If you are not a Native American, you're an 'Anchor Baby' (the decendent of an illegal alien)!

I just wonder.

There are some that say the American Indian may have had the Vikings intermingle with them.

Where did the American Indian come from? Were they always here. Did they migrate.

Also, even though they did not have ownership of land per se, did they not have boundaries between the different tribes. Or do you think that maybe they enforced their borders, maybe?

Logical questions to a illogical premise.

Conquering land is not the same as immigrating into it due to the betrayal of the government.

European Americans conquered the land. That makes it theirs. Thats how territory works.

Otherwise everyone would still be living in the same place we all started.

Taking other peoples land is part of life as a territorial species. You need land to grow and feed your population. If the other people cant defend their land they lose it QQ.

Its not the fault of white people they were the best at it, if American indians or whatever could have conquered europe they certainly would have. Many different races have tried to conquer europe. They just couldn't.

You think the native americans all lived in peace and harmony before? Think again, they killed each other and took eachothers land. Just because someone else took their land you can't bitch and call it unfair.

Originally posted by junglejake

However, let's look at an extreme example. Most nations, when you enter them, require a visa so they can know your criminal background as well as your country of origin. The argument here seems to be that Mexicans who come across the United States' border without announcement are as legal as the Europeans who came to this land the same way.

So lets say there's a gentleman who, in Canada, has raped 46 children under the age of 12. He has been tried and convicted, and there is no doubt he's raped those 46 kids. To avoid sentencing, he comes to the US by sneaking over the border without being announced, i.e. without a visa. Now we have this pedophile rapist in the U.S., and the INS wants to deport him. But, there's no such thing as an illegal alien. He came from another nation, but what are borders? Everyone has the right to live wherever they want! And so this guy moves next door to you. You and your kids.

The old "be afraid, be very afraid" ploy eh? Sorry but it seems like this scenario is meant only to make us afraid. I've had enough fear, we get it constantly. Used to be we knew our neighbors in America, now this abject fear of other people seems to have taken over. No one associates with anyone because we're afraid they're serial killers and rapists. And illegals get the worst of this stereotyping.

No one ever puts themselves in the shoes of a struggling immigrant who comes to America illegally trying to make money to send back to their families or just to survive. Yes, most of them are just ordinary folks.

Of course there are some running from the law, of course there will be some criminals. I find it appalling though that many on ATS stereotype and rag on illegal immigrants as if they were subhuman scum. Some people here seem so seething with venom over the issue and that's why they should feel the sting of their hypocrisy when they read the OP. They themselves are descendants of illegal immigrants, illegal immigrants who did far worse things than the ones in our country are doing now.

At the end of the day these borders can only do so much and apparently they are fueling the fires of ignorance. When something stops being a benefit it should be removed from society. There are ways of having law and justice without borders but that would require humans to come together and form a world government something many would rather die than do...

Until we grow up as a species issues like immigration will be argued over ad nauseum.

'Don't believe me, go ask any Aztec... Oh wait, you can't....'

The Aztecs used to sacrifice thousands of their own people everyday, and eat their hearts. Many of the tribes joined up with Cortez to overthrow them.

Educate yourself.

reply to post by JPhish


You are right... but you are soooo wrong. Maybe they aren't paying taxes, but our ancestors STOLE this land by FORCE, and have been busy RAPING the land ever since... Now you think we somehow have the RIGHT to get all pompous and arrogant, like this land is our GOD GIVEN property????

I think not....

So the next time you are whining about the damn 'illegal aliens', I suggest you go look in a mirror, and unless a Native American face is staring back at you, remember that you are the decendant of an 'illegal alien' (none of us were 'invited').

At least part of my ancestors did not come voluntarily.

After the Scottish Jacobite Rebellion The Rebellion/Rising of 1745 ('The Forty-Five') to restore the rightful head of Scotland and England the Stuarts thrones of Scotland and England

Last Jacobite Rebellion ("the Forty-Five"), led by Charles Edward Stuart (the Young Pretender)

After the last Jacobite Rebellion the English transported many of the clan member that supported the Stuarts to the colonies.

Clark Sept Clan Cameron.

