No Room For Great Pyramid Ramp

Hello ATS Readers,

Consider the image below:



Now, taking the conventional theory of a massive single ramp having been used to raise the blocks to build the Great Pyramid (G1), then where exactly was the ramp placed?

Unlikely to have been from the North due to the steep escarpment.

Unlikely to have been from the East again due to the steep escarpment and also possibly the satellites and eastern cemetery may have hindered. And also, in ancient times the Nile was much closer to the plateau's eastern side - around the area of the Sphinx.

Unlikely to have been from the south since this is where the blocks for G1 were being quarried. Also it seems from geologist, Colin Reader's work, that Khafre's causeway was extant in Khufu's time.

Unlikely to have been from the west since we know early in Khufu's reign (year 5), he commissioned the construction of the western cemetery.

So where did Khufu's ramp go? Thoughts anyone?

Regards,


Scott Creighton

[edit on 5/2/2010 by Scott Creighton]

maby it was built befor the cemertry and then taken down dono but puzzles me lol

reply to post by birdyat101

Hello Birdy,

Thanks for your post.

Birdy: maby it was built befor the cemertry and then taken down...

SC: This is unlikely since Khufu apparently reigned for around 23 years and the Great Pyramid took around 20 years (according to conventional thought). So by no later than year 3 the construction of the Great Pyramid would have begun. Two years later Khufu instructed the building of the western and eastern cemeteries, implying he took down the ramp some 17 years before his pyramid was completed!! Doesn't stack up.




[edit on 5/2/2010 by Scott Creighton]

www.theforgottentechnology.com...

"...Some megaliths could have been set in place by as few as one man. I could build The Great Pyramid of Giza, using my techniques and primitive tools. On a twenty-five year construction schedule, (working forty hours per week at fifty weeks per year, using the input of myself to calculate) I would need a crew of 520 people to move blocks from the main quarry to the site and another 100 to move the blocks on site. For hoisting I need a crew of 120 (40 working and 80 rotating). My crew can raise 7000 lb. 100 ft. per minute. I have found the design of the pyramid is functional in it’s own construction. No external ramp is needed."

[edit on 5-2-2010 by Romans 10:9]

[edit on 5-2-2010 by Romans 10:9]

reply to post by Scott Creighton


Actually, I heard a great episode last year on coast to coast, where a guy figured out that the ramp was built around the pyramid edges, within the pyramid itself.... then the corner pieces were filled in later.

After he published his theory, he was contacted by a French team who had been there mapping the Great Pyramid years earlier, and their findings corroborated with his theory, becuase they found a bunch of "open spaces" they couldn't account for. Those open spaces were the missing ramp, they think.

I wish I could remember the guys' name...maybe someone else can help me out on this.

reply to post by nikiano


yeah i saw that. they went up to the corners on the pyramid that were open and there were no paths from corner to corner and not enough room in each corner to turn the blocks.

so it was pretty much a failure. decent idea but just nothing to support it with. maybe he can re work it and come up wiht a new angle.

So, there was no room for ramps.

You mean, no room for the ramps they've already found the remnants of?

What a freakin joke.

It profits no one to pretend that ramps were not used, or that if they were, they must have been straight.

It's quite obvious that a ramp, in the end, wrapped around the pyramid itself and was constructed right on top of the lower part of the structure.

The remains, as I said, have been found.

The lower part would have required much smaller ramps. These could have been straight and no longer than a hundred feet or so at most.

The lower portion of any pyramid contains the vast majority of the overall number of the stones therein.

Let's not pretend that two and a half million (or fewer) stones had to be dragged up a spiral ramp.

Harte

Here is a link to the person you were looking for. I saw the show as well, but to my knowledge, this theory has not yet been dis-proven. And as far as getting around the corners, didn't he propose that a crane of some sort was stationed on the corner to help make the transfer from one side to the next adjacent side?

