What the hell does this have to do with 'team Obama'? Every frigging thing that comes up on this site gets balmed on him for some reason.
This situation is pretty straight forward if you read ALL the information that has come out around it. The acceleration problem has been around for
years. Toyota ducked it, marginalized it and attempted to explain it away. Eventually the weight of the evidence forced Toyota to come clean
(although many believe they still haven't). Once it was shown that they had covered-up the acceleration issue the others came to light as well.
Ultimately it will be proved that the acceleration issue is some problem with their ECM.
Toyota has been engaged in widespread and longterm efforts to hide known problems with their vehicles. Once the facade cracked it drew attention to
them and now the floodgates have opened. It's their own fault.
Politics Attacking Toyota - This Stinks !!!, page 3
privacy
reply posted on 18-2-2010 @ 05:07 PM by MikeNice81
reply to post by 297GT
So, because a BMW you bought 14 years ago is better than an unnamed GM product, it makes all the data about 2005 and newer American products wrong? At least argue with a little common sense. If you can tell me that a 2005 or 2006 BMW has less complaints than a 2005 or 2006 Buick I will admit I'm wrong.
My former boss bought a brand new 2001 BMW 5 series. In two years the radiator cracked, there was a tire blow out that BMW later adressed with a recall, he had to have the heads cleaned because of a carbon build up, and he had issues with an oil leak due to a faulty seal. That doesn't matter though. Why? Because I was talking about 2005 and newer cars. I was specificly adressing 2006 model year cars when I mentioned BMW.
My Buick has been trouble free. I have only put it in the shop once. That was because a Ford F-150 hit me in the front fender.
Why is it impossible to believe that American cars are being built better than thy were eight or twelve years ago? Yeah there are some crappy American vehicles. (I wouldn't buy a Jeep these days.) There are also crappy cars from Germany. (Volkswagen is one of the three least dependable.) Japan also has some crappy cars. (Suzuki is the least dependable.) Just because a Chevrolet doesn't hold up as well as a BMW doesn't mean that a BMW is more dependable than a Buick or Mercury. That is just faulty logic.
So, because a BMW you bought 14 years ago is better than an unnamed GM product, it makes all the data about 2005 and newer American products wrong? At least argue with a little common sense. If you can tell me that a 2005 or 2006 BMW has less complaints than a 2005 or 2006 Buick I will admit I'm wrong.
My former boss bought a brand new 2001 BMW 5 series. In two years the radiator cracked, there was a tire blow out that BMW later adressed with a recall, he had to have the heads cleaned because of a carbon build up, and he had issues with an oil leak due to a faulty seal. That doesn't matter though. Why? Because I was talking about 2005 and newer cars. I was specificly adressing 2006 model year cars when I mentioned BMW.
My Buick has been trouble free. I have only put it in the shop once. That was because a Ford F-150 hit me in the front fender.
Why is it impossible to believe that American cars are being built better than thy were eight or twelve years ago? Yeah there are some crappy American vehicles. (I wouldn't buy a Jeep these days.) There are also crappy cars from Germany. (Volkswagen is one of the three least dependable.) Japan also has some crappy cars. (Suzuki is the least dependable.) Just because a Chevrolet doesn't hold up as well as a BMW doesn't mean that a BMW is more dependable than a Buick or Mercury. That is just faulty logic.
reply posted on 18-2-2010 @ 05:46 PM by kinda kurious
Originally posted by Eurisko2012
reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
Have you driven a Ford lately?
I bought one. Ford Expedition
No problems.
No wonder you want cheap oil!
I too drive a Ford which gets almost 30 mpg.
I doubt if Obama will be too tough on poor little Yota. Especially since Japan has surpassed China as the largest holder of American debt.
You often spout off about American supremacy and encourage people to buy Toyota? While it is true some are made in U.S., the PROFITS go to Japan.
Pumping irony?
[edit on 18-2-2010 by kinda kurious]
reply posted on 18-2-2010 @ 06:05 PM by emeraldzeus
reply to post by MikeNice81
I have owned Toyotas, and bought them because of the overwhelming customer ratings....not the ratings supplied by any research group.
So my findings? Out of the 8 vehicles I've owned over the years, 3 of them were foreign, the others were American. Care to guess which ones were the money pits? The American cars! Not a single one of the foreign cars, (all Japanese), have given us any trouble, and we've owned them the longest. Not once have they left us stranded, but the American ones were notorious for that. Customers of Toyota KNOW what real reliability means....even after you go over 100,000 or 200,000 or even 300,000 miles. They are just built to keep going and going. American cars aren't built to last much longer than 150,000 miles before major components need replacing, (like the transmission, which have all been pieces of crap in every Ford I ever owned). Let's not forget the PLASTIC engine components that would burn out regularly, or the covered-up record of electrical problems within Ford's vehicles.