We did finely win when we kicked out the British from the US in the War for Independence

reply to post by elaine


Your ancestors paid for that 'RIGHT' with the blood of those who were here for thousands of years before them.... No matter how you dress it up, murder is murder... And in this case, it was murder for elbow room... Europe was getting a little crowded...

I just love some of the revisionist history being slung so far in this thread... But then again, it's hard to admit that you come from murderous stock... And for the record, I'm 3/4 European and 1/4 Native American, and yet I still identify myself as being a decendant of the invaders, not the invaded...

reply to post by brainwrek


Would you settle for a Commandment??? I believe that it would fall under 'Thou shall not kill'...

are you trying to get elected to an Indian band council or something? I think your argument is a bunch of horse pooey. Just because there were natives here before a person with white skin does not mean this country should be theirs.
This is one planet, not several little countries by birth right crap. We are humans and there should be no borders.
You seem to insinuate that white men are evil or something and just turn everything to trash. I do not agree with that crap either. Your idea of trash is my idea of a 3 hour flight to the west coast or the comforts of driving on a smooth highway.
There are still plenty of places on this planet where you can go live with the sticks and gerbils if you don't like it.

Why didn't the Native Americans multiply to the tune over over 300 mill then? Why is it that those with European descent have populated most of the western world displacing natives? It is simply because the races are not just different skin colors from environmental influence etc, each race is more like a different species and not so alike as most have thought in the past. Where does the almost 10% diff in race genetics come from? Perhaps this 10% difference gives the white man an advantage somehow and what is occurring in the world is just nature.

Before you flame me for being racist, I am not. I have Cherokee blood in me 3 generations back. Most of us are mutts now anyhow. I have Scottish, Dutch, Cherokee, German, Canadian, US and more descendants. Wth am I then? huh? I am an earthling.

Oh and an illegal alien is not just some race other than white or native American, that term means an illegal entry into the US without following the rules and it doesnt matter where in the hell you were born. Follow the rules and you are welcome to come to America.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Ok... So... What, there are no criminals?

As I said, I used an extreme example.

There's a course of action that takes some time to get into a country. It's applying for a visa. I can, at times, take a couple of months. Who can't wait a couple of months to get into a country?

Two categories come to mind. Political refugees and criminals. In the case of political refugees, unfortunately, before they try to get into the nation their fate has been decided. This was seen in WWII when the US sent many Jews to their deaths because we didn't want to deal with them. It was a dark time in our history, and one that, sadly, still exists today. Heck, it will continue to exist. Nations are not friendly to diplomatically inconvenient refugees.

And then we have migrant workers. Folks who work in the U.S., but don't want to pay taxes, so they come to the nation under cover and go back home under cover. Well, politically, they could come here, but it would cost them 20% of their earnings.

Well, the poor deserve that money!

Except those coming to earn that money shouldn't have 20% of their money docked! Except, oh, right, under $17k they could have all that money back! Except, you know, they'd have to register with the government. I guess they should keep the money and be unknown. Unless they're a criminal or terrorist, but the government should know if they are based on their psychic operatives.

Did that last paragraph make your head spin? It made mine spin. When someone comes into a nation, how do we know who they are, what their intentions, etc? That's the purpose of VISAs. It's easy to call fearmongering, but where's the money going and to who?

When someone's documented, a government can see that. When someone's undocumented, the money can go to their family, a drug cartel, or an agency like the free masons. How could we know?

Yet, you say, how dare we question Joe Freemason on his intentions, we should trust him. But to question him is fear mongering. Let him do what he likes with his money until he becomes a citizen.

What you propose is a single world government. Tell me, what's good about that?

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


'You are right... but you are soooo wrong. Maybe they aren't paying taxes, but our ancestors STOLE this land by FORCE, and have been busy RAPING the land ever since... Now you think we somehow have the RIGHT to get all pompous and arrogant, like this land is our GOD GIVEN property????

I think not.... '

Stole the land? That is another way of phrasing conquering. So do you not believe that people should be able to aquire new territories? Everyone should stay where they are forever, no matter what?

Raping the land? Ok there are obviously some effects on the environment from industrialisation, but I think using the word 'raping' is a bit over the top.

basicily you are just saying we conquered the land by force and have used the natural environment to grow food. But you are saying it in a way, and using words, to make this sound like an evil act. When it is not. Life must grow. we can't all just sit around all the time.

