US Openly Accepts Bin Laden Long Dead

reply to post by Dorian Soran


Prey tells who would be this ‘we’ that ‘needs’ proof? The individual suffering from multiple personality disorder or other egocentric dysfunction that imagines they represent some plural entity through self definition or ‘we’ of the Israeli Internet Defense Force?

As far as needing, you need to breath air, you need to drink water, and some might even be arguably even able to convince others you need to look both ways to cross the street as far as wanting visual confirmation of Osama Bin Laden’s death well lets put it this way most of the people who imagine they ‘need’ it as opposed to simply wanting it are the same people who sure didn’t ‘need’ much if any proof of the actions that made him so notorious in the way of needing to see anything properly presented in a proper American court of law, in a proper trial.

So how someone who is really just saying ‘I want’ in a poorly constructed way then attempts to construe the notion of ‘we need’ in that process is a bit dubious and disingenuous to say the least.

Bin Laden would not necessarily be less alive or deader if you saw a body, just as Adolf Hitler wasn’t necessarily less alive or deader after the Soviet’s showed you his body.

From a technical no longer breathing won’t ever again breath standpoint a person is just as dead when they stop breathing permanently whether someone has born witness to that or hasn’t.

One thing is for certain that his actual known and proven activity in the last 7 years (none) is legally eligible to declare someone legally dead in absence of a body, when a person has not written, called, made a public appearance, answered a letter or a call and has no known whereabouts during an expanded period of time.

If you know anything about the costs of fuel in Afghanistan currently being charged to the Taxpayers at 245.00 dollars per gallon and how many tens of thousands of gallons and thousands of man hours you would need to excavate a mountain you would know that 25 million dollar reward wouldn’t even begin to pay for the actual costs when you added up leasing heavy lifting helicopters, fuel, man hours, securing a staging area in hostile enemy terrain and you get to do all this to earn the warm fuzzy distinction of undoing what the CIA went to great pains to do then you would likely rethink the want of employing that bit of fuzzy logic!

So there goes that idea!

Yes people might want to stick to the subject and accurately represent their motivations, intentions as well as actual representative numbers while attempting to tell people what sources of information to read, and how everyone else but oneself on a conspiracy site is really just suffering from relying on deficient sources of information and too gullible to properly espouse the ‘official’ story.

It’s always suspect when people who refer to themselves in the plural telling other people what they need to do does this.

Personally I would just stick to trying to tell others how to spell supercalifragilous means expialadocious as unbeknownst to some attempting to teach other things they have a dubious grasp of truly does sound quite atrocious!














[edit on 27/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by fooks
25 million big ones if you can prove he's dead.


go for it. get the evidence together.

25 million big ones if you can prove he is alive. Go for it.

Originally posted by earthdude

25 million big ones if you can prove he is alive. Go for it.

If you are paying then I will plan a trip east.

Let me know when you have the funds together.

Dorian Soran

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


This is quite obvoiusly a hopeless impass. You KNOW he's dead and I ASSUME he's alive. Agreed?

When I say "we" I mean "we" as the ones partaking in this thread good sir.

"We" need to "know" he is dead BEFORE we make outragous claims in the thread title of "US OPENLY ACCEPTS BIN LADEN LONG DEAD".

The thread title is misleading and "we" are trying to deny ignorance ( last time I checked the motto here - let me check again - yep, thats what it says )

There has NEVER been official acceptance of his death, contrary to the propaganda spewed in the title and most posts of this now going nowhere but in a circular direction thread.

A better thread title would have been "One member on ATS THINKS bin laden is dead according to a most bias mid east non-news source."

If that would have been the title I would have rolled right past this thread, rolling my eye along the way, much like I do when I see threads accusing EVERYONE but muslim terrorists for 9/11.

Thanks for trying to sway me with personal insults and rumours - you at the very least ammused me for a time.

Dorian Soran

Its a hopeless attempt

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Dorian Soran

 

Prey tells who would be this ‘we’ that ‘needs’ proof?

