thoughts from a female

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
I hate to sound like an utter ass (and yet I do it all the time!), but I find I must disagree with this notion that women are somehow innately or genetically superior when it comes to understanding philosophical or spiritual truth than men. This just seems like so much sexist nonsense to me....

...This idea that women are somehow greater than men, spiritually, will hurt the women who assume their own innate perfection far more than it hurts men (and of course we don't want to hurt anyone).

Alex, if you meant my posts, I'm not saying women are innately superior. I'm saying that women did possess more of this suppressed information. Through the ages it was lost to them.
I'm saying that some women may have a small advantage in regaining these truths.

If we agree that at some point men and women were equal, how would we account for the subjugation of women in history? Women wee the healers and women bore the children. Women have a different connection to the earth than men do.

It's allright, I took my anti-Mystery religion pills today.

Well... Maybe One:

So, this family walks into the office of a talent agent, and the talent agent says, "So, what can you do?"

Well, they proceed to show him: The father and mother take off their outfits, underneath which are black capes and evil leather gear. The son is strapped to the table, and the daughter proceeds to stand over him and chant a prayer to Ba'al. The family dog runs all around the room, backwards, barking out a Metallica Song. The whole family then joins hands, and rings the room, chanting "Mystery Religions, Mystery Religions!"

Then, the father says, "And now, an impression of the movie "From Hell!"

The family proceeds to flop around on the floor like freshly caught fish for 10 minutes.

The talent agent, very much taken aback says, "That's some show... what do you call that?"

The father replies, "The Aristocrats!"

(Don't get it? Try looking at www.metafilter.com, right under the June 7th heading. Don't look if you're under 18)

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

Alex, if you meant my posts,

Nope, I wasn't talking about your posts

From DTOM
If we agree that at some point men and women were equal, how would we account for the subjugation of women in history?

One, I agree men and women overall are equal. Meaning men are stronger at points, and women stronger at others, which makes each equal.

Now as soon as someone decided that, lets say, physical strength is what people should be based off, and we can look back to the many societies that worshipped the physical form. Well ofcourse if the times and the people in charge say physically superior people are superior, then men must be superior to women.

Also just cause we agree, doesn't mean the morons incharge back in the day agreed .

Hello Donttreadonme...
not the village crone, the village grandmother. Huge difference. Best time of my life was spent on digs in the Yucatan and listening to what these grandmothers had to say after work was done and things put away. Brilliant philosophers, and they never read plato or aristotle, etc. damn smart people and they know what makes the Universe Tick.


The post about women being smarter / spiritual / etc;
as far as women having any more wisdom or knowledge, read some history. Things were not always as they are today, why did Europe murder its midwives? what could they possibly gain?...the advent of Christianity coincided with the demise of the mystery cults.....Patriach religious beliefs replaced what people believed for thousands of years before...the same as the Great Greek civilization replacing the agrarian cultures. Nobody is saying Women are infallable, or men are stupid compared to them. But to deny History flys in the face of the Truth. These events happened, and society has suffered because of it.

Toolmaker says:

not the village crone, the village grandmother. Huge difference.

Actually, I DID REALLY mean crone. As you can see, crone is not the withered old woman portrayed in the dictionary.

"... Crone is a term used to describe an ancient archetype, an aspect of the triple goddess (maiden/mother/crone), and the third phase of a woman's life. ...
A woman who calls herself crone is willing to acknowledge her age, wisdom, and power. Through conscious self-definition, she helps to reverse hundreds of years of oppression, degradation, and abuse aimed at old women. Although she may prefer to be called elder, grandmother, or wisewoman, she does not dismiss, disavow, or use pejoratively terms such as crone, witch, or hag.

...In ancient times, the crone was revered as an old woman who embodied wisdom and knew the truth of cyclic existence. Crones cared for the dying and were spiritual midwives at the end of life, the link in the cycle of death and rebirth. They were healers, teachers, way-showers, bearers of sacred power, knowers of mysteries, mediators between the world of spirit and the world of form. In pre-patriarchical societies, women's wisdom held healing power, and crone wisdom was the most potent of all. For nearly thirty thousand years, old women were strong, powerful sources of wisdom. Crones were respected and honored in their communities."
crone



[edit on 8-6-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

Why did Europe murder its midwives?

OK, well, here's my theory. You see, people got all het up believing that the Devil was active in their daily lives. People even began to believe that other people were in league with the devil, and that those other people were killing children and causing famines, and what not. Now, I don't condone the belief... to believe that meant that you had to give up your compassion for and faith in other human beings. But if you genuinely believed someone was a child murderer, what would you do? You would at least want them in prison so they could not harm anyone else. In the middle ages, things were more, well, Medieval. So, they burnt the people they believed were witches. Some of those people were midwives, most likely because midwives would probably be the ones to be accused of killing children (if your baby dies during childbirth, the midwife is a likely target of your wrath).

