Meditation, awarness and alcohol

reply to post by Novise

So it has to be something else. Once you have self-awareness you should not be a slave to it. You should forget it for a while, then come back to it. Just makes you more aware of it. But that's the game anyway. If we were meant to obsess over ultimate reality and know the full truth, we would not be here.

I agree, we should never obsess over anything especially spirituality and growth. When we first start to awaken though its like we are given access to a whole new world that we didnt even know existed. Initially its very hard NOT to obsess over these things, take astral travel or newly gained psychic awarness...you try not obsessing over those things when they initially happen to you.....they are amazing...you want to know more, lots lots more and before you know it this takes over your life. These things that come with awakening are SO different from our "closed off/normal existance" who doesnt initially obsess?? I know I did. However you are right, to just accept and observe is the way to deal with these things. Awarness is much more understood if its observed and not obsessed about.

yes forget about it, then come back to it when you feel its right to do so.

I know that by being here it means I can not know the whole truth, otherwise I would learn nothing, I cant play the game if I know all the answers so to speak , but I just feel that now alcohol in excess is stopping me from gaining answers I should be finding.

reply to post by Doc Velocity

You can dress it up any way you want, and you can present awards for the "the most original" alcoholic concoction, but it's all been done before. There's nothing new under the sun, as they say.

Yeah you can definitely argue that it's all been done before but people are always pushing the envelope and I think thats evidence of more open minds and utilizing what they have around them(in every sense). So I had this drink the other night that combined, honey vodka, black plum, jalepeno(it wasn't a spicy drink), basil, and angostura bitters. The basil wasn't even in the drink, but as a garnish added a hit of basil on the nose which actually complemented the other flavors. The drink was complex, interesting, and quite delicious. You gotta admit, thats pretty good attention to detail. It takes a sensitive palette and a creative mind to make that kind of a combo work.....

And, as far as awareness goes, if the kids today are drinking "complex and subtle" alcoholic potions to increase their awareness, it aint working. I know and interact with lots of kids, from teens to young adults, who are less aware of everything in the world today — it's like they live in their own bubbles of reality, spoon-fed to them by one marketing campaign or another, but they have no awareness of survival skills, of basic technological skills, nor of their own spirituality.

Drinking complex cocktails may not increase your awareness, but it's evidence that awareness of details even down to something as specific as a cocktail is flourishing. I know I know, I can only speak for my city, and maybe most other big american cities, but I have seen the trend change. And true, it's generally not 21 year olds who take drinking seriously(enough with the red bull guys), but it would be great to see that change, and I think it is...
I think maybe you're just pessimistic. People know what they need to know to survive, what kind of survival skills should they have? I think kids today could operate technology better than and old person. Ever watch grannie try and send a text message? I think teens to young adults kind of naturally live in their own world, there's a few doc velocities out there who never really grow out of that stage, but it's perfectly normal when you're young to obsess about it a little. Cut the kids some slack, the fact that more young people than ever have been making so much noise politically should show that kids are getting more aware and involved. I think younger and upcoming generations have their specific problems, but humans may very well go forward.....


I wonder how many revolutions started in the pubs...

When I say spirituality, I'm not talking about religion, necessarily. Rather, I mean they have no sense of the miraculous, no sense of wonder, no complex (or even simple) awareness of the Circle of Life. It's like they're living in the perpetual NOW of self-gratification.

Of course they are, they're kids. I don't think people have lost their sense of wonder and what not, it's more like we've all been desensitized. People these days have experienced so many ideas and emotions just from stuff like movies, that one could argue their life experience is far beyond their years. Even if it's only simulated life experience. Either way people have seen more scenarios played out before their eyes these days then ever before.
I think that has an effect on the entire world. How many people have come out of a movie just thinking, "wow, that was mind blowing.."...everyone has said that at one time or another. We're not getting dumber, I think we're just getting bored....LOL....everyone thinks they've seen it all, we all just want a new experience. Because everyone knows it's experience that creates awareness and fuels curiosity. And that's what people want....awareness. sometimes a few good drinks might be part of the experience, sometimes not. For most experiences, take first hand, but simulated experience can be helpful too. In fact, simulated experience can help you make informed decisions on actual experience.

