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Catholic Parishioners Clash Over Gay Rights

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posted on May, 31 2004 @ 02:16 PM
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CHICAGO Parishioners who wore rainbow-colored sashes to Mass in support of gays and lesbians were denied communion (search) in Chicago, while laymen in Minnesota tried to prevent gay Roman Catholics from getting the sacrament.

Priests at Holy Name Cathedral (search) in Chicago refused to give the Eucharist to about 10 people wearing the sashes at Sunday Mass. One priest shook each person's hand; another made the sign of the cross on their foreheads.

"The priest told me you cannot receive communion if you're wearing a sash, as per the Cardinal's direction," said James Luxton, a Chicago member of the Rainbow Sash Movement (search), an organization of Catholic gay-rights supporters with chapters around the country.

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The Catholic church is in danger of alienating parishoners to the point where they will leave the church, IMO.

See here for the story:

Communion

Ironic, given what the word communion implies.







posted on May, 31 2004 @ 02:24 PM
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Ironic in the "put your head in your hands and moan 'noooooooo'" sense of the word.



A Vatican doctrinal decree last year directed at Catholic politicians said a well-formed conscience forbids support for any law that contradicts "fundamental" morality, with abortion listed first among relevant issues. A second Vatican statement said it is "gravely immoral" not to oppose legalization of same-sex unions.


"Fundamental morality"? By whose measure? This is exactly the kind of small-minded, exclusionist, ignorant, petty, outdated, right-wing, unevolved mindless crap that gives Catholics a (well-deserved) bad name.

I really cannot express how angry I am at this story. I can only hope that my outrage is repeated in the hearts and minds of all decent people, and that we can finally drag our society out from under the shadow of a crumbling religious edifice.

Isn't it about time we all grew the hell up?

Thanks for the link, jsobecky.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 02:28 PM
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And people gets angry when I said; I don't believe on any religious organizations, What are they blind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
communion is just another self made christian myth.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 08:46 PM
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Catholics have always been exclusionists. What's the big hang up?

If that's the way they want to be, then fine. I don't know why people try to prove some point by saying that they are denied communion. I understand the distaste for their views, as I am not a Catholic anymore, but they have the choice to leave should they want to, and the Church has the right to include or disallow any they choose.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 09:15 PM
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The protestant leadership has got to be loving this. I can see the ad campaign now - "We won't ask and we won't tell"

Seems to me that the Vatican is woefully unprepared for the backlash this will produce. But in the end it's the Pope's choice, let's see if they still feel the same way after they have to close a few more churches.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 09:21 PM
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It's another example of another failed religious organization. Treating one human being or class of human beings as less worthy, or less loved and accepted by their God.

Of course they have the right to exclude whomever they want. It seems to me that churches should work toward inclusion of all of God's children instead of exclusion. But that is logic, which has no place in organized religon (BOLD added to stave off conclusion-jumping).




posted on May, 31 2004 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Of course they have the right to exclude whomever they want. It seems to me that churches should work toward inclusion of all of God's children instead of exclusion. But that is logic, which has no place in organized religon (BOLD added to stave off conclusion-jumping).



So who should they include? All people, no matter what they do? No matter how far they go against their basic tenants?

Come on. I am all about inclusion should the person choose to leave behind (or try) the things that go against God. But how can they possibly include those who go against God and don't care and choose to continue to.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 10:38 PM
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The problem is that gays have done nothing 'against God'. Once again, it flies in the face of logic.




posted on May, 31 2004 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
The problem is that gays have done nothing 'against God'. Once again, it flies in the face of logic.