Jean Pierre Houdin

reply to post by Harte

Hello Harte,

Thank you for your post.

Harte: It profits no one to pretend that ramps were not used, or that if they were, they must have been straight.

SC: I am, of course, referring to the traditional view of the ramps used i.e. long, straight-on ramps. There are some Egyptologists that STILL hold onto this method. I am showing in my diagram that such a ramp woukd NOT have been possible let alone practical and such a notion should now be consigned to the bin.

Harte: It's quite obvious that a ramp, in the end, wrapped around the pyramid itself and was constructed right on top of the lower part of the structure.

The remains, as I said, have been found.

SC: I'd be grateful to see the hard evidence of this find in any of the Giza pyramids. I am aware of Houdin's theory but as someone already mentioned in this thread, it is not without its problems. If you have hard, unequivocal evidence of the type of ramp used in the Giza pyramids then you should share it.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

[edit on 5/2/2010 by Scott Creighton]

I can see that the INTERNAL RAMP ThEORY will most likely be the dominant 'construction paradigm' over the next couple of decades or so...there is actually some solid internal evidence of this internal ramp within the Khufu pyramid, and if modern escavations within the structure are ever allowed by that Hawass person to continue 'freely' exploring the structure, we should see a lot more evidence of a very clever use of internal ramping - which would have made efficient use of the actual building material that was to become eventually part of the structure within the monument itself.

Certainly, we cannot see any hard evidence of much 'external ramping' which would clearly have meant more solid material would be needed to build a massively long external ramp than the actual pyramid ever used in the total material used eventually to put the thing together.

Ramp or no ramp...the real question is did the ancient builders at the Giza Plateau ever use the various forms of gravitational manipulation (or clever levering) e.g. such as the SINGLE man (in fact, one very sickly and smallish person, who weighed barely 100 pounds soaking wet - Mr Edward Leedskalnin) who was responsibile for placing on top of one another all the 1 and 2 tonne stones for his Coral Castle Monument in south Florida, apparently without any human assistance...and he only worked at night !

Edward Leedskalnin said he could see beads of light on objects that he said were the physical presence of Nature's Magnetism (whatever he meant by that).

He explained that modern terran scientists have only a partial knowledge of atomic structure and electricity.

He stated that all forms of existence are made up of three components, North and South poles and neutral particles of matter.

Edward wrote five books including one called Magnetic Current which he published in 1945. The booklet states that the Laws of Magnetism and Electricity enabled him to build Coral Castle.

He even claimed to have "re-discovered the laws of weight, measurement, and leverage." Edward said these laws "involved the relationship of the Earth to celestial alignments."

Sound familar? In fact the 3 major Pyramids at Giza DO line up with the Belt of Orion's config as well as the Nile (in BCE 6,000-4,000) lining up with the pattern of the visible portion of the socalled Milky Way above their heads - so he might be on to something.

Beyond this Ed did not say all that much about his methodology. But I assume that carefully placed levers and manipulation of weight was involved as well...and the Egyptians must have had a great deal of long-experience (maybe including centuries of trial and error, to judge from some of their other attempts at pyramid building ...)

Originally posted by Scott Creighton

Harte: It's quite obvious that a ramp, in the end, wrapped around the pyramid itself and was constructed right on top of the lower part of the structure.

The remains, as I said, have been found.

SC: I'd be grateful to see the hard evidence of this find in any of the Giza pyramids. I am aware of Houdin's theory but as someone already mentioned in this thread, it is not without its problems. If you have hard, unequivocal evidence of the type of ramp used in the Giza pyramids then you should share it.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Unequivocal?

In archaeology, such a thing almost always never exists, as you know.

Where is the "unequivocal" evidence for all the fringe speculation you've spewed all over ATS in your time here?

Anyway:

III. 2. The Discovery of the Ramp.
During the work of relocating the Sound and Light Show cables at Giza, we were able to excavate their route beginning at the Southwest of the Great Pyramid.