So, if you think your "complex and subtle" alcoholic potions are contributing to the overall "awareness" of your customers, you're in La-La Land. You may as well be serving Robitussin. The ingestion of poisons is not the path to self-awareness and enlightenment.

I don't think they are contributing, I think they are evidence of the overall awareness of my guests, not customers. People appreciate it when you make things from scratch, or open their eyes to something they haven't had...isn't that the wonder you thought they were lacking? Drinks aren't making the public more aware, but they are themselves making me more aware of the publics awareness....get it?

I think this thread has already hit on the ingestion of..."poison" to reach enlightenment, in many cultures, and schools of thought since ever since.

I'm sure you don't want to hear that, being a purveyor of poison for your meager income, but it's a fact.

I'm not sure what you mean by this but it certainly comes off as petty....not good for a guy preaching awareness, and spirituality.

Look bro, people meet in bars, fall in love in them, I've seen people get married in them!! They take clients out to bars, they celebrate in them, they basically use bars for everything imaginable. People always have, even when it was outlawed. Sure drinking in excess can be bad, but I've also already posted a link to health benefits of alcohol. And maybe there will come a day when people just have no use for bars and booze, but it's still here....changing, like everything else, but hangin around. Becoming more refined, more respected, by both patrons and critics I'd hope.

Rockin' thread, guys. Hope you don't mind me throwin' in my .02 three pages in.

It seems to me that there are two different discussions going on here, and while I can't say I agree with them all, everyone is making some awesome points. While alcohol is in fact a poison, and it's true that it's primary function is to slow the processes of your nervous system, that by no means eliminates it's usefulness as a tool in the cultivation of Awareness. Like Liquid said, as long as there's been human consciousness, there's been the quest to find ways to alter and transcend it. While the use of more body friendly substances like cannabis and various types of mushrooms is more widely known, deadly nightshade and the poisonous mescal bean have also been used toward the same end, and many others that fail to come to mind at the moment.

That being said, it's fallacious in the extreme to equate the ingestion of substances of any kind with the cultivation of Awareness. Drugs/substances/entheogens are tools for the cultivation of Awareness, and just like any tool, they can be used or mis-used for a variety of purposes. For example: Hammers don't build houses. Skilled tradespersons equipped with hammers build houses. Those same persons could use those same hammers to destroy the very houses they labored to build; If a non-skilled tradesperson should walk down to the hardware store and buy a hammer to be used for the purpose of auto-erotic self-mutilation, that behavior should not be confused for the construction of living space.

I also practice meditation, and I find no conflict between alcohol consumption and my personal spiritual practices. I drink seldomly, and when I do, I get loaded on straight whiskey and use it as an opportunity to exercise Awareness, and I've found that while doing so, I'm able to enjoy my state of extreme intoxication without slurring, staggering, swaying or the embarassing enactment of any subconscious complexes for an audience of gathered revelers to witness. I find it quite satisfactory, but as they say, to each his own.

(Edited for grammar.)

[edit on 2-3-2010 by No_man4]

reply to post by Mr Green


Oh definetly, if it is effecting a specific practice or discipline perhaps, I'd cut out the few drinks on the weekend as well.

I was thinking entirely on awareness. And when it comes to awareness, knowing what it is to be drunk only makes you more appreciative and aware of being sober.

I will drink anything my friends do, BUT I really only go for beer. It's really hard for things to go horribly wrong if all you are drinking is beer (unless you have 2 people and a keg to put you in a kegstand, lol) plus the hangovers are easily dealt with. Ben Franklin said beer was proof God loves us, he didn't say anything about liquor or wine! But I know, he probably liked those too. That's just my attitude towards it.

But my spiritual practices are really based in dreaming, and that's not as hardcore as Astral projecting and psychic practices. But it is unpredictable and usually it's not your choice what particular morning you will wake up and be mind-blown. If dreaming as a practice, sobriety is preferred, but I really can't handle it so much in that way anymore, because you still have to go to work and deal with society the next day.