Toyota....sorry, but I think it is a witch hunt against the company. I'd love to buy American, but until they can produce something that is just as reliable AND retain it's trade-in value, I won't be wasting my money on them any more.
Toyota owners know better, and the big deal they're making on the news is just a bunch of hogwash in which they're parroting what they're being force to report from their owners.....who, ironically, are all somehow in bed with G.E., the government, or the stocks that govern these decisions.
Turn off your stinking news channels and let performance speak for itself. Hands down, these are the most reliable cars I've ever owned.....period.
I have owned Toyotas, and bought them because of the overwhelming customer ratings....not the ratings supplied by any research group.
So my findings? Out of the 8 vehicles I've owned over the years, 3 of them were foreign, the others were American. Care to guess which ones were the money pits? The American cars! Not a single one of the foreign cars, (all Japanese), have given us any trouble, and we've owned them the longest. Not once have they left us stranded, but the American ones were notorious for that. Customers of Toyota KNOW what real reliability means....even after you go over 100,000 or 200,000 or even 300,000 miles. They are just built to keep going and going. American cars aren't built to last much longer than 150,000 miles before major components need replacing, (like the transmission, which have all been pieces of crap in every Ford I ever owned). Let's not forget the PLASTIC engine components that would burn out regularly, or the covered-up record of electrical problems within Ford's vehicles.
Toyota....sorry, but I think it is a witch hunt against the company. I'd love to buy American, but until they can produce something that is just as reliable AND retain it's trade-in value, I won't be wasting my money on them any more.
Toyota owners know better, and the big deal they're making on the news is just a bunch of hogwash in which they're parroting what they're being force to report from their owners.....who, ironically, are all somehow in bed with G.E., the government, or the stocks that govern these decisions.
Turn off your stinking news channels and let performance speak for itself. Hands down, these are the most reliable cars I've ever owned.....period.
reply posted on 18-2-2010 @ 06:37 PM by 297GT
reply to post by MikeNice81
ok brother you win, I dont care really...
I just know for a fact the quality, finish, drive, and reliability (discounting your 're-call' industry stats) is so much better than US domestic products. And dont get me started on the prices of repairs and services....The cost for a domestic car is an absolute joke.
Euro cars are cheaper to repair IF you can find a mechanic who doesn't add on $ because of the 'brand'.
Our Lexus (toyota) is just a dream, and my old M3....that still IMHO has to be one of the BEST handling mass built production car ever.
But you go buy another hummer/suv/caddy/ ____ (add your own) what ever....I really dont care LOL trust me when I say this....
I'll make sure I give you a wave next time you are following my tail lights rofl....
ok brother you win, I dont care really...
I just know for a fact the quality, finish, drive, and reliability (discounting your 're-call' industry stats) is so much better than US domestic products. And dont get me started on the prices of repairs and services....The cost for a domestic car is an absolute joke.
Euro cars are cheaper to repair IF you can find a mechanic who doesn't add on $ because of the 'brand'.
Our Lexus (toyota) is just a dream, and my old M3....that still IMHO has to be one of the BEST handling mass built production car ever.
But you go buy another hummer/suv/caddy/ ____ (add your own) what ever....I really dont care LOL trust me when I say this....
I'll make sure I give you a wave next time you are following my tail lights rofl....
reply posted on 18-2-2010 @ 08:40 PM by MikeNice81
reply to post by emeraldzeus
I haven't said that Toyota's are bad cars. I said that a lot of American cars are made to a higher quality standard than they get credit for.
I disagree that it is a witch hunt. Toyota had a reputation that was beyond reproach. All of a sudden they recall 3.8 million vehicles. That is going to get the press rolling. Then they said that the floormat fix would correct the whole problem of stuck accelerators. A little while later they recall millions more cars because the floor mat fix doesn't fix those cars.
Then people complain about a braking problem with the Prius and Toyota says there is not a problem. Turns out that 147,000 Toyota hybrids might have an ABS issue. So Toyota recalls all of those cars. Rumors come out that Corolla owners are having power steering problems. Toyota denies that there is a problem. Now we hear they may recall the Corolla and are working with the government on the investigation.