Was there a conspiracy of the "patriarchy" to "destroy women?" Not to my way of thinking. There was an unfortunate series of events that led to many women being killed. Was sexism a contributing factor to this death of innocent people? I have no doubt at all that it was. But believing that sexism exists and believing that there was some conspiracy to kill female religious power are two very different things.

Re: The Crone.

I hope that people won't misinterpret me when I say this: Generally speaking, Older People have more wisdom than younger people, because older people have been around longer. It doesn't matter whether they're women or men... although in sexist societies, where the women have traditionally been caregivers, healers, and housekeepers in the home, it's not surprising that they have more knowledge about those subjects... just as you would expect the older men in that society to have more knowledge about hunting, possibly planting crops (depending on who does it), making money, etc.

I can't believe that the all-Mighty (through the force of evolution, of course) made women and men innately different in terms of their ability to comprehend the spiritual. I can believe that old women in "traditional" cultures may have more knowledge about child care, medicine, etc., than older men, because this is what they've been doing their whole life (as I explained above).

But to believe that, for example, Zsa Zsa Gabor is a wise and spiritual person, while Ghandi was not, just because of their sexes, seems to me to be foolish. Woman or Man, your wisdom is based on your willingness to study and humble yourself, on how much you're paying attention, and how long you've been here.

I can say this with certainty, masons get way to defensive the instant someone inquires anything about masonry. if the people on this board represent the attitude taught by this fraternity it doesnt surprise me that the woman might suspect her husband. granted you guys come around(usually) and respond with a proper response, it is generally your instinct to accuse people of misinterpreting or slandering your organization. often those on the outside believe all the negative misinformation surrounding masonry after they are greeted with this attitude when seeking the truth. not really helping your cause. maybe they should add a meditation ritual & some aroma therapy that last part was a joke so dont freak out like you normally would.

Originally posted by metalmessiah
I can say this with certainty, masons get way to defensive the instant someone inquires anything about masonry. if the people on this board represent the attitude taught by this fraternity it doesnt surprise me that the woman might suspect her husband. granted you guys come around(usually) and respond with a proper response, it is generally your instinct to accuse people of misinterpreting or slandering your organization. often those on the outside believe all the negative misinformation surrounding masonry after they are greeted with this attitude when seeking the truth. not really helping your cause. maybe they should add a meditation ritual & some aroma therapy

that last part was a joke so dont freak out like you normally would.

I can say with certainty that you are off your rocker that was a joke too . Seriously though IMHO you are quite inaccurate in your claim, in fact we Masons have been more than helpful, tolerant and patient in regards to others and their inquiries and false accusations. Additionally we should be awarded extra brownie points for our unwaivering compassionate behavior in the face of so many false impersonators and cowans who have flocked to this site in droves with no other goal in mind but the disruption of positive constructive discussion and the slandering of Freemasonry. These arent accusations these are clear, clean cut facts, which there is evidence of all over this board.

Yes there are moments when we are a bit harsh in an intellectual, crafty, way however these moments are totally justified and are nothing compared to the negative treatment which we have received from some. Freemasonry is a very serious thing, a seriousness which an outsider cannot fully comprehend and understand. We are sworn to each other and bound to each other as well as the lodge not only for this life but for eternity, it is not taken lightly. Yes we flock to each others defense and to the defense of our craft for we are family, we don't call ourselves brothers for nothing.

Eloquently expressed K, the benefit of encouragement to those that seek Light certainly outweighs the occasional troll thrashing meted out by the Craft in this forum. The articulate way that yourself, ML, AK, L, JCM, TD, et al have contributed to ALL that have posted (yes, even the response to the trolls has been more than the typical sophomoric vitriol found elsewhere). This will of course continue much to the dismay of some (you know who you are), and the Craft will reap that which has been sown, more Light, and understanding.

Well Said MM....

As you can see, I am staying out of the things that are outside of the bounds of the topic.

I must say this though..... Why does someone always have to introduce race, sexism, politics, or religion into these conversations? All of those things just mentioned are personal to EVERYONE. Why start with this who or what is better than who or what. I say this... Who cares? We all live on this little pebble in the Cosmos called Earth. Now, Smudge asked a great question. I think that the answer is personal for everyone. But, why go into the areas of who is spiritually higher... My guess .... in the whole scheme of things anyways, our spitituality is but minute.