So at times I find myself slowing my spiritual practices down by necessity, only to be able to fit into society and put up with it. A sort of numbing, even a dumbing down, I don't mind saying that. People can really get on my nerves the more and more aware I become of harmonic existence, pure experience, bliss, etc. With all their annoying, lack of creativity, materialism, one-upmanship, etc. You are on cloud nine and they can bring you down from it in seconds. I am sure that there have been times I purposely lowered my energy level with beer and distractions like video games... but really not making excuses 99% of the time it's just that I like to drink lol.

Gday,

Down here in oz we have a big drinking culture that works to TPTB advatage. I feel Alcohol is legal even though medically it is much more toxic than herbal alternatives mainly due to the apathetic and loss of spiritual connnection that clouds the drinker for the next week, rather than the simple sickness the next day. As an ex alcoholic i have experienced this many times. I was bound to remain an athiest praising science untill I sobered up completly and simple saw reality differently and formed the subsequent neuronal synapses. The drinking culture dumbs down the topics of conversation even further than the media rather than expanding the mind like some illegal alternatives. I feel swapping alcohol for marijuana would reduce violence and health problems but rapidly increase conspiracy popularity so it will not happen.

Originally posted by Novise

The bartender is spot on about how people get all holier than though that don't drink (and make a big deal about that fact). It shows up in this thread already, already I see a few pedestals in the room waiting to be stood on again.

One could just as easily say that those who have a stake in drinking (ie enjoy it, or are involved with alcohol themselves) may not be the most objective sources. Besides, I personally do not think everyone saying alcohol is not conducive to greater awareness is saying "drinking is bad." It is just saying that it is not conducive to greater awareness.

Originally posted by Novise
So it has to be something else. Once you have self-awareness you should not be a slave to it. You should forget it for a while, then come back to it. Just makes you more aware of it. But that's the game anyway. If we were meant to obsess over ultimate reality and know the full truth, we would not be here.

Awareness has nothing to do with being "obsessed with ultimate reality." Only the thinking or talking mind obsesses. It is often called the "ego" in spiritual parlance. The ego has no awareness. It simply comments on what the awareness perceives. The "awakened" or "conscious" awareness is aware that the ego or thinking mind is just a running commentary. The unawakened awareness believes it IS the thinking mind, rather than the observer of it. Those who believe they are that voice, may focus much of the awareness on it, so much so, that they walk into physical things in their path, as they lose awareness of the world around them. Higher awareness just means awareness that is able to take in more than just the babbling of the ego. It can be aware of that too, but it neednt get lost in it.

The reason all those things you say psychologically are true are true, is because the awareness itself is disabled by alcohol, it is dampened, less able to be self aware, or aware of the thinking mind. And the ego babbles on, not really talking with others, but talking AT them. It seeks pleasurable inputs, music, food, dance, sex, etc., and it also seeks to deny those inputs that are unpleasant. (Shyness, pain, other peoples opinions, etc.) When it cannot deny unpleasant inputs, it has a temper tantrum, anger.

Awareness doesnt discriminate pleasant/unpleasant. It is aware of them both. It doesnt "seek" ultimate truth or reality, because that would mean it had judged what it was experiencing as "less" desirable. Awareness is non judgmental. The ego is the judge. Alcohol strengthens the judge, and dulls the awareness.

I certainly would not tell someone not to drink, I am not afraid to have a glass of wine or a beer, or a cocktail, but I dont consume it in amounts that dulls my awareness significantly, either. And I dont pretend that my drinking even small amounts has any positive effect on my awareness. It doesnt. No one says you have to abstain from all things enjoyable to maintain your awareness, but if you are aware to a certain degree, you find it unpleasant for the awareness to be drugged unconscious.

Originally posted by Novise

So at times I find myself slowing my spiritual practices down by necessity, only to be able to fit into society and put up with it. A sort of numbing, even a dumbing down, I don't mind saying that. People can really get on my nerves the more and more aware I become of harmonic existence, pure experience, bliss, etc. With all their annoying, lack of creativity, materialism, one-upmanship, etc. You are on cloud nine and they can bring you down from it in seconds.

