Hamas accepts Israel's right to exist

No mention on BBC news of this. Jerusalem post website appears to be a jewish setup, although I may be wrong.

Anyone think this could be a bit of propaganda BS to swing Isreali public opinion for some reason, or indeed to anger the Palesintians?
bbcnews middle east

Originally posted by Mdv2

I haven't seen anyone mentioning Hamas to be the good boys. They are terrorists, but the fact remains that they have significant power in Gaza and on a fair share of the Palestinian people. As I previously stated, Israel should be forced to engage in a dialog. Like I also stated, Hamas has equally often rejected to recognize Israel as they accepted it, but that cannot be a reason to stop further dialog. If you think like that, they could rather bomb Israel and the Palestinian territories. Each and every opportunity should be taken. I only doubt Israel is seriously interested in a two-state solution.

All due respect. Israel has found after dealing with Arab leaders and various factions that they never keep their word. Promises are frequently made. Every agreement is broken eventually.

Israel realizes whatever situation they create to accomodate Hamas will eventually be turned around to a disadvantage.

If you have a business partner that consistently lies and steals from you - and then promises not to do it again. But returns to the same pattern again and again - what do you do?

That is the real situation.

Unfortunate for all involved.

"On May 6, 2009, Al-Quds al-Arabi, the London-based Arabic language daily, reported that as per a request from U.S. President Barack Obama the Arab League is currently in the process of revising the initiative in an effort to encourage Israel to agree to it. The new revisions include a demilitarization of the future Palestinian state as well as a forfeiture of the Palestinian right of return to Israel proper. According to the revisions, a portion of the refugees would be relocated to the future Palestinian state, and the rest would be naturalized in other Arab countries"
en.wikipedia.org...

There are other issues besides Hamas accepting Israel. Demilitarization and land rights will take some time I suppose.

Funny how Hamas hasn't changed it's "Principles" in it's Charter yet, ...

Hamas Charter

Hamas Principles

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

reply to post by mmiichael


Relax MM

The checks will still be coming from the IJDL to you.

Israel will always be the Pox on Humanity that they are.

They will still need your Spin Service.

Hezbollah has always had a problem with the existence of Israel www.nysun.com... they just toned down the rhetoric more recently in their updated manifesto www.reuters.com...

And so the funding of Hamas, the ruling democratically elected party of Gaza (am I right in thinking the west bank is still controlled by Fatah?), and their use of said funds makes them any better or worse than the terrorists in power in any western nation? We've more blood on our hands than any of these small timers, directly and indirectly. And how is it that a democratic election is only fair when we say it is? Take Afghanistan for example, were'nt happy with the first result so we'll try again... but that's OT.

The fact that Hamas are consistently attempting to open dialogue can only be seen as a good thing... no? If looking for a peaceful solution is so offensive to some why don't we just condemn Hamas for trying to open dialogue again and let the fighting resume? Why not just smash your neighbours windows for their dog peeing on your lawn, because, hey retaliation is the only option right? I just don't get it... for some people, no road to a solution is good. I for one see this as a positive step. If you can't then thats too bad, my worldly view has been dim in the past, but not that dim... may as well just not bother with anything if we're all doomed to fight for the remainder of time.

edited

[edit on 21-1-2010 by December_Rain]

I would say this is the least Hamas could do, but I doubt if they have any intention of honoring it.

9/11 has shined a light on the world of Islam, and it just keeps getting uglier and uglier. With the current ongoing problems in Europe, it isn't hard to see that public sentiment is turning against them, and people are starting to redefine what they should be willing to tolerate.

I imagine Israel will be willing to succeed some land, but they will have their reasons for doing it.

When is Islam going to turn Lebanon over to the Christians as they were supposed to originally due?

As the oil slowly runs out, things are going to get a lot uglier.

Originally posted by poet1b
9/11 has shined a light on the world of Islam, and it just keeps getting uglier and uglier.

Hamas we're involved in 9/11? I don't think so. I could as easily state:
"9/11 has shined a light on the world of political and corporate corruption, and it just keeps getting uglier and uglier"... would be as equally OT though, more truthful however.

reply to post by Pr0t0


I didn't say anything even remotely close to claiming that Hamas was involved in 9/11.

What I am saying is that the more people look at the practices of Islam, the less sympathy they are starting to have towards all Muslims, and that includes the so called Palestinians.

Originally posted by Keyhole
Funny how Hamas hasn't changed it's "Principles" in it's Charter yet, ...

Funny how people think Hamas should change principles that Hamas never wrote.

The history of the charter reveals more truth about the situation. You would even need to dig into the scrolls and texts of the Islamic books to see the original versus and how they do not match in the charter. That contradiction there should be enough to beg the question: why would a Muslim group preach something that isn't even Muslim.

reply to post by dzonatas


Because the Qur'an is interpreted in many other languages, much like any religious text, and since only around 1/5th of Muslims speak Arabic there has been culture of misinterpretation of the actual wording and meanings, particularly within fundamentalist groups in non-Arabic speaking countries which has seen rise to the misplaced use of the term 'Jihad', for example. So many Muslim groups have indeed been preaching non-Muslim ideals for a very long time.