Do you not see how this is news worthy? The company witht he most respect for build quality keeps saying there is no problem. Then they keep issuing new recalls for the problems they said do not exist. That is news worthy.
If the press was piling on they would mention that 110,000 Tundras manufactured between 2000 and 2003 are being recalled for excessive corosion on the rear crossmember frame. They would mention the fact that a similar recall was issued for 2005 to 2010 Tundras in October. They would mention that there was also a recall for the drive shaft in Toyota Tundras this year. They would report that 8,000 Camrys are being recalled for brake hose issues. The media could mention that 8,000 2010 Tacomas are being recalled for front drive shaft issues. They would mention the fact that the issues that lead to the Tacoma recall have been reported since 2007. They would mention that 27,000 Toyotas were recalled last year for not having the proper load carrying capacity modification labels. They would mention that in January of 2009 Toyota recalled 1.3 million cars for a defect that could cause fires in colisions.
I think, given the many things they could talk about, they are being pretty nice to Toyota at this point.
I still think Toyota makes a car that is better than 90% of what is out there. My friend's Range Rover spent 90 business days in the shop last year. My other friend's Mini had issues that kept it in the shop for nearly 45 days total (including weekends).
All of that is beside the point. My main point was that American cars are better than people give them credit for. Some are even more dependable than names like Toyota, BMW, and Mercedees. For some reason people don't want to believe what is the new reality.
Everybody wants to believe when Toyota says they are sorry and will try harder. Nobody believed it when GM ran ads on national TV and in dozens of magazines saying the same thing. People refuse to believe it despite the fact that the Cadillac CTS is one of Car and Driver's top ten three years running. They refuse to believe it when studies show that Buick owners have fewer complaints than other owners.
If all American car's are so bad why is Buick the most sought after car in China? They could easily buy a car from Japan or Korea. Yet the well heeled still want a Buick. Why is it that Top Gear is praising the CTS-V, Corvette z06, and Challenger SRT if all American cars are bad cars? It is amazing that American cars are gaining respect everywhere but at home.
[edit on 18-2-2010 by MikeNice81]
[edit on 18-2-2010 by MikeNice81]
I haven't said that Toyota's are bad cars. I said that a lot of American cars are made to a higher quality standard than they get credit for.
I disagree that it is a witch hunt. Toyota had a reputation that was beyond reproach. All of a sudden they recall 3.8 million vehicles. That is going to get the press rolling. Then they said that the floormat fix would correct the whole problem of stuck accelerators. A little while later they recall millions more cars because the floor mat fix doesn't fix those cars.
Then people complain about a braking problem with the Prius and Toyota says there is not a problem. Turns out that 147,000 Toyota hybrids might have an ABS issue. So Toyota recalls all of those cars. Rumors come out that Corolla owners are having power steering problems. Toyota denies that there is a problem. Now we hear they may recall the Corolla and are working with the government on the investigation.
Do you not see how this is news worthy? The company witht he most respect for build quality keeps saying there is no problem. Then they keep issuing new recalls for the problems they said do not exist. That is news worthy.
If the press was piling on they would mention that 110,000 Tundras manufactured between 2000 and 2003 are being recalled for excessive corosion on the rear crossmember frame. They would mention the fact that a similar recall was issued for 2005 to 2010 Tundras in October. They would mention that there was also a recall for the drive shaft in Toyota Tundras this year. They would report that 8,000 Camrys are being recalled for brake hose issues. The media could mention that 8,000 2010 Tacomas are being recalled for front drive shaft issues. They would mention the fact that the issues that lead to the Tacoma recall have been reported since 2007. They would mention that 27,000 Toyotas were recalled last year for not having the proper load carrying capacity modification labels. They would mention that in January of 2009 Toyota recalled 1.3 million cars for a defect that could cause fires in colisions.
I think, given the many things they could talk about, they are being pretty nice to Toyota at this point.
I still think Toyota makes a car that is better than 90% of what is out there. My friend's Range Rover spent 90 business days in the shop last year. My other friend's Mini had issues that kept it in the shop for nearly 45 days total (including weekends).
All of that is beside the point. My main point was that American cars are better than people give them credit for. Some are even more dependable than names like Toyota, BMW, and Mercedees. For some reason people don't want to believe what is the new reality.
Everybody wants to believe when Toyota says they are sorry and will try harder. Nobody believed it when GM ran ads on national TV and in dozens of magazines saying the same thing. People refuse to believe it despite the fact that the Cadillac CTS is one of Car and Driver's top ten three years running. They refuse to believe it when studies show that Buick owners have fewer complaints than other owners.