My esteemed friends,
Men are from mars, women are from venus.
We may be capable of the same spiritual knowledge, I'll agree with you there. But, can we also agree that men and women look at things differently. So, this spirituality would be different in men and women. Not better, but different.

I would like to state at this juncture, that although I am not a Mason and have openly expressed that I will not be joining in the near future, I am however interested in the same things as most of the Masons on this board, I can't speak for the other Masons not here. As such I have raised and been involved with existing topics about Masonry and related subjects. I have found those members that are Masons have acted with the highest standards of both tolerance and humour, contributing to conversations that would be simply immpossible to have without their input. Any suggestion that they are hostile or over defensive is simply, in my opinion, not true. Jees I've even had u2u's offering extra help in understanding the bits I don't get.
I will continue to debate points, I dont get, or don't agree with, and I hope that the Masons on this board will continue to contribute in the manor we have all been accustomed to.

Right back to the subject, I think it got a bit skewed there....

The feminine aspect as I understand it, is not about men and women as physical beings.

It is not about which sex is dominant.
This in fact is what happens when you deny your opposite ASPECT. You become lopsided.

Rather it is about understanding the specialties of the opposite sex and working on them within ourselves, to create a well rounded complete individual.
ERGO, if we need to study and talk with our opposites to acheive this, denying their place at the table kind of prohibits this.
The first step I believe to being genuinely able to incorporate your feminine aspect as a man is to accept that women are your equal. And I don't feel that any modern religious groups including Masonic fraternities PROMOTE this enough.
Note I said promote not that they don't allow it.
I believe Internal Alchemy is a term used.

Originally posted by Smudge
Right back to the subject, I think it got a bit skewed there....

The feminine aspect as I understand it, is not about men and women as physical beings.

[...]

ERGO, if we need to study and talk with our opposites to acheive this, denying their place at the table kind of prohibits this.

So, it's not about physically being men or physically being women, yet we need both physical men and women present in order to achieve it? I'm sorry, but I don't follow you. If, as you say, physical nature doesn't matter, wouldn't it be sufficient to have both men who embody the "feminine essence" and the "masculine essence?" Or, alternatively, wouldn't it be sufficient for each individual to look within him- or herself and observe the masculine a feminine energies?

"But," I hear you saying, "only women who are actually physically women can truly understand the female perspective" (odd, isn't it, how the opposite is never said about men, that only they can understand the masculine perspective. Such a comment would be, of course, sexism ) So we're back to it being about physical men and physical women, aren't we?

Listen, there are a couple of points we need to be clear on here:

i) Freemasonry does not now claim, nor has it ever claimed, to contain or impart the whole of human wisdom. On the contrary, Freemasonry, if it does anything in that field, points out a direction of study. This study may well include women... I guess it depends on individual understandings. Far be it for me to interpret how another should seek wisdom, except to say that Freemasonry alone is not enough... just as the study of ethics, aesthetics, or epistemology on its own is insufficient to find wisdom. Freemasonry happens to be a Fraternity. I have no problem with that, and do not feel it has in any way hampered my appreciation for women or for particular insights into women (I should mention at this juncture that I think the idea of "special knowledge" belonging to either women or men alone is hooey and sexism. Neither a woman nor a man has a priveleged perspective... a non-introspective person will always be ignorant, no matter what set of genitalia with which they happen to have been born.)

ii) I do not have any problem whatever with women joining Masonry, as long as they are in separate Lodges. I don't even mind co-Masonic bodies with women and men, as long as I am not forced to join. I don't believe in "holding anything back" from women, as long as they live by the same standards we do (belief in a supreme being, being of a mature age, etc.) As a matter of fact, I risk approbrium in saying this on the internet, but I have on a few different occasions asked around in order to find 7 women from my home city wishing to become Freemasons, so they could form their own Lodge (possibly through contacting co-Masonry or women's Masonry). Would it surprise you very much to find that I could never find 7 such women? Actually, most of them seemed quite satisfied with the pathways open to them as individuals (some of which, like Dianic Wicca, would not be open to me, as a man... I don't mind this in the slightest, as long as the women don't hate me!). There was a woman who expressed interest at first... a very good friend of mine, and probably one of the most basically decent people I know. But she told me, a little while later, that she'd thought about it, and decided it wasn't Masonry she wanted... she just wanted to join because she thought it was closed to her. Are you sure you're not so "pro-women-in-Masonry" because it seems forbidden?

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
But, can we also agree that men and women look at things differently. So, this spirituality would be different in men and women. Not better, but different.

