God Vs. Satan: Satan 1 - God 0, page 1

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Topic started on 7-2-2010 @ 05:05 PM by Ghost in the Machine

Greetings.

Upon pondering biblical creation, I came across a thought which wouldnt pass. If Satan was able to do the impossible and bring sin into heaven. Does that mean that there is a chance that he may do the impossible again and defeat God at his own game?

And yes, I've heard that arguement before about God needing an opposition to balance everything out or that Satan's fate is already set becuase it says so in the bible. But yet the bible does not seem to give an explaination about how sin was able to enter such a perfect place like heaven.

Happy Posting

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 05:09 PM by Snarf

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

in order to have faith in God, you have to have faith that God is the creator of all logic.

You do not possess the ability to comprehend how things like this work.

If thats not a good enough explanation for you - then you simply won't believe.

If you don't want to believe in God, fine.

But don't tell others that it's impossible simply because YOU can't figure it out

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 05:17 PM by The Light Bringer

I have always thought it was possible for the serpent to overcome his maker. Especially considering he has no rules about how he goes about working his will.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 05:20 PM by halfoldman

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

The fact is that until Revelations (with two disputed mentions), the serpent in Genesis is nothing but a snake.
According to that faith "Heaven" is made out of robotic angels.
Only humans have the freedom of thought and speech (which God apparently creates, and then censors and bans).
In fact, if you want to see the Christian devil - look in the mirror!

[edit on 7-2-2010 by halfoldman]

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 05:22 PM by IncrementEthicalAnarchy

I think the devil is bad but gawd created him soh tere was balance. - typical christian view.

the devil is a metaphor for the fight between good (god) and evil (satan) inside yourself.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 05:23 PM by Ghost in the Machine

reply to post by Snarf

It wouldnt be the first time that people have disobeyed God. And it does clearly states in Revelations 21: 27 that nothing unclean can enter heaven.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 05:24 PM by muzzleflash

No Satan is a liar, he is actually not bringing sin.

Its a deception. He's actually working "for God".

In reality it is probably a good thing. Otherwise God wouldn't have created it.

Of course, I don't mean this literally, to me its more of a play on words. Each word has a definition and I am basing my statements on a loophole within those definitions.

[edit on 7-2-2010 by muzzleflash]

[edit on 7-2-2010 by muzzleflash]

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 05:25 PM by Ghost in the Machine

reply to post by IncrementEthicalAnarchy

Thank you for repeating what I've already stated.

And yes, I've heard that arguement before about God needing an opposition to balance everything out or that Satan's fate is already set becuase it says so in the bible.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 05:47 PM by Epsillion70

Well I see in the OP that the logic surmised of Satan v God etc is from a somewhat anthropomorphic perception and understanding.
Because the idea of a separate and alone all powerful God waging war on its supposed twin opposite does not hold any logic and reason.
To view the understanding that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and all loving God would be a separate identity of an individualistic egoic nature is a contradictory statement.
And then say that a loving God can also be a punishing God because his minions didn't do as they were told is actually oxymoronic to say the least. The idea of punishment and reward are Humanistic belief defininitions as set up by the idea of a separatist ideology in classifications of have and have-nots by the Church and State that never understood the world is actually shared by all in the physical and metaphysical in Oneness throughout the Universe with All That Is.
The idea of Satan and Hell that holds in this reality is thought up by ones mind. There is only Love and a call to love in this world

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 06:01 PM by halfoldman

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

The entity of Lucifer, Satan and so forth gets scant mention in the Bible.
There is no description of a horned Satan - instead it describes Satan as very beautiful (an angel of light).
Actually the fall of Adam was because of women (EVE).
That is then also exactly how women were treated in that faith.
In fact, for most of it they didn't even officially have "souls" to be saved, and even now they occupy secondary roles.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 06:09 PM by Ghost in the Machine

reply to post by halfoldman

All well known facts. Yet how did that contribute to the thread?

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 06:14 PM by Ghost in the Machine

reply to post by Epsillion70

First off, If God did not have any 'human' characteristics then we wouldnt either. As we were made in his image. So I rightly assigned a human nature to him.

Secondly, The battle between good and evil, in all religions, is not illogical. Without war there would be no peace. It happens on earth as it does in heaven.

Also, If you say there is no hell in reality, Nor any acts and rewards, Do you also mean that there are consequences without punishment?

[edit on 7-2-2010 by Ghost in the Machine]

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 07:09 PM by godless

Elaine Paigels is one of the best scholars of the history of the early Christian Church out there today. She has written many fine books on the subject and one of them, The Origins of Satan, would seem to quite topical where this thread is concerned. If any of you are truly interested in the metamorphosis of Satan (or STN in the early Hebraic Torah) from God's "stumbling block" into the embodiment of all evil then I would heartily recommend that you obtain a copy and read all about it. Godless I may be but I find that Christianity is a fascinating subject when you actually know something about it. It doesn't hurt to have actually read the Bible either.

