Does it bother you that you believe some people will end up in Hell?

There is a real hell and it is not a metaphor, there is a place where the fallen angels are imprisoned, and there are evil human souls there, no one can talk to anyone there, there is no communication of any kind. There are people nailed up on crosses that had mocked the cross in life. There is huge lake of fire where millions of souls feel the roasting pain of fire, the demons keep shoving eople back in when they try and get out. People feel the pain but continue to survive because it is their spirit. The spirit can feel pain there and to the person that is there, it is not much different than having physical form except you don't die. The autonomic function of breathing and such still affects the spirit and you still try and breathe. sense of smell still exists and the demons are said to smell so bad that you wretch when near them. Your chance for mercy exists when you are physically alive, after that you could be in trouble if action wasnt taken in life to prevent it.
I also believe in God's mercy, but I am not waiting until after I die to believe or ask to be forgiven. people have freewill to believe and do what they want while alive, after that I expect you would find out all the answers as it pertains you you.
I heard all of this from someone who was taken to hell in order that he would tell people that didn't believe hell was a real place, that it really is a real place. According to him there are not any children there at all. The place scares me, wouldn't want to even take a tour.

reply to post by Donnie Darko



Your question is one that has also troubled me for a long time…
I now have a completely different understanding on it. You don’t have to go along with this but here is how I see it…


I believe hell is a place of destruction, not a place of eternal living punishment. To believe hell is a place of eternal living punishment, would be the same as believing Satan told the truth in the Garden of Eden when he said, Gen 3: 4 “You will not surely die” and that God lied when he said Gen 3: 3 “You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the Garden and you must not touch it, or you will die”.


No, God did not lie and was referring to spiritual death, i.e. when man turned away from God/Father. Also known as, "the fall of man."


Jesus talks about himself being the true vine and that all things are created through him and the Farther/God, so anything that is not connected to God, (spiritually speaking) cannot live. God does not want to destroy anyone in hell at all, but he knows we can’t survive without him.


We may possibly linger in the spiritual realm being cut of from God for a while but God can’t allow us into his kingdom unless we connect back to him and out of love, God will not allow us to exist forever in darkness, which is why he will humanely destroy those who have rejected him. So for me, God does not want to harm anyone but in the end, he will have no choice because he knows we cannot live without him because he is the life source of all things.


It’s up to us to connect back to God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Some Christian doctrines believe people will be given a second chance on the day of Judgment, which to me, is more in line with what a loving God would do.


There is also a verse in the bible in which God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" So in the end, God will have the final say on a persons eternal destiny IMO.



- JC


[edit on 25-2-2010 by Joecroft]

reply to post by anotherdad


You can't tell him he is not a Christian, sorry.
He is of the religion he chooses.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by kinda kurious

 

I'm afraid you can't eat your cake and have it too. It is one of the paradoxes and tenants of faith. It's like religion without sin? There cannot be light without dark.

Actually you can have your cake and eat it too, because Sheol the grave has been mistranslated.

Ooooppppssss. So this suggests that some ancient scholars misinterpreted / mistranslated the Bible? ( aka:The Word of God, the Truth.) Seems like one of the fundamental precepts, no? ( Good vs. Evil, Heaven vs. Hell.)

Funny how the contradiction to suit an agenda by religious zealots can trump the alleged holy text. I hope (for other's sake) they got all the other stuff right.

Some folks seem to enjoy their religion "buffet-style" I suppose. Heck if they abolish the whole sin thing, pass the plate. I'm donating. I'd especially like services to be held at the mall food court to compliment my busy lifestyle.

Cake indeed, let 'em eat it. Nice try Stormlady.





[edit on 26-2-2010 by kinda kurious]

If we have a mortal life that is temporary, then we die then that is one
death for one life. If we have a spiritual life after the physical then it stands
to reason there can be a 2nd death. Many people make the mistake that
where the Bible describes the fires of hell as forever lasting.They think
people in hell suffer forever. Not so. the book of Rev. says the fires of
hell are the second death. Your soul is burned up and you exist no more.

Rev: 2-11 So He that overcometh will not be hurt of the second death.

Rev: 20-6 Blessed and and holy is he who has a part of the first resurrection for he will not know of the second death.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by randyvs]

Okay, I have to toss in my two cent question - how can one claim to be a Christian, a believer in Jesus Christ, yet not believe in hell?