If all American car's are so bad why is Buick the most sought after car in China? They could easily buy a car from Japan or Korea. Yet the well heeled still want a Buick. Why is it that Top Gear is praising the CTS-V, Corvette z06, and Challenger SRT if all American cars are bad cars? It is amazing that American cars are gaining respect everywhere but at home.
[edit on 18-2-2010 by MikeNice81]
[edit on 18-2-2010 by MikeNice81]
reply posted on 19-2-2010 @ 12:41 PM by emeraldzeus
reply to post by MikeNice81
Not disputing what you're saying at all.....I'm just going on my own experience.
American cars I've owned were pieces of crap.
Japanese cars I've owned have been reliable.
No amount of news coverage will change my experiences. Does that mean I'll NEVER buy American again? No. It just means I want to hear REAL reports from REAL Americans on certain makes and models before I dish out $20,000 to $30,000 (or more) on a car that I plan to keep for many years.
Unlike most people, when I shop for a car, I talk to people I know. I know who they are, they aren't "faceless", and their opinions matter to me. I know they won't lie. I canvass as many friends and family as I can, and I listen for repeating statements, repeating models and makes, and above average adjectives when those people describe their vehicles. The love affair that Americans have with their cars is not a dying quality....it's still there, but very few Americans have vehicles that ignite that passion any more, for one reason or another. These days, they're just happy they can save $10 a month at the gas pump, not be stranded because some faulty engine or electronic part decided to blow, and have the peace of mind that the body will protect them if they should get into an accident.
To me, those are pretty low standards that should be a given with ANY vehicle, and it speaks worlds about what we've been groomed to accept.
1. I want a car that runs on free energy, whether it be solar, wind, or an electric generator (which still requires some outside power, but certainly not a $50 fill-up at the gas pump every week). Until the oil companies and the corporations get out of the government that has their thumb on our car makers, I don't see that happening any time soon....at least not in a way that will be affordable to the average American.
2. I want my cars to be designed, made, and assembled 100% COMPLETELY by Americans.....period. Not one single component made overseas.
3. I don't want to have to pay more than $8,000 for a high end vehicle. No reason on this green earth why we can't have that. But the unions need to get out, the CEO's need to put the good of the country ahead of their fortunes, and Americans need to come together and provide for the country. The battles are always between the CEO's and the workers, or the CEO's and the government. The American public is always caught in the middle.
4. Car dealerships need to be completely phased out. There's no need for them. Cut out the middle men, and we all will benefit!! One flat price for every American....period. No haggle. Who cares how nice the show room looks? I don't. Especially if the price of that fancy showroom is being rolled into the price of my new car. One simple office and a warehouse. No fancy tiles, desks, and brochures, no spacious luxury, no haggling, just simple honest business again. Don't make me pay more for your advertising....just let the product speak for itself! GIVE a few thousand cars away to the public and let THEM advertise through their own experiences. Enough of the fluff.
5. Let Americans get the best deals on cars....let the foreigners pay the premium prices. We're suppose to take care of our own, but the only getting taken care of are the corporations.
6. Authorized repair shops should be flat rates...period. It's absurd that some of these folks are making $30 - $100 or more an hour, and then charging, on top of that, 2 to 3 times more, (or even more in some cases), for the replacement part than what it is worth....are you freakin' kidding me??? The strong sense of integrity, values and morals has all but disappeared in our country.
7. Taxes play a major role in this too, so I'm not letting the government off this one. Taxes drive up the cost of everything, and we're being taxed on the same dollar a million different ways, every time it exchanges hands.
Taxed on the income that we use to buy the car. Taxed on the car when we buy it. Forced to buy insurance, which is never given back to us if we don't use it (which is a criminal racket, in and of itself). Forced to buy tags and renew them every year. Forced to pay for tags/taxes on the vehicles every year, depending on what state you live in. Force to pay for inspections every year. Then there's the inflated interest we pay on the loan we're forced to take out to pay for the vehicle, because the price is so inflated from everything else, that we can't afford to pay cash. The banks reel it in.
Then if, God forbid, you should default on your loan somewhere down the line, even if you've only got a 1,000 or more dollars to go, they reclaim your vehicle and auction it to the highest bidder with no sharing of the profits to the person who has been working hard to pay it off for so many years....if that's not robbery, I don't know what is. I've watched this happen a few times, and it's sickening to me, and even more so in the housing market, because it's no different. It's a carnivorous buffet, with the American people as the main course.