And just for future reference it is "pray tell" not "prey tell"

Unless of course you are planning on "preying" on me for my thoughts in bin laden being alive?

Ok - I'm just messing with you now - sorry.

I think it is best if we just leave it as it is - I know what I know and you know what you know.

I am never going to convince you of the former, and you shall never convince me of the latter without a body.

Dorian Soran

Knowing when to give up a losing battle


[edit on 27-1-2010 by Dorian Soran]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Personally I would just stick to trying to tell others how to spell supercalifragilous means expialadocious as unbeknownst to some attempting to teach other things they have a dubious grasp of truly does sound quite atrocious!

One question.

Why do people always end of typing crap that has nothing to do with the subject or anything I have EVER written on ATS?

I only corrected your spelling of "prey" vs "pray"

To answer your question - sometimes people need to be taught things they didn't even know they needed to learn.

Dorian Soran

The tired doctor

Originally posted by Submarines
If Bin Laden were dead, it would have been one of the biggest newsdays since 9/11. Just because he wasnt mentioned in a speech, means that he isn't as relalvent as Mullah Omar has become.

You kind of contradict yourself here. You are saying that if he died it would be one of the biggest news stories around. Then you say in the next sentence that Mullah Omar is bigger news.

Also, you completely missed the point of the OP. The opinion is that OSB is dead and the U.S. commanders know that he is dead. Yet they are keeping it secret so they can continue an unending war. I believe that if he is dead, which I wouldn't doubt one bit considering his extremely poor health even in 2001, that they are creating another monster now in order to shift the focus.

reply to post by Dorian Soran


Actually no you are in fact preying not praying, though in reality your attempts to dismiss the logic in the thread title is wishful thinking, so is your desire to usurp the ATS Motto to proclaim what you believe is ignorance to be denied.

It is in fact ignorant to assume that Bin Laden is alive based not only on any lack of credible sighting but any credible effort on the part of Government to find him.

If Bin Laden were the Zodiac Killer authorities would in fact be prodding him to prove he is alive by claiming he was dead and creating propaganda aimed at those who would be likely to support him, claiming that he was dead and irrelevant in order to entice him into exposing and revealing himself for the purpose of getting a fix on him and capturing him.

The fact that the U.S. is not actively looking for him, and at the same time wants to pretend that he is alive simply points to the fact that we do know he is dead and are keeping him alive for easily manipulated people who can be motivated and manipulated through the notions that he is alive and actions must be taken to protect ourselves from him. Financially and morally bankrupting actions that are in fact so financially and morally bankrupt that some people have to resort to ‘helping’ other people in ‘doctoring’ ways for ‘their own good’.

You in fact can’t prove Bin Laden is alive, and he was killed in such a way and buried in such a way and place so no one could in fact prove he is dead.

In a kidnapping for ransom the first thing expected of the kidnapper is proof of life. The truth is that the U.S. people are being extorted and compelled to do things based on the premise he is alive.

Very costly things that make no sense if in fact he is dead, and since there is no real proof that he is alive, then the burden of proof should be on the people who are preying off the fears of others to extort them to act in ways that are counterproductive and harmful to them.

So where is your proof that he is alive? You have no proof that he is alive, in fact not only do you want to convince people to fear he is alive for the sake of extortion towards a false and debilitating agenda and mindset you are in fact yourself afraid that he is dead which is why you have to dress up your lack of proof by trying to take on a cutsie wootsie authoritative persona to scoff at those reasoned and logical people who want to see proof of life if they are being asked to give up money and rights and murder people based on the notion that he is alive, when there is absolutely no evidence that he is.

Denying ignorance is not feigning that you aren’t promoting ignorance, and the fact of the matter is you are completely unaware of his whereabouts dead or alive, so in reality your aren’t denying ignorance, but decrying those who aren’t ignorant through a charade that you don’t have one credible piece of proof in order to prove life.
You are simply looking to maintain the status quo in the so called War on Terror at any and all costs.

When you promote your arguments based on some notion of ‘higher authority’ and altruistic reasons then your arguments had in fact better display and quantify that higher authority and show no ulterior motives.