The Bible clearly describes, in graphic detail, about hell - yet there are now Christians that choose to reject that part of the Scriptures.

The Bible wasn't given to us as a 'multiple choice' piece of literary - where we 'pick and choose' the parts we agree with, and denounce the parts we don't.

Color me confused at society - both Christian and non Christian.

reply to post by Signals


And by saying that you damn yourself to an eternity of suffering.

I can't tell if you are mucking about but if you are not then you are a hypocrite.

reply to post by antideceit


Oh he's managed to scare you real good hasn't he!

Yeah, that kind of rubbish used to work on me too, until I chose to believe that an all loving God is better to worship than a hypocrite.

There are good people and then there are bad people. A lot of Christians are bad people, selfish and arrogant. I am a better person since I stopped believing in all of that punishment crap.

Take a good look at yourself and think about whether you are actually glad to see people suffer, no matter how "evil" they might be. I bet you think "sod them", they had their chance! As long as you get your spot in heaven then it doesn't matter.

How close am I?

Think about whether you really are a "good" person, or just a "good" person in the perspective of the bible and other fellow Christians. If you see someone suffering, would you help them because you are a good loving person, or would you have that feeling in the back of your mind that somehow Jesus is watching and is gaining you more points?

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by Donnie Darko

 

the thought of a loving God sending anyone to Hell is one of the main problems I see with Christianity.

I am not perfect. I've got a lot of faults (whoo boy). But I would never send someone to Hell. It's just not my nature.

So if I, a lowly imperfect person, couldn't damn someone because I find it reprehensible, don't you think a loving God would feel the same?

Just my opinion, of course.

I totally agree!

reply to post by SaturnFX


I'm going to add you as a friend....

We see it the same with this whole 'Heaven /Hell' thing....

Your post was so right on!!!!

Heaven/Hell for religious people are whatever they want it to be..they are places in people's minds...not to mention that Heaven is just the term that the anicents used when referring to Space, but that's another story.....

Funny, this thread was moved to BTS.

One level closer to that place that doesn't exist.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by kinda kurious]

reply to post by Joecroft


While what you are saying is a great striving towards what you consider to be a beautiful God, it is not in line with Christ's teachings, nor that of the Prophets. You are certainly looking at the correct things and you certainly are working with the right parts, however, when I take your construction further down it's path of maturity, it is easy to start seeing where it runs out of headroom. Keeping the image of coming from and returning to the Father:

In Life a Void was made. Because Life is eternal, the Void was filled with Life. Within the Unknowable God we understand there to be an "Us." This "Us" is beyond comprehension. However, They made Themselves known to us by moving towards us. These first movements are Order (displayed to us through the law and prophets), and Charity (displayed through the provision of God becoming man and mastering death as the Creator and to also live within us as the Comforter). We are vessels. The Spirit from above within us and a promise of a new physical realm and body...

Twice born. Not born-again. Born another time. It is not a repeat, it is a progression. Just as this realm is an image of the next realm, not a repeat.

The vessels were grown up from the Void and through the dirt. Just as stars, we are dust. Just as God came to us in Order and Charity, we have DNA and life, form and movement. On a spiritual level, our form is our body and our soul is our movement. When someone is not provided a new body and not provided the spirit of God, they are not able to bear the burden of eternal existence. They end.

It is not up to us to connect to God. The ones which God connects to are connected. That is to say, if you have connected yourself to God, it was God who established and sustains you, just as They did your body. If they do not sustain your body, you will return to dust and then void. If They do not sustain your soul, you will return to void. We simply cannot exist eternally without provision. If they do not give you a body and soul appropriate for traveling through eternity, you will return to where you came from.

There are not "two chances." There is not one chance. There is either a tree that was planted to bear fruit, or there are the wild trees that are cut down for firewood. OrderCharity is not altered by our opinions of loving, however, they are also not limited by our limited ability to understand loving. God is much more than "loving." God is also much more than "peaceful." God is OrderCharity and They have made Themselves known to us. Hell is as much a place as this world is a place, but do not forget that this place is a vapor to Eternal Life.

reply to post by Dasher

Originally posted by Dasher
While what you are saying is a great striving towards what you consider to be a beautiful God, it is not in line with Christ's teachings, nor that of the Prophets. You are certainly looking at the correct things and you certainly are working with the right parts, however, when I take your construction further down it's path of maturity, it is easy to start seeing where it runs out of headroom. Keeping the image of coming from and returning to the Father:

Where exactly, is my first post, not in line with Christ teachings?