And its not god given, but your ancestors died to conquer it. They sweat to grow food and build the infrastructure, for you, their descendants, you could at least be grateful for the comfort you enjoy.


This just sounds like the stuff you have been taught at school, to make you feel guilty about being white, its not healthy and its wrong.


[edit on 27-1-2010 by asd10]

[edit on 27-1-2010 by asd10]

You know what???


If you were born on planet earth, you should be able to live wherever the heck you WANT, as long as you aren't taking someone elses home, and grow your own damn food, and taxes are a joke, and we are ALL equal no matter what.

We ALL have dominion on this planet as children of God, regardless of what some governments and papers say.

the papers are illegal!!!!!!!!!!! :O

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by JPhish

 

You are right... but you are soooo wrong. Maybe they aren't paying taxes, but our ancestors STOLE this land by FORCE, and have been busy RAPING the land ever since... Now you think we somehow have the RIGHT to get all pompous and arrogant, like this land is our GOD GIVEN property????

I think not....

Ok you are getting way out of hand with this garbage. Raping the land? Give me a break. What are we doing with the land right now? Feeding the whole damn planet with the highest food production in the world in case you didnt know. Maybe you should go move away to some territory in upper Canada where you can spout little smoke signals instead of use a cell phone.

'Your ancestors paid for that 'RIGHT' with the blood of those who were here for thousands of years before them.... No matter how you dress it up, murder is murder... And in this case, it was murder for elbow room... Europe was getting a little crowded...

I just love some of the revisionist history being slung so far in this thread... But then again, it's hard to admit that you come from murderous stock... And for the record, I'm 3/4 European and 1/4 Native American, and yet I still identify myself as being a decendant of the invaders, not the invaded... '

I dont think your opinions are very realistic. 'Elbow room' so the living space of 200million people is just elbow room?

The indians were killing eachother anyway, you can't feel guilty for winning a war. America without whites would now be a country of tribal warfare, where you were never safe and your village could be destroyed at any time. Sure I bet you hear about an idyllic peaceful country full of loving natives, but you never heard of scalping?

You have native american blood, so you obviously are going to sympathise with native americans, but you need to educate yourself about white history and world history in general. i am from England, we were invaded many times, but I dont bitch about how the Normans should give back the land they stole. They invaded it and thats that. the strongest won.

whether you like it or not, war and killing is part of history, no matter what race you are.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


oh boo hoo, an appeal to emotion.

we're not putting ourselves in the shoes of these poor illegal immigrants trying to help their families survive?

what a load of rubbish.

i suppose i should put myself in the shoes of a pedophile who is only trying to quench his sexual urges?

any way you slice it it is ILLEGAL.

my parents were immigrants, they came to this country, raised their kids here, learned the language and payed their taxes.

many of the people coming here now are not trying to becoming Americans because they see no point in doing so.

They get free health care, free education for their children, and they don't have to pay a dime for it.

My family has offered to sponsor illegal immigrants to help them get citizenship. That's right, we offered to pay for them so they could become legal citizens. You know what they all said??

THANKS ANYWAY.

i wonder why???

because they have no intentions of becoming Americans.

the proof is in the pudding.

more than 16 billion dollars are sent back to Mexico from our country every year.

care to guess how much of that is sent by illegals not paying taxes?

stealing is stealing.

[edit on 1/27/2010 by JPhish]

reply to post by asd10


Wait!!! Did you hear that, Mexicans?!?!? Don't sneak across the border, boldly march across armed to the teeth and just TAKE the country!!! Because according to asd10 here, THAT'S PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE!!

Let the Conquest Begin!!!!

The point of this thread, since you COMPLETELY missed it, is that when you point your finger at others, three more are pointing back at you... No one is indigenous to the North American continent, thus no one has the 'right' to claim it... When did we lose the message of Lady Liberty...

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

A poem by Emma Lazarus is graven on a tablet within the pedestal on which the Statue of Liberty stands.

You may read it, but somehow I seriously doubt that you'll get it...