Also at this time we started the re-excavation of the cemetery GIS and the restoration of the tombs there.

As was discussed above the only possible side for the erection of the ramp during the reign of Khufu was the South side. The ramp was constructed of limestone chips, gypsum, and a calcareous clay called Tafla. Due to the hardiness of the construction materials what remains of the ramp, after the Egyptians removed it to build the tombs of GIS, should still exist on the South side.

We started to remove sand for the erection of the cables North of the paved road and South of the pyramid. During the work we found a big part of the ramp used to transport the stones from the quarry to the pyramid base. This part of the ramp consisted of two walls built of stone rubble and mixed with Tafla. The area in between was filled with sand and gypsum forming the bulk of the ramp.

1. The West Wall:
The length of this wall is 1.40 centimeters, built of a stone rubble and Tafla.

The length is 60 centimeters. Mud was used to consolidate the stones.

2. The Eastern Wall
It is located to the East of the West wall about 1.50 centimeters. The width is 1.45 centimeters and it is also built of stone rubble.

On the South side of the paved road, South of Khufu's pyramid, we excavated down about 2.50 meters and found another part of the ramp. This part is in line with the Eastern and Western wall and is of similar construction. This discovery proves that the ramp led from the quarry to the Southwest comer of the pyramid and was made of stone rubble and Tafla.(see plans 2,3) The ramp rises to about 30 meters above the pyramid's base at its Southwest comer. The ramp would have leaned against the pyramid's faces as they rose. Somewhat like accretion layers wrapped around the pyramid with a roadway on top. The weight of this ramp is borne by the ground around the pyramid. Traffic could move along the top of this structure as both pyramid and ramp rose in tandem. The top of the pyramid could be reached with only one and one quarter turns. The slope would rise with each turn from a reasonable 65 degrees, for the first section, to as much as 18 degrees for the last climb to the apex. 19

Source: Guardians website

There are precedents for the ramp theory.... the remnants are found in several locations. In fact the ramp theory is popular as an outcome of the clear evidence.

The Meidum Pyramid (false pyramid) and Pyramid of Senusret used ramps in the construction.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7e1eba31596b.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c498589bbb1b.jpg[/atsimg]

Interior, spiral, step and linear ramps were used and the evidence of such lingers still. Naturally, there is still discussion in archaeology about the exact details. These pyramids are over 4000 years old and have been neglected and covered and uncovered by the shifting sands. The hallmark of a good builder is leaving the area clean and presentable when the job is done. It's to be expected that the Egyptians were clever enough to build the pyramids and equally able to remove unsightly ramps. It'd be pretty dumb to leave these monuments obscured by the methods of construction...Egyptians weren't dumb.

Science relies on evidence to support the most plausible theories. In the case of the pyramids, evidence of ramps supports theories that ramps were used

Originally posted by Scott Creighton

So where did Khufu's ramp go? Thoughts anyone?

Hi Scott, really interesting view and questions.

Here are mine thoughts about those ramp theories.

I really think that deep down in their hearts most Egyptologists realize very well that the use of ramps, whether they were constructed outside or inside the pyramid or even a combination of them during building the Giza pyramids and especially the Great pyramid holds no grounds whatsoever, they must realize themselves very well that dragging all those stones inclusive the very big ones uphill and especially even around those corners is really impracticable.

Look for instance what they say themselves about it.

What we don't know is exactly how it was built, a question that has been debated for millennia. The earliest recorded theory was put forward by the Greek historian Herodotus, who visited Egypt around 450 B.C., when the pyramid was already 2,000 years old. He mentions "machines" used to raise the blocks and this is usually taken to mean cranes. Three hundred years later, Diodorus of Sicily wrote, "The construction was effected by mounds" (ramps).