Originally posted by Dasher
In Life a Void was made. Because Life is eternal, the Void was filled with Life. Within the Unknowable God we understand there to be an "Us." This "Us" is beyond comprehension. However, They made Themselves known to us by moving towards us. These first movements are Order (displayed to us through the law and prophets), and Charity (displayed through the provision of God becoming man and mastering death as the Creator and to also live within us as the Comforter). We are vessels. The Spirit from above within us and a promise of a new physical realm and body...

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant by “connecting back too God”, which is done by receiving the Holy Spirit/comforter.

Originally posted by Dasher
Twice born. Not born-again. Born another time. It is not a repeat, it is a progression. Just as this realm is an image of the next realm, not a repeat.

Not sure I follow you here. Jesus actually tells us to seek him and to be born again.

Originally posted by Dasher
The vessels were grown up from the Void and through the dirt. Just as stars, we are dust. Just as God came to us in Order and Charity, we have DNA and life, form and movement. On a spiritual level, our form is our body and our soul is our movement. When someone is not provided a new body and not provided the spirit of God, they are not able to bear the burden of eternal existence. They end.

NIV
Mat 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The bible doesn’t say “they are not able to bear the burden of eternal existence”, it says they are going to be destroyed. Destroyed means cease to exist, not eternal living punishment.

Originally posted by Dasher
It is not up to us to connect to God. The ones which God connects to are connected. That is to say, if you have connected yourself to God, it was God who established and sustains you, just as They did your body. If they do not sustain your body, you will return to dust and then void. If They do not sustain your soul, you will return to void. We simply cannot exist eternally without provision. If they do not give you a body and soul appropriate for traveling through eternity, you will return to where you came from.

It is up to us to connect back to God, albeit with some help from God of course. We connect back to God by first seeking the truth through Jesus and then by receiving the Holy Spirit. Your body does return to dust and awaits to be resurrected but if you are unrighteous and have not connected back to God/Father, your soul lives on in hades and can only be destroyed later in the “lake of fire.”

Both the unrighteous and the righteous are to be resurrected i.e. their souls will be put into their new bodies, which some Christians believe means the unrighteous might be given a second chance to connected back to God.

Originally posted by Dasher
There are not "two chances." There is not one chance. There is either a tree that was planted to bear fruit, or there are the wild trees that are cut down for firewood.

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but you seem to be suggesting, that no one has a say in their eternal destiny and that a persons future is pre-ordained, to either be firewood or bear fruit. Personally I refuse to accept that. All trees are designed to bear fruit, it’s just a question of whether they learn to do so or not.


- JC


[edit on 27-2-2010 by Joecroft]

Originally posted by Joecroft
Where exactly, is my first post, not in line with Christ teachings?

We are the sanctified, not the ones who sanctify.
Therefore, it is basic to see that those who do not express a sanctified life are going to break at some point. The whole creation is vanity.

Sanctification is not up to us, although the benefits of it are common to us all in some form. Some to the point of progress (judges/elohim), while others are only benefited temporarily (ungodly men/animals/plants). Obviously there are different forms of and complexities with those who progress (some are prophets, some are janitors, some are children), and also with those who do not progress (man lives a short life while fungus and trees live much longer, and can often benefit the world much more).

Digressing, those who understand God's provision and express it are elohim. So much so that Elohim is not ashamed to be One with them.

Life came down, and They brought us up.
"The fall" is not about failure, it is about the realization of impossibility and the natural inclination of denial thereof. It is both something we are not able to effect, and is also something that provokes rebellion. More so, "the rising" is not about the achievement, it is about the realization of impossibility and the turning away from the natural inclination towards the denial thereof (and void in general). The clarity of mind OrderCharity brings is startling. And yet the cloud of pride and chaos looms in this world.

Originally posted by Joecroft
Not sure I follow you here. Jesus actually tells us to seek him and to be born again.