FYI, Ghost In The Machine, the description of the Devil's war in heaven and the casting out of the fallen angels to Earth is not actually contained in the Bible but is part of the Apochrypha, which is a collection of ancient Jewish writings that were considered too controversial to actually become scripture but still have exercised an enormous amount of influence on Judaic and Christian thought over the millenia. It is said that Satan coveted God's glory and gathered about him other sympathetic angels that wanted some of that Glory-Goodness for their bad selves as well! God wouldn't share his glory and things got ugly fast. I dunno, sure sounds like the angels had free will to me. If they were just a bunch of C3PO's they couldn't covet anything.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 07:50 PM by godless

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by Epsillion70

First off, If God did not have any 'human' characteristics then we wouldnt either. As we were made in his image. So I rightly assigned a human nature to him.

Secondly, The battle between good and evil, in all religions, is not illogical. Without war there would be no peace. It happens on earth as it does in heaven.

Also, If you say there is no hell in reality, Nor any acts and rewards, Do you also mean that there are consequences without punishment?

[edit on 7-2-2010 by Ghost in the Machine]

Seriously, how could God know anything about being human? God can't die! He can never fear for his own life or reach an age where he realizes that his remaining time to actually exist is dwindling. God is all powerful so he can never know the frustrations of men and women, like standing in a long line a Walmart when the guy at the cashier wants to pay for everything with a check! Anything he wants is so. God is alone. There are no other Gods that he can hang with and no Godesses for him to caress and to love. God couldn't be more unhuman if he was a Klingon!

FYI again, the "Battle Between GOOD And evil", as well as a Day of Judgement and Punishment were not original Hebraic concepts. They were stolen from Zoroastrianism, the original religious philosophy that postualted that mankind was trapped in a war between a completely good deity and a completely evil one. Of course, in Zoroastrianism, the Good God finally polishes off the Bad God, and then every human that ever lived gets judged as to whether or not they were on the Good God's side or the Bad God's side. The bad people are cast into a lake of fire! Sound familiar? This religion arose in the Levant region alongside of Judaism and still has practitioners today.

Not all religions believe that the human condition can be adequately explained as a Good VS Evil WWF match. Most of your Eastern religions would claim that what you would call evil is actually loss of the True Self to the illusions of the world. They would point to a loss of balance and a concentration of too much Yin or too much Yang. To the Eastern philosophies evil is the result of ignorance and selfishness. The seducer of the evil man is not an evil spirit but rather the man's own blindness to who he or she truly is and an understanding of the true nature of the universe that surrounds us. Gee, I sure hope I'm blowing a few minds tonight!

"Do you also mean that there are consequences without punishment?" Uh, Ghosty baby, I hate to break it to you but punishment would qualify as a "consequence". Perhaps what you meant to say was, "Do you also mean that there are actions without consequences???" And of course he didn't mean that. Physics clearly shows that "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". There are always consequences.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 08:02 PM by halfoldman

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

Wow, so many great contributions since I last checked in your thread!
A male God, with a male demi-god antithesis divides man from the divinity via women!
Of course this is totally co-incidental, and has no relevance at all.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 08:09 PM by JaxonRoberts

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

Well, just another example of the long list of logic bombs that exist in the Bible... Nice catch. Of course the answer is simple: Satan is the creation of the minds of mere mortal men and does not really exist.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 08:27 PM by Jinni

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
Greetings.

If Satan was able to do the impossible

It could not have been 'impossible' if Satan was able to do it! By definition it was perfectly possible then.

The birth of Evil as a result of Satan's actions means it is NOW impossible.

God had it all planned out and he knew what Satan would do from the start. He is the grand architect.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 10:09 PM by Ghost in the Machine

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

Well, just another example of the long list of logic bombs that exist in the Bible... Nice catch. Of course the answer is simple: Satan is the creation of the minds of mere mortal men and does not really exist.

Using that logic, Does that also mean that God does not exist?

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 10:19 PM by SmokeandShadow

Eh...the hypothetical is only as strong as you're perception of spiritual reality. Right not, it looks like a house on a sink hole.

reply posted on 7-2-2010 @ 10:32 PM by JaxonRoberts

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

Not in the Biblical form. It is only human arrogance and ignorance that makes us think that we even have the ability to grasp the concept of the Divine, let alone understand it. Every 'Holy Book' on the planet 'humanizes' the Creator.

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