Modern scholars have favored these two original theories, but deep in their hearts, they know that neither one is correct. A radical new one, however, may provide the solution. If correct, it would demonstrate a level of planning by Egyptian architects and engineers far greater than anything ever imagined before.

www.archaeology.org...

But perhaps their hope on a radical new theory is fulfilled with the internal ramp theory of the French architect, Jean-Pierre Houdin of which I am shore of you are familiar with.

Regarding that, you could perhaps find this thread interesting.

“possible explanation of building the great pyramid in giza- excellent documentation”

www.abovetopsecret.com...

But here are the problems I have about using ramps.

Suppose that the Egyptians where able to drag those blocks on wooden runners or sleds over I assume a paved ramp uphill by manner of pushing and pulling with ropes at the same time.

That alone would have been a wonder.

But suppose they were even capable of doing that, than the million dollar question is, how could they have transported those blocks and sorely those huge big ones around the corners of these ramps?
You cannot pull them anymore in my opinion, so the only option left, is pushing.
And try to imagine how they must have done that all without the use of pulleys.

That would have been a miracle.

Therefore I am convinced that it is impossible that ramps where used for that all.

My two Euro-cents

[edit on 5/2/10 by spacevisitor]

Originally posted by spacevisitor

But suppose they were even capable of doing that, than the million dollar question is, how could they have transported those blocks and sorely those huge big ones around the corners of these ramps?
You cannot pull them anymore in my opinion, so the only option left, is pushing.
And try to imagine how they must have done that all without the use of pulleys.

That would have been a miracle.

Therefore I am convinced that it is impossible that ramps where used for that all.

Space,

You already know, because I've told you, that the stones near and at the top of the GP are a good deal smaller than those in the middle or near the bottom.

Why do you suppose this is so?

Also, not that many stones would need to be lifted via a ramp to the highest reaches, thus the job became much easier as the GP got higher.

The lower one-third of the GP contains more than half of the volume of the structure. Stones could have been dragged up from all sides in the traditional "straight ramp" way with no problem at all for this part of the structure.

In fact, once the first layer was down, many succeeding layers could have been erected to 75% or so of being finished (each layer - not the whole structure) without any (external) ramp at all. Small, one-level ramps could account for a great deal of the layers as there would be enough room to constuct partial layers in varying positions on top of the preceding layer. IOW, small ramps on top of the construction to move stone up from the lower levels.

At any rate, your belief that this is impossible is blind faith arrogance. The fact is, it is certainly not impossible.

You are aware, right, that a one-ton piece of limestone is only about 2.5 ft by 2 ft by 3 ft?

Harte




[edit on 2/5/2010 by Harte]

reply to post by spacevisitor
So how do you think the pyramids were built? Not the other hundred+ across Egypt and Sudan....just the Giza Pyramids. I'm curious

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Therefore I am convinced that it is impossible that ramps where used for that all.

Space,
You already know, because I've told you, that the stones near and at the top of the GP are a good deal smaller than those in the middle or near the bottom.
Why do you suppose this is so?

Also, not that many stones would need to be lifted via a ramp to the highest reaches, thus the job became much easier as the GP got higher.

Hi Harte, I think we always will have our differences in opinions about this subject just as we have also regarding certain other subjects.
But because of your saying why do I suppose this is so, I wonder what you think about this.

About your saying “not that many stones”, and how then were they lifted to the highest reaches, thus the job became much easier as the GP got higher” it still would be a quite impressive number right so how do you think then that they were lifted because to lift 1.5 to 4 tons stones each requires a lot of back and muscle power and very strong apparatus up there, and do not forget that the higher they came the less room for maneuvering they had.

Originally posted by Harte
The lower one-third of the GP contains more than half of the volume of the structure. Stones could have been dragged up from all sides in the traditional "straight ramp" way with no problem at all for this part of the structure.