Certainly, but the better understanding of His words is that it is a birthing from above. Let me simplify, if you understand sanctification as something you can do from this body or soul, it would be the same to think that a particular creatures life force is more worthy than another. However we are all frail. The judges are fountains overflowing, but we did not fill up our own vessel.

The provision of more, of moving on to another realm is a birthing provided to us to express different images of the Creators. Even in birth we can see the image of God and Their gifts. In essence, we are in a womb, and we have been conceived by Christ and Comfort. In the time of fruition, we will be born into another place. And if the promise is true, which I believe it is, it is in the direction of Good/Godly and beyond my full grasping.

So, you see, even the overly basic understanding of such marketing terms as "born-again" tend to draw away from that which is eternal. The amount of idols in this world are incredible. Sadly the Apparent Church is a priesthood of idols. Same for secular government. The whole understanding of God's equal provision is what made the US constitution have teeth and bearing. Regardless of what form of government or culture, this is the basic teaching of Christ and is the only way to mostly escape the tower and it's city within this realm.
Give to God all, and give to your neighbor as yourself

Sorry for sliding off topic...

Originally posted by Joecroft
Destroyed means cease to exist, not eternal living punishment.

Yes, I realize. Death of death is correct. However, that process very well may play out in a realm before full cessation. From what I gather from the languages and with my most intent reasoning, returning to void may very well feel like an eternal destruction. How long does it take to and how does it feel to be required of any last bit of life and eternal goodness you might have had? When you have to give back what is not yours, it can't be a great process, and I'm sure it would seem like forever.

Conversely, from the vantage point of the eternal, that vapor of death will all but not exist. Do you follow? The OP's question was specifically if we feel bad about hell. My answer is no, because, to the eternal, death is only a memory. This is not an issue of revenge (disconnection or pride), it is an issue of vengeance (charity that is orderly). This is also not an issue of receiving goodies in heaven (chaos or obtainment), it is an issue of life (order that is charitable).

Originally posted by Joecroft
It is up to us to connect back to God, albeit with some help from God of course.

God provides, They do not tempt.
God provides, They comfort us.
This is not a game to be won, however, if you are to be glorified at the finish line, you will have ran your race in a glorious way. All things are given to us. And what we have will be taken away if we are not the Sons of God.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Originally posted by Joecroft
... your soul lives on in hades and can only be destroyed later in the “lake of fire.”

Yeah, see?, how it refers to it is as a realm?, so I tend to accept that the process of ungodliness having it's life recalled is a ritual/realm and not just a concept.

Do not forget;
Psa 39:5 Indeed, You have made my days as handbreadths, And my age is as nothing before You; Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor. Selah.

So then, what about man in his least state? Just because they might observe something as taking an eternity, it does not alter Life.

Originally posted by Joecroft
Both the unrighteous and the righteous are to be resurrected

This lends more weight to there being other realms. To transform this into a second chance is to add to it.

Originally posted by Joecroft
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but you seem to be suggesting, that no one has a say in their eternal destiny and that a persons future is pre-ordained, to either be firewood or bear fruit.

In John 10, Joshua pointedly describes this.

Originally posted by Joecroft
Personally I refuse to accept that. All trees are designed to bear fruit, it’s just a question of whether they learn to do so or not.

It is the natural fall of man to deny our lack of self-completion. But be comforted, God provides. Many trees do not bear fruit. Some trees are only good for wood. Some for fruit. There is no shame in that.

All of Luke thirteen addresses this, but specifically Luke 13:6-9. It is a very short and direct parable. Consider it well.

[edit on 2/27/2010 by Dasher]

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Okay, I have to toss in my two cent question - how can one claim to be a Christian, a believer in Jesus Christ, yet not believe in hell?

The Bible clearly describes, in graphic detail, about hell - yet there are now Christians that choose to reject that part of the Scriptures.

The Bible wasn't given to us as a 'multiple choice' piece of literary - where we 'pick and choose' the parts we agree with, and denounce the parts we don't.

Color me confused at society - both Christian and non Christian.

A metaphor is a "poetic" way of conveying meaning.

Book of Revelation pictures heaven as "the New Jerusalem," the most opulent city the author could conceive. On the very rare occasions hell arises, the analogy is to Gehenna, where Jerusalem burned its trash.
Or we form our image of hell from a poor translation of the Hebrew Sheol (place where all the dead go, in the Old Testament understanding, regardless of the type of life they lived) Or from Dante.


