and Eve, Aaron, the Israelites, Peter denied Jesus, etc.). How are we expected to make the choice to believe in him without those experiences? It all comes down to faith, and that I do not have, not anymore. There are people of all beliefs who have faith that what they believe is true. They have ancient texts to study as well. They also die for their beliefs. Their faith doesn't make it true.

Does it matter if I believe in George Washington or other historical figures without seeing, hearing, or touching them? No. Does it matter if I believe in this christian god? Well, if he is real then yes it would matter because I could be punished eternally, if you prescribe to that doctrine. How would that be just?

The whole point is that PEOPLE makes claims about God. God, if he exist, has never said a single word. I dont think God would care less what we think really.
Theres a saying in the bible...'Does the clay ask of the potter, why did you make me so?'

All of nature, including us, function within the laws of nature. This gives us pretty wide range of choices. We can go on a hunger strike because we choose to. What has that choice got to do with God?

If you stock a manmade lake with fish, you expect nature to take its course. Some will die, birds will eat some, some will eat others, some will breed and make more.
You release the fish and thats that. You dont go back and swim with them everyday to prevent anything happening to them. Life adapts or dies, thats the limit of involvement. Why should a God be different?
Only because we expect it!

God, if you beleive one exist, has stocked the planet with life, just like our lake, and thats that, he's not a zookeeper.
Anything like favoritism, jealousy, vengence etc attributed to ANY God, is merely the reflection of those who beleive in him.

Its one thing to beleive a divine intelligence created the world, quite another to personify it and attribute our mentality or reasoning to it.

Originally posted by wayaboveitall
Theres a saying in the bible...'Does the clay ask of the potter, why did you make me so?'

This isn't the whole story. The potter loved his clay pots so much that he himself became a clay pot and lived among them, and died for them. If he is willing to do that, why wouldn't he be willing to answer the question, "why did you make me so"? This christian god didn't just stock the pond and set back and watch things take place. He interfered, many times. He destroyed all the fish in the pond except for a few, and started over. He picked out a certain species of fish in the pond and called them his, and had them make war with other species of fish. He became a fish himself and died for the other fish so they could live eternally with him. And so on.

Originally posted by wayaboveitall
Its one thing to beleive a divine intelligence created the world, quite another to personify it and attribute our mentality or reasoning to it.

This is all we can do because we are human. How can he, knowing how we are, expect us to do anything different than that?

This is all we can do because we are human. How can he, knowing how we are, expect us to do anything different than that?

'He' is a personification right there. How do you know that 'He' knows how we are, or what 'He' expects or dosent? Its all human perspective.
What you beleive of God or what you call it, God may be oblivious
for all anyone knows.
'He' is what people imagine, Nothing more. Who can know god for themselves, rather than through religion or heresay?

Your upbringing in this regard shapes your beleifs and your perspective.

Some beleive Jesus was a personification of God, but thats a given beleif, not nessarily mine. But who knows, I wasn't there.

[edit on 7-4-2010 by wayaboveitall]

I am going to post a couple facts about the bible it was voted on that right they sat around and voted on which books to keep and which ones to toss to the side. Kinda makes me wonder a little bit. Why not just pray to get the answer.


Another thing that has always bothered my is why dont they teach more about the early years of Jesus. And what about his wife Mary and his children. She was not a whore she was his wife.

Troll spotted. Job well done. The dude is pressing buttons on purpose... although I do enjoy the feedback that has been created in the process.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
I am going to post a couple facts about the bible

Ok then....

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
it was voted on that right they sat around and voted on which books to keep and which ones to toss to the side.

No it wasn't.
Which is why you didn't provide any evidence.

This is another of those silly legends floating 'round the 'net.
Completely untrue.

Hmmm...
So your 'couple of facts' turned out to be one wrong claim.



K.

Originally posted by wayaboveitall

'He' is a personification right there. How do you know that 'He' knows how we are, or what 'He' expects or dosent? Its all human perspective.
What you beleive of God or what you call it, God may be oblivious
for all anyone knows.
'He' is what people imagine, Nothing more. Who can know god for themselves, rather than through religion or heresay?

I understand what you're saying, and I agree.

Originally posted by wayaboveitall
Your upbringing in this regard shapes your beleifs and your perspective.

Again, I agree.

Originally posted by wayaboveitall
Some beleive Jesus was a personification of God, but thats a given beleif, not nessarily mine. But who knows, I wasn't there.

Again, I am with you.

It seems if Jesus/God really wanted to fore go all of the BS that has clouded his message the simplest solution would have been for Jesus himself to write the bible and for Jesus to actually establish a church and set actual guides lines for how to run it before he was crucified.

Simple logic really...

.....and perhaps instead of "ascending to heaven" he could have stayed here with us.

Jesus never wrote about him self because that is like honouring him self and that is not what he was about but to serve his father while witnesses kept record of his work through remembering parables and stories or writing them down.

God writing about God is not what he is about he needs witnesses who he pleases to choose the to dothe work for him. On Judgement day the Devil could always accuse God as the one playing games so he needs us humans to prove what they did or was right for God and what they saw with their own eyes and ears as a second witness on earth while we try and keep his promises and laws alive.