Interesting. If the "light" of enlightenment cant stand in the truth of "what is" without darkening, can it really be light? If awareness requires denial to exist, can it really be awareness? If harmonic bliss gets angry in the presence of others, is it really bliss?

The purpose of greater awareness isnt to escape "what is." It isnt to remove itself from all possibly upsetting elements. It is more like being able to stand in any situation and not be moved by the upset completely, not to yourself be transformed into "upset." Not by denial of the upset, but by being aware of and experiencing even that. The awareness can be aware of the minds unhappiness, or the minds sadness without itself BEING sad or unhappy. Only the mind can BE sad, or unhappy, or angry, and to the degree you are aware, you are not mistaken into believing that "you" are your thinking mind.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by Novise

So at times I find myself slowing my spiritual practices down by necessity, only to be able to fit into society and put up with it. A sort of numbing, even a dumbing down, I don't mind saying that. People can really get on my nerves the more and more aware I become of harmonic existence, pure experience, bliss, etc. With all their annoying, lack of creativity, materialism, one-upmanship, etc. You are on cloud nine and they can bring you down from it in seconds.

Interesting. If the "light" of enlightenment cant stand in the truth of "what is" without darkening, can it really be light? If awareness requires denial to exist, can it really be awareness? If harmonic bliss gets angry in the presence of others, is it really bliss?

The purpose of greater awareness isnt to escape "what is." It isnt to remove itself from all possibly upsetting elements. It is more like being able to stand in any situation and not be moved by the upset completely, not to yourself be transformed into "upset." Not by denial of the upset, but by being aware of and experiencing even that. The awareness can be aware of the minds unhappiness, or the minds sadness without itself BEING sad or unhappy. Only the mind can BE sad, or unhappy, or angry, and to the degree you are aware, you are not mistaken into believing that "you" are your thinking mind.

Yes, but I'm not just protecting myself here. I'm getting mad at the whole idea. Live and let live would work wonders in these situations, and I know I'm not the only one these types interact with. So I get angry in a sort of protective way, while I know deep down it's not really going to hurt me, I know the pain that these situations will cause others. The human part of me, the social side says "You gotta correct that, put them in their place," then the inaction side, the nonviolent overrides it saying just let it be. All this pain is really starting to seem unnecessary to me, and it gets my heartrate up.

I don't know what that energy is, but when you have it, that experiential force... It just magnifies evil acts experientially. I almost hate the petty evil acts more than the effective ones, I've never wondered why till now. But I suppose you imagine evil is sometimes driven to existence, when you see some punk (young or old) plain as day who is well fed, with wealth and social status to spare, has no reason to be spreading negativity, it just makes my blood boil.

These are deep subjects and I might not explain it perfectly, but I try to just converse on it. You've given me things to think about, but somehow I feel if I just surrender to life, and people, then I give it and them no value and I'm just ignoring and dismissing.

So they make me angry, but I don't dismiss them as non-lessons, non-factors. But yes, they make me angry, they throw me off.

For myself I can say only that alcohol and meditation do not mix well. That is not to say that it won't for others. If I have had even half pint of Terminator, I won't be meditating, it's that simple. I have a very hard time tameing my mind when under the effects of alcohol, and I have yet to experience any energy sensations whatsoever while under the influence.

Some people, however, do use mind altering inducing drugs to attain higher states. And yes, some use alcohol. I know of at least three people that claim they get great results meditating when they are hungover, they also claim it makes it easier for them to get out. But this is not he case for me.

Now, again, speaking only for myself, I can also add that it appears to me that my alcohol tolerance varies depending on how much I have meditated, and what type of meditation I was doing within a day or two of having a few drinks.