And our image of God often determines our image of justice. For some
God is the just accountant, keeping a record of every personal sin we
committed. For others the image is one of a loving parent, vividly
portrayed in both Testaments, through Christ and the prophets.
But we seem drawn more to a Heveanly Accountant who will most
assuredly punish those we think deserving of his wrath.

We assume that sin is this or that action against God's law, breaking
the 'rules'. When the greater sin is the sin of omission. 'When we did
not do it for the least ones...'

Avoiding sin out of fear of hell is purely selfish.

God as loving parent assures us that God loves us. Once we know that we are loved, it is normal to want to return that love—to love the God who loves us first. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love. We love because God first loved us. 1 John 4:18-19

And we die who we have become over the course of a lifetime: loving or unloving. God knows the heart. That's why we can never assume that
even the most wretched we know are in hell, which is after all an eternal
state of separation from God, not a 'place'.

reply to post by Dasher

Originally posted by Dasher
We are the sanctified, not the ones who sanctify.

Yes I know, I never suggested otherwise. The Father/God has already helped us too find him and is still doing so today. God still draws people towards the truth but it is up to us, to also do our part, to try to seek/find him and connect back to God.

Originally posted by Dasher
Life came down, and They brought us up.
"The fall" is not about failure, it is about the realization of impossibility and the natural inclination of denial thereof. It is both something we are not able to effect, and is also something that provokes rebellion. More so, "the rising" is not about the achievement, it is about the realization of impossibility and the turning away from the natural inclination towards the denial thereof (and void in general). The clarity of mind OrderCharity brings is startling. And yet the cloud of pride and chaos looms in this world.

“the rising”

“OrderCharity”

Originally posted by Dasher
Conversely, from the vantage point of the eternal, that vapor of death will all but not exist. Do you follow?

No, I’m not sure I do…

Originally posted by Dasher
God provides, They do not tempt.
God provides, They comfort us.

Yes but…
God provides, but people are not seeking him.
God provides, but people seek out their own comfort.

Originally posted by Dasher
Yeah, see?, how it refers to it is as a realm?, so I tend to accept that the process of ungodliness having it's life recalled is a ritual/realm and not just a concept.

What do mean by ritual and life recalled?

Originally posted by Joecroft
Both the unrighteous and the righteous are to be resurrected

Originally posted by Dasher
This lends more weight to there being other realms. To transform this into a second chance is to add to it.

The context of the verses which talk about resurrection of the unrighteous, is closely followed by them being thrown into hell, where their bodies and souls will be destroyed forever. God resurrects the unrighteous, puts their souls into their new bodies and then destroys them! I mean why not just deal with their souls directly, by destroying them immediately, why go to the trouble of resurrecting their bodies first?

You don’t have too answer that question…

This is why some denominations believe the unrighteous, might be given a second chance.

Originally posted by Dasher
There are not "two chances." There is not one chance. There is either a tree that was planted to bear fruit, or there are the wild trees that are cut down for firewood.

Originally posted by Joecroft
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but you seem to be suggesting, that no one has a say in their eternal destiny and that a persons future is pre-ordained, to either be firewood or bear fruit.

Personally I refuse to accept that. All trees are designed to bear fruit, it’s just a question of whether they learn to do so or not.

Originally posted by Dasher
It is the natural fall of man to deny our lack of self-completion. But be comforted, God provides. Many trees do not bear fruit. Some trees are only good for wood. Some for fruit. There is no shame in that.

All of Luke thirteen addresses this, but specifically Luke 13:6-9. It is a very short and direct parable. Consider it well.

Yes but people are not pre-ordained to be sheep, they only become sheep so to speak, by seeking God, repenting for their sins etc and ultimately being born again in the spirit.

Look at the verse above the one you quoted…

NIV
Luke 13:2-5

Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Originally posted by Joecroft
God still draws people towards the truth but it is up to us, to also do our part, to try to seek/find him and connect back to God.