[edit on 27-1-2010 by JaxonRoberts]

reply to post by junglejake


I'm sure there are plenty of immigrants who are in dire straights who cannot afford to wait that long for a VISA. I've looked into what it takes to become a citizen if you aren't born here and its absurd (most Americans couldn't pass a civics test) especially if you look at it from the point of view of a desperately poor immigrant.

Of course some of them are criminals who we don't want getting in but last I checked they hadn't blown anything up... those guys typically come in legally and can study how to fly right here in the USA. And they hadn't crashed our entire economy... those guys get billions in bonuses

There is no way of fully boxing off the nation from all illegals entering without massively drastic measures... like, say, digging a moat... I think the best way of stemming their arrival is to make the incentives for coming in legally far outweigh those for coming in illegally. Or we could always set off nukes at the border creating barren wastelands which cannot be traveled safely for hundreds of years.

The reason I mentioned a world government is because I think it is inevitable. Society has begun to break down and is changing. Things like borders are becoming obsolete. The question is will we as a species react to these changes by coming together toward a peaceful world order or will we allow the banks, governments, and our own petty differences create chaos?

The answer to immigration likely lies somewhere between the extremes of sealing ourselves off completely and letting everyone who wants to come in in. For the record I'm not for letting them in illegally and just free flow of people, I'm just responding to the lack of humanity in a lot of the heated posts I've seen here on ATS. We're all people in the end and a solution can't be reached without empathy.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


'Wait!!! Did you hear that, Mexicans?!?!? Don't sneak across the border, boldly march across armed to the teeth and just TAKE the country!!! Because according to asd10 here, THAT'S PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE!!

Let the Conquest Begin!!!!

The point of this thread, since you COMPLETELY missed it, is that when you point your finger at others, three more are pointing back at you... No one is indigenous to the North American continent, thus no one has the 'right' to claim it... When did we lose the message of Lady Liberty... '

If Mexico invades with guns, they will get the s**t kicked out of them. that is part of my point. Instead the government of the US betrays its citizens and allows them to sneak in slowly.
If they did come in and invade the country, that would be natural order, and the land would be theirs, but they could never do it.

You say no one is indigenous so no one should claim it? so all humans should still be in Africa at a tribal level of existence like when we first evolved? Is that what you think is best?

Times move on, and we have became more advanced and spread the globe, some would say thats a positive thing. I for one enjoy the life I have been given by my ancestors blood, sweat and tears, and am grateful for it.

You think the Injuns grew out of the soil in North America?

C'mon, people. Grow up and stop this nonsense.

The Indians — and, yes, I call 'em Indians and I can kick any Indian's ass because I'm more Indian than most of them, anyway — the Indians moved into North America around 10,000 years ago.

Moved In

Came across the Bering Strait from Asia, maybe came from the South Pacific by way of South America and Central America. Either way, they confiscated the property for themselves, right.

The Indians didn't sprout up out of the soil, and they have no more claim on the goddamned property than anybody else, and they spent thousands of years and untold millions of lives fighting over the property, slaughtering each other for hundreds of generations before that evil "white devil" ever set foot on the continent.

So, guess what? When the evil white devil arrived, he did NOTHING that the Injuns hadn't already done to each other. Humans kill each other for property. It's a known fact. Regardless of culture, nobody is above the killing.

Oh, hell, you see these History Channel programs about tribes that mysteriously disappeared centuries ago, leaving no trace of where they went. Hate to break it to you, kids, but they were probably the victims of Indian-on-Indian genocide.

Don't give me that noble red man and regal warrior bullcrap. Indians are human beings, and we all know the atrocities that humans commit against one another. The Indians slaughtered the hell out of each other, drove many tribes to extinction before Europeans ever rowed the boats ashore.

So, the whole premise of the OP is sort of invalid... Nobody owns the earth, we just kill each other for squatting rights. End-of-story.

— Doc Velocity





[edit on 1/27/2010 by Doc Velocity]

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


as for that quote from the Statue of Liberty, I would say that it is outdated and unrealistic in this situation. if you take it literally, you would have to accept everyone in the world who was poor and wanted to come. Thats about 4billion people. What would happen then? America would collapse and be no better for anyone than the countries people came from.
The American indians defended their land, now you should defend yours.