[edit on 3-3-2010 by aravoth]

reply to post by aravoth


I have some of my best introspective moments while hungover. Alcohol always has a possiblity of inducing euphoria also. Euphoria approached maturely seems to be very spiritual to me. And this does occur differently depending on who is doing it. As long as you can stay out of trouble and stay coherent, you can effect people profoundly and positively in even the loudest party environments. So we say, people forget things but the subconcious remembers. To some around here the subconcious is perfect and never forgets anything. It's nothing short of a miracle that I have stayed out of trouble in my drinking adventures. If my friends came to ATS, they would laugh very hard, it's so true.

It messes with your brainwaves, the things that help us dream, astral project, live mindfully. It knocks them out from time to time, so you can approach from a new baseline. I make it sound really better than what it is, but a clean slate is sometimes needed and desired. Get caught up in a meditational or psychic lifestyle and you begin making new changes based on that perspective. Sometimes it's good to hit reset, and re-evaluate. In terms of all that we have a long time to figure it out.

Originally posted by Novise

All this pain is really starting to seem unnecessary to me, and it gets my heartrate up.

While your intentions, to protect the feelings of others, is noble, I have to wonder if your methods would be effective? How often has it worked to lash out with anger at someone, and actually effect a lasting change in their behavior? Dont the people being lashed out at react just as defensively, though perhaps not for the sake of others but their own?

A lot of the pain we experience IS unnecessary pain. But this world will always have some pain. As long as we are in this body, we are subject to the experience of both pain, and pleasure. You know that. So I am guessing you are just most annoyed with the excess, or unnecessary pain. But that pain I would say you have to consider who inflicts it, if you really want to stop it at its source.

For instance if someone walked up to me and said, "Illusions, you are a purple freakin idiot. You are the purplest @#^%$ I have ever known." I would probably be hurt for a moment. Because I would know I was being attacked. However what I couldnt do is later beat myself up or ruminate over for long periods of time, the accusations of my "purpleness." I know I am not purple. A little pinkish, maybe, but purple? No, not really.

Only a small portion of the pain we feel when people say things that hurt us is actually caused by the attacker. Most of the pain we feel is self inflicted, after the fact, by our own minds as it weaves endless tales about the incident.

From Meditations by Marcus Aurelius;

"Put from you the belief that 'I have been wronged' and with it will go the feeling. Reject your own sense of injury, and the injury itself disappears."

If you really are concerned that "others" feel less pain, it seems to me that you could model for them the skill of not thrashing oneself in ones own mind. If you could do that, you would not only spare them excess pain from that one particular incident, but show them a tool they could use in many situations, with or without your presence.

Originally posted by Novise
but somehow I feel if I just surrender to life, and people, then I give it and them no value and I'm just ignoring and dismissing.

If you were "surrendering" to life and people, you would be right. But I am not sure surrender is how I would describe a smoother path. Accepting is a word I like better. Surrender is giving up of yourself for other. That hardly seems fair, or balanced. Accepting has room for you both. "I accept you are being negative, and I accept that that is pissing me off." Awareness coupled with acceptance tends to allow you to feel the feeling of pissed offness without becoming it. You are not ignoring anything. Awareness by definition ignores nothing.

Originally posted by Novise
But yes, they make me angry, they throw me off.

And I would suggest that they dont throw you off. Its your own struggle that throws your balance off. Your struggle with "what is." What they are, what you are, and what is in general. Maybe as a suggestion, sometime as a lark, practice awareness of negativity in yourself and others without struggling against it. No motive. Just be aware of it and watch what it does.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Then I have to go very deep with this, into accepting every single facet. I don't just live for the moment, but there must be some respect for those in the past, some heed, some nod, and some concern for those in the future.

Let me tell you what I saw today. An elderly couple parked at a handicapped spot at an oil change place. I was baffled at their respect for eachother, the man walked around the car to meet her. He opened the door into the store for her too. They held hands. I smiled at their harmony.

5 minutes later they walk out the door of the shop and don't get in the car. They walk 300 yards over to a restaurant. They never speak a word. Total peace. But they parked in a handicapped spot after being able to walk farther than the average american.

Humor is everywhere and while I appreciate it, I believe that such a level of awareness would render me useless. I'd be laughing all the time. Believe me, when I looked over at the spot and saw that it was handicapped after they had made the trek across the road even, I burst into laughter.