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
While I accept there to be flaws in written scripture, the simplicity of this verse most likely survived the frailty of humanity and communicates equally what it is the word speaks. Especially coupled with other verses which I will quote at the appropriate time in this response.
It is God who sows and reaps, who establishes and sustains. All other teachings is vain boasting.
Jam 4:13-17
Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

Do you see that we are bound to our weakness which condemns us, but we are also judged with our weakness as a consideration. This weakness was healed by and erased by Christ and Comfort. Those who make claims of their own strength, even in the most small way do not understand the provision of God.

Originally posted by Joecroft
“the rising”

Also known as the resurrection of Christ and His brethren through His mastery of death.

Originally posted by Joecroft
“OrderCharity”

Judges 6:24 - The Creators can be understood to be Order.
1 John 4:8 - The Creators can be understood to be Charity.
Again, the Father establishes and sustains. Life is not an opportunity, it is a ritual. Just as natural birth is a ritual.

Originally posted by Joecroft
No, I’m not sure I do…

Regardless of how long the light may be out, once the light shines, all darkness flees. Not only is darkness temporary, and therefore short-lived, but it is also weak at the sight of the eternal light and flees into the shadows. While living in the shadows the children of darkness will most likely live in a realm of death, just as the flesh decays, the soul will decay, but rather than a place where they will be confused, it is a place of confusion. Alternately, the children of Light will continue on and progress and the darkness will simply be a memory fleeing from the light that God pours out within them. I don't fully comprehend how that will manifest, but I do believe that it is a more rational place than a place of confusion and decay.

Originally posted by Joecroft
God provides, but people are not seeking him.
God provides, but people seek out their own comfort.

Then they are only provided a little and what little they have will be required of them. Those who seek truly seek because they have been made seekers. Those who are comforted are comforted because they have been given comfort.
Jhn 10:1-8
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Luk 19:24-27 - Please read the entire chapter as well.
And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give [it] to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

Originally posted by Joecroft
What do mean by ritual and life recalled?

Ritual - A ceremony that has no literal cause and effect, however it is a living analogy to something going on in another realm. For instance, the ritual of animal sacrifice to God and the ritual of hunting meat to eat are very similar in that they teach us that life in this realm must be provided for. Even in eating vegetables, we take life so that we may continue. Likewise, Christ/God provided their own ritual of self-sacrifice to provide that which we cannot, which is mastery/transcendence of this realm.

Life recalled - I mean this in the literal sense. Meaning, as life has been provided to all, all are servants to the Creators, regardless of their observations or declarations. However, at the time the requirements of eternal existence fall squarely on the individual, per their claims to being self-completed, they cannot bear such a costly burden.

Matt 25:1-13

Originally posted by Joecroft
I mean why not just deal with their souls directly, by destroying them immediately, why go to the trouble of resurrecting their bodies first?

Because the body of this realm cannot continue into the next. But as Christ is not without Comfort, and Counsel is not without Understanding, the soul is not without a type of body. So then, while we cannot fully grasp what it means to be in the next realm, we do understand that the pattern of the spiritual and physical being united, in some way, continues regardless of the death of the body in this realm. Remember, we are vessels. Just as angels are vessels and just as demons are vessels. However, to the Light, temporary vessels are as vapors.

reply to post by Joecroft

Originally posted by Joecroft
Look at the verse above the one you quoted…

I do not see what you are pointing at.

Rom 8:20-21
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

We are weak by nature. This is part of the way things are designed. This realm is simply not eternal, but it is obviously established by that which is eternal. To progress into communion with eternal existence, They must provide. And for Their children, They have.


Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who are God's children, they were not elected by their lineage, by their conduct, nor their choices, but were elected by the will of God.


Jhn 10:24-28
Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Pretty straight forward here. Those who are Christ's brethren know Him and He knows them. Those who do not hear or see are simply not able.

Rom 9:11-13
(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:14-18
What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19-23
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,



Again, God provides all things.

Digressing...
Hell, for those who have not been provided for eternally, but rather, they were only provided for temporarily, their decay is most likely in a "real" way. But again, consider that those who have provided for eternally will only know such a place as a story. The paradox of vantage points altering perception is important to understand, but not to obsess over. Set your eyes on progress, set your eyes on things that are eternal and that which falls away will fall away into the pain of falling away. I do not envy those who have been broken off, but their passing is fleeting as the shadows.

[edit on 2/27/2010 by Dasher]

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
I cannot believe in a god that lets even one solitary child Die of thirst on this planet ..