100% accurate! I was wonering if anyone thought about this below... Actually from this topic, I just started thinking about it. It makes me wonder....

In very ancient times...

Black stood for men and White for women... Everyone is knows about the famous black and white floors of a masonic lodge

The V stood for feminine and the inverted V stood for masculine. Did you notice the masic logo? Looks familiar huh?

I have not explored this idea before... maybe will look into this a bit deeper.....

My salutes to all...

Its very interesting, the whole concept of anything dealing with the inherit differences between men and women and of course their equality.

My take on the whole thing is from a rather esoteric standpoint. In my opinion our physical forms do not matter, they are simply shells, thus the only thing that does matter and is the ultimate determining factor is our spirit, energy, or etheric self. The question which then arises and one which I at this stage in my life have accepted no concrete answer for, is do our spirits contain in them a masculine or femanine energy, and if so is that the determining factor, and is that factor consistent? Meaning does our energy remain masculine or femanine for eternity, or does it fluctuate? Modern science has proved that energy can and does have frequencies and charges to it, both positive and negative, masculine and femanine, yet is this the same for our spirit our soul?

Assuming that our spirits do indeed contain this energy and that they are equal as they are etheric opposites, what then is the supposed determining factor which would allow a being animated by such to tap into higher levels of enlightenment or spirituatlity while others are not?

Sorry if I just confused everyone.

[edit on 6/9/04 by Khonsu]

A.K this conversation, I now realise, is moving into an area that I cannot contribute to and had I thought about it at the start I would have realised it would always go this way.
I do not know enough about what is and what isn't FORBIDDEN, in Freemasonry, therefore it would be very foolish of me to try and keep pace with your well thought out responses.
I am operating under the, apparent, illusion that Freemasonry is weighted in the favour of the male of the spiecies. The only texts I've read have been written by men, the only Masons I've spoken with have also been Men, this does not mean however that there isn't a female aspect. I cannot however verify or disprove this so I must yield until I have evidence otherwise. (Not that that is the major goal in my life )
As for your rubishing of my " physical beings " argument, maybe I didn't word it properly.
The previous posters were discussing the stronger sex etc. My point was simply that it is the traits peculiar to women or men for that matter that those of the opposite sex would do well to attempt to understand. For their own benefit. Not all people start their journey and arrive immediately where you are with an understanding of all things feminine.

Khonshu, you didn't confuse me at all, very clear and perfectly to the point.
The answer, I believe, to your question is that it is impossible to complete the Jigsaw if you don't have all the pieces.
If everything in this Universe / existence, has an equal and opposite property, then any imbalance in one or other properties present, will result in a slide on the scale. Much like shifting the stereo sound over to one speaker. Twist the knob to center and the sound is great, as both speakers are designed as a pair.
Its this tweaking that we all need. But if you can't find the relevant button your sound is always gonna be a bit off.

Well, first of all, I'm sorry if I came off too strong with you. I'm afraid that training in debate combined with a powerful and sinful pridefulness on my part do not do me well

Anyway, reading you say that I "have arrived at an understanding of all things feminine" (paraphrase), I have two hopes: i) that you meant that sarcastically, and ii) that your sarcasm was without malice or rancour. I certainly have less understanding of "things feminine" than just about everyone I know. I generally proceed with my own philosophy that women are essentially the equals of men, that neither one has any particular special knowledge, and that both of them often overestimate their own knowledge and wisdom.

It reminds me of a conversation I once had with a freind of mine who was studying in Japan. (I come off as very arrogant in this story... why? Because I am!)

I said, "Stan," (not his real name) "I came to Japan the first few times and thought it was a wonderful place. I still think many people here are very very nice, particularly my host families. But when I left Canada, I thought that Canada was full of idiots, and Japan was not... now, I don't know."

"Alex," said 'Stan,' "I'm going to tell you something very important: There are idiots everywhere."

I've lived according to that aphorism ever since. There are idiots everywhere, and I may well be the biggest one... you never know. King Solomon (supposedly) said this in a much more flowery way as, "All wisdom is as foolishness to the Lord."

But I personally believe that no aspect of your life makes you immune to being an idiot, and no aspect of your life makes you immune to being incredibly wise, incredibly close to God, or even a prophet of a kind. Thus, I cannot believe that women have any special propensity for this, just as I cannot believe that men have any special propensity for this. I do believe that the process of creation in nature can be thought of as involving two distinct essences, which for ease of communication (or perhaps through laziness) we have described as "male" and "female." But to me, to assume that these "male and female" forces are male and female in the way that Gentlemen and Ladies are male and female is as preposterous as assuming that God is female as a woman is female or male as a man is male.