So if I get angry, am I not in tune with what people want me to be?

If I don't get angry, I ignore them, and now they need to make someone else angry.

If something doesn't fill these pathetic holes, something else will.

And I don't mean to give you a hard time, but I guess I'm in the mood to learn.

Originally posted by Novise

So if I get angry, am I not in tune with what people want me to be?

If I don't get angry, I ignore them, and now they need to make someone else angry.

Well, I have a few questions. First of all, who is this "I" you speak of when you refer to yourself? Are you that which gets angry, or that that can watch with amusement or nonchalance?

If you are the "I" that watches without anger, then would you assume that there was anything to be angry about? That there was an "anger" hole needing to be filled by someone, and if not you, someone else? Or would you just watch the whole thing, amused or neutral?

If you are the "I" who gets angry, that is the ego, or thinking mind. Which is indeed a very ego self centric thing. Of course it would assume that the whole thing played out for "it" to see and react to. And of course it would judge the situation, first as being charming then as being anger provoking. And of course it would make the assumption that anger is the RIGHT reaction, and of course it would make the assumption that it must be the primary center around all occurrences happen, and so of course it would assume "it" should react to "save" or "spare" others the injustice of having to be the center of the universe and get angry over the occurrence too. Not to mention the ego really doesnt like the idea of NOT being the center upon which all events hinge. It also likes the aggrandizement of being the savior of lesser souls.

So, I guess it would really matter who you are. Are you the egoic mind? Or the awareness?

Originally posted by Novise
If something doesn't fill these pathetic holes, something else will.

Maybe, the awareness would watch to find out what happened next. Maybe there is no hole to fill. Perhaps no one else will need that spot until the older couple is done. Maybe no one else will get angry and the day will unfold as harmoniously as the older couple's relationship.

Maybe that which sees the hole is that which creates a hole. Perhaps no harm is done until harm is noticed, like Schrodinger's cat, perhaps the situation is neither this nor that till someone makes it so, by viewing it as such.

Originally posted by Novise
And I don't mean to give you a hard time, but I guess I'm in the mood to learn.

And thats ok, I dont feel like you are giving me a hard time. I majored in philosophy because I like to look closely at issues. And no philosopher worth the title thinks they are absolutely "right." Socrates, a very good philosopher, said what made him wise was that he alone knew he didnt know. I dont think these issues are something to hear anothers opinion of, and just absorb the opinion of the other. I think these issues are best dealt with by exploring them, and then thinking them through on your own.

A good spiritual or philosophic discussion shouldnt end in your blind acceptance of anothers point of view, it should be fuel for your own thinking about the issue, and nothing more.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by Novise

So if I get angry, am I not in tune with what people want me to be?

If I don't get angry, I ignore them, and now they need to make someone else angry.

Well, I have a few questions. First of all, who is this "I" you speak of when you refer to yourself? Are you that which gets angry, or that that can watch with amusement or nonchalance?

If you are the "I" that watches without anger, then would you assume that there was anything to be angry about? That there was an "anger" hole needing to be filled by someone, and if not you, someone else? Or would you just watch the whole thing, amused or neutral?

If you are the "I" who gets angry, that is the ego, or thinking mind. Which is indeed a very ego self centric thing. Of course it would assume that the whole thing played out for "it" to see and react to. And of course it would judge the situation, first as being charming then as being anger provoking. And of course it would make the assumption that anger is the RIGHT reaction, and of course it would make the assumption that it must be the primary center around all occurrences happen, and so of course it would assume "it" should react to "save" or "spare" others the injustice of having to be the center of the universe and get angry over the occurrence too. Not to mention the ego really doesnt like the idea of NOT being the center upon which all events hinge. It also likes the aggrandizement of being the savior of lesser souls.

I believe that the I in this case must simply stop acting with preconceived notions of right and wrong. This allows the conscience to make such decisions, You may observe with no notion of right and wrong, but feelings will still be felt. Sometimes more powerful than if you had tried to create them willfully. I may have dodged the question. I do not try to remove emotion from the picture.