Indeed. If I were to allow a child to die of thirst when I had the power to prevent it, how many people would think me worthy of the death penalty or at least life in prison? How many religionists would think I deserved to go to hell for such a calloused and sadistic act of negligence? And yet we are lead to believe that there exists an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful god who sees things like this all the time and much much worse but what does he do? He watches like a voyeur getting his jollies without lifting so much as one righteous finger to help.

Oh wait! He did do something. He sent his only begotten son to be brutally beaten and murdered, on your behalf. All you have to do is accept that on faith but don't think for a moment that it will save you from the voyeurs meat grinder.

What a load of BS.

reply to post by Dasher

Originally posted by Joecroft
“the rising” ?

Originally posted by Dasher
Also known as the resurrection of Christ and His brethren through His mastery of death.

Sorry, I’m not used to that type of terminology.

Originally posted by Dasher
Judges 6:24 - The Creators can be understood to be Order.
1 John 4:8 - The Creators can be understood to be Charity.

The Creators can be understood by more things, than just Order and Charity.
1 John 4:8 Yes, God is Love.

You are using the phrase “Creators”, which can only mean one of two things. Now I don’t know all of your beliefs regarding this but I personally, have rejected the idea of the trinity. I also, and this may sound like blasphemy, only accept the words which come directly from the Father/God and Jesus, spoken in the Old and New Testaments, everything else, is the words of men and therefore must be considered carefully and in it’s proper perspective.

Originally posted by Dasher
Luk 19:24-27 -
And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give [it] to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

Yes but there is a big difference between someone who does not know or believe God exists and an enemy of God. An enemy of God, knows God is real but rejects everything he stands for i.e. the devil.

Originally posted by Joecroft
God resurrects the unrighteous, puts their souls into their new bodies and then destroys them! I mean why not just deal with their souls directly, by destroying them immediately, why go to the trouble of resurrecting their bodies first?

Originally posted by Dasher
Because the body of this realm cannot continue into the next.

The question I put forward, is related to the final judgment. God resurrects the unrighteous i.e. he gives them their bodies back, as he also does the same for the righteous. The righteous souls get their new bodies and go into heaven.

The unrighteous on the other hand, now have new bodies, and are then to be thrown into the “lake of fire”, where not only, will their bodies will be destroyed but their souls also. The question I asked was, why would God go to the trouble of giving the unrighteous souls, their bodies back, only to destroy them both? Why not just destroy the soul on it’s own, in the “lake of fire”?

I wasn’t expecting you to answer the question, I merely used it, to point towards a possible reason, why some believe, God is going to give the unrighteous a second chance, to enter in to heaven.

Anyway, your answer to it, doesn’t make any sense, so I can only assume, you didn’t fully understand the question.

Originally posted by Dasher
I do not see what you are pointing at.

I will try to explain…
You said the following…

Originally posted by Dasher
There are not "two chances." There is not one chance. There is either a tree that was planted to bear fruit, or there are the wild trees that are cut down for firewood.

To which I replied…

Originally posted by Joecroft
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but you seem to be suggesting, that no one has a say in their eternal destiny and that a persons future is pre-ordained, to either be firewood or bear fruit
Personally I refuse to accept that. All trees are designed to bear fruit, it’s just a question of whether they learn to do so or not.

The verse Luke 13:2-5 is talking about repentance, yes the sheep hear his voice but it doesn’t matter whether you be a sheep or not, you still have to repent for your sins. We are all unrighteous and therefore we are all in the same boat, so to speak. Even though, I will admit that God does call some people specifically, that doesn’t mean, that everyone else, doesn’t have a choice. There was a time when I was not a sheep i.e. I didn’t know God/Father but now I do because like Jesus says “those who seek, will find him.”



We agree that people need to be born again, which I term “connecting back to God”

We agree that souls are going to be destroyed…

We agree that God is the one who sanctifies and not us…

I also agree with most of the passages you have posted and even though I have found it difficult to understand some of the terminology you have used, I think we are in agreement on those also.

In my first post on this thread, I wasn’t trying to outline the entire teachings of Christ! and neither do I think it would be possible to do so, in just one post. So…

What exactly do you disagree with, in my first post, on this thread? Perhaps you could be a bit more specific, in your next reply.



- JC