Catholics feel that homosexuality IS against God. They could be right, or they could be wrong, but since none of us really know, probablibity says that both you and they have an equal chance at being correct.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 10:56 PM
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it's really ironic that they say "unconditional love for all" when they turn their face the other way



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 11:57 PM
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This makes me so angry!!!!!!! I am a Catholic and I am so sick of the hypocrysy of the Church on the subject of gay rights. I live in Phoenix where we have a retired Bishop, still performing pastoral functions, and living in a $600,000 home (Church provided) who has been found guilty of leving the scene of a fatal accident. Not to mention, that he covered up many, many, many instances of abuse.
Yet, HE can not only receive communion but can serve Mass and consecrete the Holy Communion.
Frankly, this whole thing has sickened me so much, that I haven't gone to Church in months. I resigned as a Lector and have really grave personal doubts.
Personal issues aside, I think the Church is EXTREMELY misguided on this and other issues.
Ok, ok, I know I'll be told to find another church or to just quit going. That's an option, of course. But, I'm damn mad at the church and don't like what's going on.
Fini. Rant Over.
Joey



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 02:36 AM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
They could be right, or they could be wrong, but since none of us really know, probablibity says that both you and they have an equal chance at being correct.


I'd dispute your use of the word "equal". Catholicism is based on many principles, including inclusionism and forgiveness, which are violated by the prejuidice against homosexuality. If we accept Catholicism as a true representation of God's word - which I don't, but there you go - then homophobia is internally inconsistent. If Catholicism isn't a true representation of God's word, then their homophobia - close-minded, ignorant and prejuidiced as it is - still contravenes their own standards.

I'll admit, there's an outside chance that Catholics - and other Christians who condemn homosexuality - are correct. But if they are, then it's just one more reason we should turn our backs on the ignorance of religion.

Nitpicking, moi?

I find it curious that no Catholics have stepped up to defend this sickening story. Or could it be that even they can recognise an indefensible position?



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 03:27 AM
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Well Ray Flynn, former Mayor of Boston, former Ambassador to the Vatican, staunch Catholic, was on Fox News last night giving it his best shot, which was a statement that gays are trying to use the church to politicize their agenda.

Whatever.

Joey, I understand very much how you feel.

I was raised a Catholic, attended parochial schools for the first six years of my education, and learned work and study ethics that I could never have learned in a public school. Some of the morals I live by today came from that period, and I'm not talking about gay rights, I'm talking about charity, honesty, responsibility. So although I practice no organized religion, many catholic virtues stuck with me to this day.

We were never taught exclusion.




posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 03:40 AM
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I am a christian myself and these reports make me angry as well.
They do not only contribute to the thought that being gay is a choice or lifestyle instead of a way of being born, they also contribute to the prejudice that christians and in this case catholics have double morals and are ignorant.

Of course God does not condemn a way of being born.
As for bringing your desire into practise, I don't know wether God would approve this. I am glad I am not gay myself, I will never have to figure this out for my life.
It seems hard to understand that Gods gift of relationship and sex is just for those lucky enough to be born in a sexually "normal" way.

Most christians are not like this though, and it's too bad that the christian religion is degraded by a bunch of ignorant hypocrits like this.
You can allready see the replies in this thread, directed at christianity and religion in general, instead of the ones that are truly making the mistakes.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 03:59 AM
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Thanks jsobecky. Your reply made me feel understood. We were taught good honest virtues and had superior educations in the parochial schools. The majority of the morals and work habits I have today come from the Catholic background. That's why seeing this all unfold is so painful.

My husband, who remembers the consternation after Vat II, believes that this is just another swing of the pendumlum..this time to the right. He thinks that, when a new Pope takes over, things might get somewhat less unsettled. It seems, at the moment, that the conservative branch of the Church has taken over.


Ah well, we do our best. You are right. We were never taught exclusion per se. We were taught excellence, good morals, charity, and a world outlook. I came of age when it was the Catholics marching alongside the African-Americans and Jews in the civil rights marches. For me, I've always associated Catholicism with the outreach for human rights.

Anyway, Thanks mucho



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 06:56 AM
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Who are this people? that preach on the name of God? Who in this world is clean enought to tell others in the name of God how to behave, what their preferences should be? No body!!! From the cleargy to the Pope they all unclean to judge.