The reality is you have no credible proof that he is alive, so you certainly are no higher an authority than the Original News Piece which simply points to circumstantial evidence, much like the whole 9-11 debacle pointed to nothing but circumstantial evidence, much like people convicted of murder like Scott Peterson were convicted by a jury of their peers based solely on circumstantial evidence.

All the circumstantial evidence points to the probability that Bin Laden is dead and it is both rational and logical conclusion to base an opinion on that circumstantial evidence unless real evidence exists to the contrary so in reality all you are attempting to do is establish yourself as a credible and powerful peer who wishes to negate the fact that everyone else is entitled to form a credible opinion based on circumstantial evidence, and overwhelming preponderance of circumstantial evidence that you have no credible actual evidence to refute.

Which is why you have to bandy about absurd notions of your own qualifications as well as others in attempt to override that circumstantial evidence that points to him clearly being dead in order to further your own agenda which is anything but altruistic based on how you use those words and how you wish to pretend you speak for others who in fact have not empowered you to do so.

You have in fact opened the door to your own credibility in how you attempt to market yourself and how you attempt to demean and dismiss people who actually have opinions of their own based on their interpretation of circumstantial evidence.

Habeas Corpus is the most powerful legal instrument in the free democratic world. It means produce the body; the body can be either living or dead. It is impossible for you to prove he is alive if you can not produce the body that body being Bin Laden’s. However people can be declared dead in absence of a body once a prescribed amount of time has transpired with no proof of life during that time.

If you were Osama Bin Laden’s estranged wife in fact you could petition a court to proclaim him legally dead at this point and likely have a strong enough case to have him legally declared dead.

So there is no confusion all you are trying to do is insist by surreptitious means that your interpretation of circumstantial evidence is more credible simply because you are you, and how you want others to perceive you.

There is absolutely no valid reason for any rational or logical human being to pretend that is not exactly what you are doing.

You have an absolute right to do all those things, but you have no right to do them without being challenged.

I think its time Americans be given the truth and granted the truth, and the truth is if Bin Laden is alive the burden of proof is actually on the people who contend he is alive at this point.

You have failed to prove that he is alive, therefore your attacks on people and new services as being fraudulent, irresponsible or ignorant for pointing out the circumstantial evidence and drawing conclusions from them are in fact inspired by an irresponsible desire on your part to perpetuate the status quo for an agenda of your own, as well as a direct attack and affront to the liberties and freedoms that people of the United States are guaranteed through their Constitution and accepted way of life.

Honestly I consider the people who do such things as that to be far more dangerous than Bin Laden, and while I can’t speak for the other people on this thread, I can say that many people feel and believe that as well, and that number is increasing and not decreasing.

I presume Bin Laden dead and so do millions upon millions of other people, and if you want to prove he is alive, you will need some actual proof to that extent.

Thanks.






[edit on 27/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by Dorian Soran

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Personally I would just stick to trying to tell others how to spell supercalifragilous means expialadocious as unbeknownst to some attempting to teach other things they have a dubious grasp of truly does sound quite atrocious!

One question.

Why do people always end of typing crap that has nothing to do with the subject or anything I have EVER written on ATS?

I only corrected your spelling of "prey" vs "pray"

To answer your question - sometimes people need to be taught things they didn't even know they needed to learn.

Dorian Soran

The tired doctor

Why yes in fact people need to be taught things they didn't even know they needed to learn and hopefully to that extent you are learning some valuable lessons here today.

People typically make two fundamental mistakes in preparing and presenting arguments the first is that they assume everyone else is at a sufficient level of intelligence to comprehend the points that they are making.

The second is that they believe everyone else lacked the initial intelligence to see things ‘their way’.

Yet the reality is people are at various stages of growth and intelligence, as well as awareness as well as the ability to ask high quality questions and get high quality answers.

Further very often its not a case of people lacking the initial intelligence to arrive at your conclusion very often its really the case that they either lacked your perspective to begin with because they lack your agenda and motives to begin with, or they have actually thought of your conclusion and already rejected it.