So there are my feelings on the matter. Am I disgusted that a foreign car has given me more security than an American made car? You betcha! But I wish it weren't that way. If they are making improvements, then great. I'll be watching....and listening. But I've been burned far too many times to easily part with my money again.
Not disputing what you're saying at all.....I'm just going on my own experience.
American cars I've owned were pieces of crap.
Japanese cars I've owned have been reliable.
No amount of news coverage will change my experiences. Does that mean I'll NEVER buy American again? No. It just means I want to hear REAL reports from REAL Americans on certain makes and models before I dish out $20,000 to $30,000 (or more) on a car that I plan to keep for many years.
Unlike most people, when I shop for a car, I talk to people I know. I know who they are, they aren't "faceless", and their opinions matter to me. I know they won't lie. I canvass as many friends and family as I can, and I listen for repeating statements, repeating models and makes, and above average adjectives when those people describe their vehicles. The love affair that Americans have with their cars is not a dying quality....it's still there, but very few Americans have vehicles that ignite that passion any more, for one reason or another. These days, they're just happy they can save $10 a month at the gas pump, not be stranded because some faulty engine or electronic part decided to blow, and have the peace of mind that the body will protect them if they should get into an accident.
To me, those are pretty low standards that should be a given with ANY vehicle, and it speaks worlds about what we've been groomed to accept.
1. I want a car that runs on free energy, whether it be solar, wind, or an electric generator (which still requires some outside power, but certainly not a $50 fill-up at the gas pump every week). Until the oil companies and the corporations get out of the government that has their thumb on our car makers, I don't see that happening any time soon....at least not in a way that will be affordable to the average American.
2. I want my cars to be designed, made, and assembled 100% COMPLETELY by Americans.....period. Not one single component made overseas.
3. I don't want to have to pay more than $8,000 for a high end vehicle. No reason on this green earth why we can't have that. But the unions need to get out, the CEO's need to put the good of the country ahead of their fortunes, and Americans need to come together and provide for the country. The battles are always between the CEO's and the workers, or the CEO's and the government. The American public is always caught in the middle.
4. Car dealerships need to be completely phased out. There's no need for them. Cut out the middle men, and we all will benefit!! One flat price for every American....period. No haggle. Who cares how nice the show room looks? I don't. Especially if the price of that fancy showroom is being rolled into the price of my new car. One simple office and a warehouse. No fancy tiles, desks, and brochures, no spacious luxury, no haggling, just simple honest business again. Don't make me pay more for your advertising....just let the product speak for itself! GIVE a few thousand cars away to the public and let THEM advertise through their own experiences. Enough of the fluff.
5. Let Americans get the best deals on cars....let the foreigners pay the premium prices. We're suppose to take care of our own, but the only getting taken care of are the corporations.
6. Authorized repair shops should be flat rates...period. It's absurd that some of these folks are making $30 - $100 or more an hour, and then charging, on top of that, 2 to 3 times more, (or even more in some cases), for the replacement part than what it is worth....are you freakin' kidding me??? The strong sense of integrity, values and morals has all but disappeared in our country.
7. Taxes play a major role in this too, so I'm not letting the government off this one. Taxes drive up the cost of everything, and we're being taxed on the same dollar a million different ways, every time it exchanges hands.
Taxed on the income that we use to buy the car. Taxed on the car when we buy it. Forced to buy insurance, which is never given back to us if we don't use it (which is a criminal racket, in and of itself). Forced to buy tags and renew them every year. Forced to pay for tags/taxes on the vehicles every year, depending on what state you live in. Force to pay for inspections every year. Then there's the inflated interest we pay on the loan we're forced to take out to pay for the vehicle, because the price is so inflated from everything else, that we can't afford to pay cash. The banks reel it in.
Then if, God forbid, you should default on your loan somewhere down the line, even if you've only got a 1,000 or more dollars to go, they reclaim your vehicle and auction it to the highest bidder with no sharing of the profits to the person who has been working hard to pay it off for so many years....if that's not robbery, I don't know what is. I've watched this happen a few times, and it's sickening to me, and even more so in the housing market, because it's no different. It's a carnivorous buffet, with the American people as the main course.
So there are my feelings on the matter. Am I disgusted that a foreign car has given me more security than an American made car? You betcha! But I wish it weren't that way. If they are making improvements, then great. I'll be watching....and listening. But I've been burned far too many times to easily part with my money again.
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