In fact, once the first layer was down, many succeeding layers could have been erected to 75% or so of being finished (each layer - not the whole structure) without any (external) ramp at all. Small, one-level ramps could account for a great deal of the layers as there would be enough room to construct partial layers in varying positions on top of the preceding layer. IOW, small ramps on top of the construction to move stone up from the lower levels.

Is the drawing in this image a bit what by you mean above, except as you said from all sides?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6aca74325d37.gif[/atsimg]

Then the following.

The great pyramid is about 480 feet [145 metre] high, so the height of the lower one-third would still be some 160 feet [48 metre] high.

So after finishing the lower one-third of the GP with traditional "straight ramps", the rest as you said they used small one-level ramps as one can see in the image, but then comes another in my opinion really big problem.

Because the blocks used for the King's Chamber and relieving chambers are placed higher than the lower one-third of the GP and weighing as much as 60-80 tons each, so how do you think they dragged them uphill on those small one-level ramps and how were they able to maneuvering those big ones around the corner and after that, dragging them to their final position?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b8bd7f70ae5b.gif[/atsimg]

Because these blocks are placed around the centre, there is during maneuvering them not enough room for dragging them to the centre in my opinion, so how then did they do that?

The same counts for all those outer casing stones weighing up to 15 tons.

Originally posted by Harte
At any rate, your belief that this is impossible is blind faith arrogance.

Here we go again, when you can attack the data attack the poster, it's easier.
Very nice.

Originally posted by Harte
The fact is, it is certainly not impossible.

The fact is Harte that you and all those Egyptologist cannot provide the required evidence that would proof without a doubt that ramps where used.
It are all nothing more than assumptions.

Originally posted by Harte
You are aware, right, that a one-ton piece of limestone is only about 2.5 ft by 2 ft by 3 ft?

I must honestly say I was a bit surprised by that, but you must consider that it still are blocks from about 1.5 to 4 tons each and as most sources agree, the total number of blocks used in the construction of the Great Pyramid is 2.3 million so you speak if I am right about roughly 2.200.000 core blocks they had to drag up there.

Perhaps you also remember PhotonEffect’s post in the thread “Forbidden Egyptology” where some guys (at least 30 of 'em) did a attempt to pull in this case a 25 ton block of stone.

And using all the effort and power they had they where able to move that stone just some 20 feet, and that horizontally.

So in the light of that attempt, one must see how extreme difficult it would be to drag and lift some 2.200.000 core blocks stones weighing up to 1.5 to 4 tons each and also the blocks used for the King's Chamber and relieving chambers weighing as much as 60-80 tons each and all those outer casing stones weighing up to 15 tons each up hill and maneuvering them also to their final position.

Do you still think they were capable of doing that on those ramps?

Originally posted by PhotonEffect
Hey, here's some guys (at least 30 of 'em) trying to pull a 25 ton block of stone, hehe...

(I've included brief captions to each picture which are taken from the NOVA site- italicized portion)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b1bcd6ab5b78.jpg[/atsimg]

Modern-day builders would employ a crane and a flatbed truck to move a heavy stone like this one. But an ancient Egyptian relief painting shows long lines of men pulling a monumental stone across land. The NOVA team, .... , rely heavily on the same energy the pharaoh's engineers employed: the collective power of human muscle.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/808b4139e386.jpg[/atsimg]

To reduce drag and ease movement, a team member smears animal fat onto a wooden runner in the track along which workers will pull the 25-ton stone. Ancient Egyptians might have used slick wet clay to accomplish the same thing.
..........
Now here's the fun part...hehe.. there are about 32 (give or take that can be seen in the picture) men pulling those ropes...
..........

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4b673b113dbc.jpg[/atsimg]

At first the ropes stretch, and the stone refuses to move. Then stonemason Roger Hopkins climbs atop the stone and chants "God is great!" in Arabic to coordinate the timing of the pulls and to inspire the men. Exerting a tremendous effort, the men drag the stone a mere 20 feet.