Get over it, Gays and lesbian are here already and always has been, and they are here to stay.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 07:10 AM
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I'm with KrazyJethro on this one. Granted it's silly to deny any parishioners, but that's the point of dogma. It tends to be dogmatic.

I've got no problem with Catholic devotees or the teachings of the church or the fundamentalism of the Pope.

But I laugh my butt off at people that want to change things that tend to exclude them from the inside.

Catholicsm is simple on many social issues. Gay? Hell. Use a condom? Hell. Abortion? Hell. But you can ask for sincere forgiveness and you're fine...if sincere.

No, wearing a gay rights ribbon does not make you a sincere Catholic. It makes you an activist. Which is fine with me too. Some people like banging their head against a wall.

Like Log Cabin Republicans or the adamantly pro-choice Bush voters. Whatever.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 09:52 AM
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Thanks Rant. You filled in all the gaps I didn't have time to lay down (I threw a nice BBQ).

I want to clearify something though. Homophobia is not people who think homosexuality is wrong. Nor are they "narrowminded" just because you disagree.

Thinking what someone does is wrong is not a condemnation of the person.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 10:14 AM
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Let me first explain my views on homosexuality... I'm accepting of gay people, I don't hate anyone, especially merely because they like the same gender. I just don't agree with homosexuality, the act itself, though it doesn't make me think any less of gay people. I'm Christian, and by that account I follow Christ's teachings, and he taught to love everyone and be accepting of everyone, which I try my best to do.

I think a lot of times the Church is misguided in the way it goes about following Christianity, because yes, Jesus told us to love everyone, and not to exclude anyone. But, people also must understand that this is the Church. The Church is stubborn and everyone knows this. Whether or not you like the Church, or even agree with Christianity, you have to understand the Church's point of view (whether its right or wrong, that's up for debate).

So, with that said, here's what I think.

Ok fine, you're a gay Catholic, why must you make such a big deal of it? Gays talk so much about equality and being treated the same as everyone else, so why are these people going around wearing rainbow sashes? That's a blatant symbol saying "hey, look at me, I'm gay!" How can gays expect people to treat them equally when they blatantly separate themselves from others?

I mean I'm all about individuality, and definitely not a proponent of conformity, but come on. This is Church. The Church does not agree with homosexuality. So why purposely wear something you know the Church doesn't agree with, to make you stand out? It's like they're trying to say, "Hey look, they're not treating me equal because I'm gay. But I purposefully wore this thing just to prove a point." It's foolish... They know the Church's stance on gays, even if they are Catholic, why just bring this upon themselves? To point out how evil the Church is? Come on... I can see how people would say they're using (exploiting) the Church to further their political agenda...


Rainbow Sash Movement spokesman Joe Murray was among those denied communion in Chicago. He said members wearing the sashes should be seen no differently than a uniformed police officer or Boy Scout seeking communion.

Yeah, except Boy Scouts and police officers are not morally wrong in the Church's eyes. It's nothing alike. What, now the gay community has a uniform? I don't see straight people walking around in uniform. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if they're trying to be accepted equally, they shouldn't make themselves stand out in a blatant attempt to show people (mainly the Church) how "wrong" they are.

When I asked my friends about this, one of them said some people just want to be accepted for their individuality, it's like telling someone with a mohawk to cut their hair if they want to be accepted. But this isn't like wearing a mohawk. People who wear mohawks want to be different, they're doing it so they aren't accepted; they must realize that people are going to look at them differently, but they wear mohawks anyway.. Gays want to be equal. So making themselves stand out in this manner is not helping the situation at all.

If my opinions offend anyone, I apologize. But those are the opinions I have.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 10:28 AM
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Faisca, you didn't offend me. In fact, I think you hit the nail on the head. Activists seem to lack actual persecution, so in order to create said persecution they go out of their way to make sure they get the raw end of the deal they put themselves in.

Case in point. The girl who went to VMI. She only wanted to break up the fine tradition they had of a male environment, one which I agreed with. Then when she won, she got fat over the summer and failed out.



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