The "I" that I talk about is certaintly not what I would consider the ultimate observer. But somehow I think It/He/She gets emotionally involved without getting judgementally involved as well. Love something or not, it can still make you sad or happy.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Maybe, the awareness would watch to find out what happened next. Maybe there is no hole to fill. Perhaps no one else will need that spot until the older couple is done. Maybe no one else will get angry and the day will unfold as harmoniously as the older couple's relationship.

Maybe that which sees the hole is that which creates a hole. Perhaps no harm is done until harm is noticed, like Schrodinger's cat, perhaps the situation is neither this nor that till someone makes it so, by viewing it as such.

I can agree with that totally. Without tying it too much into the thread, that is an excellent assessment in my book. I just find it difficult to do, because by doing so I neglect expectations on me to act in a superficial manner, and therein create further dissonance. When I don't do what is wanted it comes back on me the next day with more force, until I am in a corner. And I guess what you are saying ultimately is to not let it bother me. I can try to focus on that, but I still must play my part which only contributes to the confusion. None of this is your fault, it's just a place I find myself and I doubt I meant to make it easy for myself either.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Novise]

Originally posted by Novise

I believe that the I in this case must simply stop acting with preconceived notions of right and wrong. This allows the conscience to make such decisions, You may observe with no notion of right and wrong, but feelings will still be felt.

For me, not only do I question preconceived notions of right and wrong, I even question the notion of right and wrong itself. On what scale is something absolutely right or absolutely objectively wrong? For me to know the answer to that, I would have to know the whole of the future in perfect detail. I dont. I would also have to know perfectly the entire past. I would have to know the way the whole universe was to play out, and there would have to be one fixed way it should play out, in order for me as an individual mind to know what is really "right or wrong" in any absolute objective sense. I dont have that knowledge. So I cant know.

However, as you point out, I do have feelings about things, some feel wrong, others feel right. To me. But these are SUBjective feelings. They originate from me, and really, they only apply to me. For me, it would be wrong to park in a handicapped spot, even if I had a placard, if I were capable of walking further and I knew someone else may not be. That feeling of rightness and wrongness dictates MY action. Or, if in the moment, I noticed someone parked in a handicapped spot who shouldnt be, and saw a handicapped person waiting for that spot, I might say to the person parked in that spot who didnt need it, "Would you mind moving your car? there is someone who needs that spot." All of that can occur without my becoming swept away by my feeling of anger at injustice. Your feelings about right and wrong dictate your actions, and they may compel you to ask someone else to move a certain way, but you can always remember that your feelings are subjective, and you dont know the ultimate good.

Perhaps the person I am "helping" by asking the person with no placard to move is not very handicapped at all. Or they have a relatives placard. And perhaps the person parked there without a placard has just had surgery, and decided not to apply for one, but is in great pain. I dont know. I try to remember that I dont know. That alone gives me a lot of freedom from judgment. And, it is less judgmental than judging my own judgment. Saying to myself "I am wrong to judge" is different than saying to myself, "I am feeling pretty judgmental here, but in truth, I dont know the ultimate good in this situation, only what I feel." One is harsh, the other is closer to the truth.

Originally posted by Novise
I just find it difficult to do, because by doing so I neglect expectations on me to act in a superficial manner, and therein create further dissonance. When I don't do what is wanted it comes back on me the next day with more force, until I am in a corner.

I dont have experience of that, so it is hard to comment on that aspect of it. Usually when I do not do what others expect me to do, I apologize that I cannot agree with them, and perhaps explain briefly my reason for not agreeing, but I do so in a way that lets them know I am not telling them what to do. Only what I will or will not do. Usually, that is enough. Sometimes someone may take offense, but if that is the case, it is usually just a snide or flip comment, which I duly note and dont respond to. I know that sometimes people take it as rejection of them, if you reject an idea of theirs, so I just accept that they may be venting hurt feelings. As long as it ends there, no harm is done.

Originally posted by Novise
And I guess what you are saying ultimately is to not let it bother me. I can try to focus on that, but I still must play my part which only contributes to the confusion.