Man that looks tough...So it took shouts of "God is great!" to get the 30 or so men to pull this stone only 20 feet. Of course we all know the Egyptians weren't Muslim back then. So what was their motivational force?

Also there are a couple of details missing which have not been provided by the NOVA team:

-They didn't mention how many men were actually used.

-They don't mention how long it actually took to move that stone.

-Although they mention they barely moved it 20 feet, they don't say if that was the total distance that was attempted...

Now multiply that one stone by a few million. 2, 5, 10, 25, 75 ,100 tons....whatever

www.pbs.org...

So why do you say then that my belief that this is impossible is blind faith arrogance?



[edit on 6/2/10 by spacevisitor]

reply to post by Scott Creighton


They either didn't use a ramp but used a completely different method (which i think is so) or else, if they did in fact use a huge, gradually inclined ramp, then i would imagine it would have been a relatively narrow spiral shaped ramp, curling around the pyramid build.

i'd like everyone to view the attached animation as well as the video that follows and consider the implications of these concepts.

I would have to say that Houdin's theory of internal spiraling ramps is the best one of its kind given the evidence, but that one is not without it's problems too. Mainly the with of those corridors going up and around would have allowed for only one-way traffic... It would've taken time, too, once the stone reached a corner and needed to be rotated and set ascend the next part of the ramp. This would create quite a bottleneck and would've certainly slowed the process of getting those stones up to the next intended layer...

Also, if we're to consider that the GP did at one point adorn a huge capstone, then there is no way it would've fit through Houdin's proposed tunneling ramp system...

Now we could also consider, which most often it seems like it's not, that Herodotus' account of the 'ramp' that was used...

He says:

The construction of the causeway for the transport of the stones occupied ten years, which was exclusive of the time spent in levelling the hill on which the Pyramids stand, and in making the subterranean chambers intended for the tomb. The building of the pyramid itself occupied twenty years.

www.sacred-texts.com...

I find his accounts of the duration of each segment of the GP to be worth noting too, but that's a whole other discussion...

So, would it have made sense for the AE's to use Khufus causeway as a ramp?

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by spacevisitor

 

So how do you think the pyramids were built? Not the other hundred+ across Egypt and Sudan....just the Giza Pyramids. I'm curious

Difficult question Kandinsky, but first let me say you this.

I really believe that deep down in their hearts even most Egyptologists themselves don’t know how they were build and sorely not with the tools the Egyptians had to their disposal back then.
Don’t forget that they did not have pulleys or wheels then.

But besides the tools is the size and weight of the blocks and the height they must have been dragged uphill a decisive point [see the post of PhotonEffect ] and especially for the big ones because of the lack of enough space for dragging them over those ramps and especially to getting them around those corners and maneuvering them after that into their final position.

And then we did not talk even about how they transported them all from these quarries to the buildingsite.

So I think that it is very possible that they where build by the use of some for the time being unknown or withhold to us technology which is not impossible because of the following.

I assume you know the story of CORAL CASTLE of Ed Leedskalnin.
So what kind of technology could he have used for what he has done?

Working alone at night, Leedskalnin, who weighed less than 100 lb (45 kg), eventually quarried and sculpted over 1,100 short tons (1,000 t) of coral into a monument that would later be known as the Coral Castle.

Leedskalnin gave polite, but cryptic answers to visitors' questions regarding his construction methods, which to this day remain a mystery. In spite of his private nature, he eventually opened his monument to the public, offering tours for 10 cents. He was a surprisingly accommodating host, even cooking hot dogs for visiting children in a pressure cooker of his own invention.

This building was originally located in Florida City in the 1920s; then in the mid 1930s Leedskalnin moved it single-handedly to its present location on a 10-acre (4.0 ha) site near Homestead, Florida. In December 1951, he left a note on his front gate which read "Going to the Hospital", and rode a bus to Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami. He died three days later of malnutrition due to stomach cancer, at the age of 64.

en.wikipedia.org...