In your case you appear to suffer from a desire to be too clever for your own good. You don’t actually gauge how your arguments will be received based on an understanding and respect of your audience.

For instance that propensity some people have to come on a conspiracy site and then immediately try to diminish others credibility and thinking processes because it’s a conspiracy site.

That is one of the things you do, it’s actually insulting to your audience and while you do it imagining somehow everyone is going to say oh wow she’s right, we are all just pursuing lunatic theories so we better listen to the nice lady who wants us to accept the official story now because she was nice enough to lower herself to our presumed level.

Its an absolutely terrible way to win friends and influence enemies, it really is just someone saying, I don’t really belong here, and you don’t really belong here because I think its wrong to ever question the ‘official’ story.

Then another favorite tactic is to be critical of any news source that presents an alternative view when in reality your audience has already rejected the official view, and nine out of ten times your news source is going to be equally biased.

Then you try to further establish yourself as some kind of superior moral authority by attempting to convey the color of that authority as something that should give you additional credibility while in a forum where most people are distrustful of authority and people claiming to speak with authority.

You end up marrying yourself to your arguments before you even have thought through the impact and likely reactions your arguments are going to have based on the demographics of your target audience.

At best you end up preaching to a few people in that choir who will pat you on the back and star you and validate you and reinforce your own supercilious notions. At worse you just are presenting yourself as a close minded person unable to tolerate any debate that deviates from the ‘official’ story and leave yourself no wiggle room to actually consider that maybe it is you that could benefit from learning something in situations you are bound and determined to try to teach someone something.

My best advice to you is to imagine someone’s mindset that is diametrically opposed to your stance and then to gauge the impact your words are likely to have on them before you committed yourself to those words and how you present them.

If you don’t show a bare minimum of respect to people who are here researching and promoting conspiracy theories, and you don’t display any capacity or propensity to learn yourself in the give and take learning process, then in reality the only thing you will be able to do is to open yourself up to questions of your motives and integrity in how you fashion your arguments.

Like you say, some people need taught some things that they don’t even know they need to learn.

Ultimately I can’t prove that Bin Laden is dead any more readily or convincingly than you can prove he is alive, and if you really are objectively and honestly looking at your own arguments and dissecting them you will see in fact that the only thing you are really doing is trying to prove he is alive by assailing the credibility and sources of anyone who believes that the preponderance of circumstantial evidence proves that he is dead.

You seem to lack the situational awareness to fathom why many people would in fact reach that conclusion and your arguments for overcoming that are weak and aimed at people’s credibility, overall sanity, and the nature of the sources of information that they trust.

If you can’t see that it’s because you aren’t looking.

The good news is there are people who even though they disagree with you are nice enough to take the time to give you the benefit of their perspective, hey don’t feel bad, I help out my doctor all the time!

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01

and then....

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

So in a year the priority changed completely. Why?
Because they'd used the boogieman to propel the war machine into the area and didn't need him anymore?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

People typically make two fundamental mistakes in preparing and presenting arguments the first is that they assume everyone else is at a sufficient level of intelligence to comprehend the points that they are making. The second is that they believe everyone else lacked the initial intelligence to see things ‘their way’.

Remind me to never tick you off! You present quite an awesome approach to the whole topic! I knew there was a reason I liked ATS so much and this is the stuff that draws me here.

Is Bin Laden dead or alive? It doesn't matter because the ideology that he promoted will still be around regardless. In a way that ideology let's people who want to murder people have a way to justify their actions. Or provide a very flimsy excuse for it.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Prey tells who would be this ‘we’ that ‘needs’ proof? The individual suffering from multiple personality disorder or other egocentric dysfunction that imagines they represent some plural entity through self definition or ‘we’ of the Israeli Internet Defense Force?

I never knew of such a group until now. Thanks for sharing that.

The Jewish Internet Defense Force (JIDF) is a pro-Israel advocacy organization which shares news and information to members and supporters through email, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Myspace, Digg, and other popular areas of the web

en.wikipedia.org...