No, I dont know if I am saying "dont let it bother you." If it bothers you, it bothers you. Dont struggle with yourself any more than you would with them. You are what you are, your feelings are what they are. I would spend some awareness on the feelings. If you are bothered, look at it carefully for a few moments, (Assuming you have time, and a life is not on the line) and honor your own feelings. But as for how that feeling translates into action, that is the tricky bit. You have to be true to yourself, but you have to know your true "self" from all the judgments of the mind. You should never act to just to please others, or to fulfill their expectations. You have to be true to your own deepest truest self, or in my opinion, you are harming that truest deepest self. And, if your awareness of that truest deepest self if well developed, and you arent confusing it with your ego, you will be doing what it in line with the highest good, whether you know it for sure or not.

Our highest self (Our conscious awareness) IS in line with the objective good naturally. It emanates from that "Highest Good" and it will not lead you away from that "highest good." But the thinking mind or the ego does not "know" the highest good. It cant, it doesnt emanate from that Good, it is a mechanical function of the brain. Thats why so many different spiritual traditions set you to the task of identifying who "you" in the most intimate sense, are. Once you identify your "self" as that consciousness, and can discriminate between it and the ego, you can allow it to guide both your physical actions and your thinking.

Edit; spelling



[edit on 3-3-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]

Persevere.. I have been abstaining from a prior alcohol/partying/clubbing lifestyle for a couple of months now. I live in Miami Beach, the clubbing destination of the USA.
I had some signs show up during my life that led to me distancing myself away from these regressive activities and those who reinforced them.

I look at this whole scheme as a type of trial.. maybe one shot won't do much, but I wouldn't deal with lower vibrational substances that remove inhibitions and reduce us to primal sexual instincts.
Man.. I know maybe a hundred good friends of mine that are going to this huge music festival here in Miami.. MDMA crazed frenzy.. This fractal of my being still wishes to partake because of the women, because of the ecstasy, because of the music.. Last time I went, I confess it was the best 2 days of my life.

Now, I have to stand by my decision of following the path of knowledge and spirit.

It's without a doubt one of the countless types of tribulations we have to endure when truly seeking "the light".

I hope it wasn't too much information.. I just felt that it was appropriate to convey my feelings on the subject by using examples from my life.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Reptilian Ph.D]

reply to post by aravoth

For myself I can say only that alcohol and meditation do not mix well. That is not to say that it won't for others. If I have had even half pint of Terminator, I won't be meditating, it's that simple. I have a very hard time tameing my mind when under the effects of alcohol, and I have yet to experience any energy sensations whatsoever while under the influence.

I think Id have to agree. Im not anti drink, everything in moderation...but alcohol and meditation for me do not mix anymore in anyway. Id even go as far to say possibly dangerous. Who knows what states of awarness we might delve into while mixing the two. I just think its a bad idea, you know I think if someone did one of the extreme forms of meditation while drinking alcohol it may lead to insanity...do you think? Mental instability possibly. May do, Im not saying in all cases, as we all have different levels of sensativity to these things.

on a friday i need 8 beers just to be relaxed enough to dance.

but then again i'm canadian

I rarely drink, basically abstain, except for a the odd occasion when a friend or family offers a drink. Alcohol is poison, and with my chronic fatigue syndrome makes me crash and burn immediately, affecting me even the next day, just one or two drinks. One of the beautiful things inherent in meditation is the ability to plug into the Force or Universal Energy, and chakra meditations are very good this way as well, which improves my health overall, including protecting me from breaking down and getting ill for the 5 months a year when the days are too short, which was a regular cycle for me prior to meditation.

Now my experience is extreme,but its an illustration of the differing properties of alcohol and meditation. Even if you arent' aware of it, even if your system metabolizes it differently, you are still being depleted of energy and nutrients, whereas meditation is an enhancer. They don't go hand in hand.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Unity_99]

uk.news.yahoo.com...

Interesting link, a new break through that removes the hang over, however you will still be drinking the same amount of alcohol, which will still effect your awarness...only thing is your minus the hang over headache.

Good thing ? Probably not.