As have Christians. The King James bible changed many aspects of the original text to suit the wishes of the King, revised previously by Romans, Henry VIII and so on. All religious texts have changed over time based on who is controlling the distribution of knowledge.

As for the Hamas charter they (Hamas) don't accept it as their document or their manifesto; but others still label them with what that document sets out - so for Hamas to now revoke that document officially is a very smart move on their part. They no longer have to deny the document, it will for all intents and purposes cease to exist. I'm sure Hamas are sick of being linked with it considering they have always denied it so it's a good step to denounce it officially.

It leaves room for dialogue with Israel who will no longer be able to point to (or rather hide behind) that document as a stumbling block toward peaceful negotiations.

Although this longstanding war is inherently rooted in religion its the humanitarian point of view that needs to be focused on... regardless of creed, colour or denomination the time for an end to senseless killing surely has to come at some time. Perhaps Hamas just took the first step on that route... perhaps they will revert to their old ways and break the deal, as have Israel in the past. Neither side here is blameless, but I'd rather support any attempt towards peace than simply denounce it based on the past... you can't move forward if you're always looking behind.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by Pr0t0]

Originally posted by Sean48

Relax MM

The checks will still be coming from the IJDL to you.

Israel will always be the Pox on Humanity that they are.

They will still need your Spin Service.

You actually believes any Jewish organization really gives a damn about what is being said by some Jew-haters on some conspiracy site discussion list?

The opinions expressed on the unfortunate misdirection of the Palestinians are not exclusive to me or Israelis. You might want to think about why Kuwait threw out 450,000 Palestinians in the 1990s.
Why Egypt feels the need to erect walls to protect themselves from Gaza. Why Lebanon and Jordan has thrown out tens of thousands and will not allow them to become citizens even after being there for decades.

These are all Muslim states that hate Israel with a passion.

The notion of Palestinian leadership being run like a money-machine franchise is not new. People in Gaza have woken up to it. Check out Hamas's popularity rating these days. Something like 5%.

Something is wrong and it's not just 'Evil Zionists'.






[edit on 21-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Okay since you have brought religion into the issue, I believe a equal rhetoric reply is suited:

Originally posted by mmiichael
You might want to think about why Kuwait threw out 450,000 Palestinains in the 1990s. Why Egypt feels the need to erect walls to protect themselves from Gaza. Why Lebanon and Jordan has thrown out tens of thousands and will not allow them to become citizens even after being there for decades. These are all Muslim states that hate Israel with a pssion.

It is nothing against how many Jewsish heritage people were expelled and almost all of these places hates Muslims with a passion

YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . PLACE

250 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
415 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
554 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocese of Clement (France)
561 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocese of Uzzes (France)
612 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
642 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
855 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
876 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nazi Controlled Areas
1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries

The notion of Palestinian leadership being run like a money-machine franchise is not new. People in Gaza have woken up to it. Check out Hamas's popularity rating these days. Something like 5%.Something is wrong and it's not just 'Evil Zionists'.

You couldn't be further away from truth
Hamas' popularity rises after Israel's Gaza war
Hamas's popularity rises after Israel's Gaza war
Seems something is indeed wrong with "Evil Zionist",

Originally posted by December_Rain

It is nothing against how many Jewsish heritage people were expelled and almost all of these places hates Muslims with a passion

YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . PLACE

250 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage

[...etc, etc, etc]

1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nazi Controlled Areas
1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries

Getting harder to comprehend the logic of these rants.

This list of Jews expelled has a lot of false information and serious contradictions. No context anywhere, of course. No comparative list of Christians or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists being expelled in the same 2000 year period. How about Indians in the Americas.

And let’s look at the list itself, which reads like something from an Iranian comedy routine. At the very top, Carthage, didn't even exist in 250, and hadn't for hundreds years. Jumping to the more recent last two centuries - Jews being expelled from various parts of Eastern Europe, particularly Poland and Russia.

Well Jeez. If the Poles threw them out, then how come Jews represented 25% of the Polish population in 1938? Ditto Germanic states. Similarly, how can they have been expelled from Russia in the 19th Century, yet the Neo-Nazis like to claim they caused the Russian Revolution? And Jews are still there/

Important is the final entry ere hshowing how much whole nations hate Jews.

Mass expulsion from Arab Countries in 1948. Yes, 850,00 Jews who had lived throughout the Middle East and North Africa for centuries were forced to leave with no notice.

The Arab countries who invaded Israel the day it was formed in 1948 were unable to destroy it. So every Jew in the region had to be punished because of their failure. A larger number than the Arabs who fled after their failed war – since 1967 calling themselves the Palestinians.

These Jews picked up and left their homes, their assets and land were seized. They didn’t cry to the UN, or sit in camps for 60s years. The Muslim world pretends it didn’t happen. These people had done nothing except being Jews.

The willful distortion of historical data for hate agendas is disgusting.

Hamas later publicly offered a long-term hudna ....

A temporary cease-fire allowed in islamic law ... to gain strengh for the muslims final battle that should crush the enemy.

Not peace - just so you know

[edit on 21-1-2010 by pilot70]

reply to post by Pr0t0


Gee , I bet that will make Some Israelis Happy . Others might not be that Impressed...........


i297.photobucket.com...

reply to post by mmiichael


mmiichael, I am not sure why people don't understand you.
I read your first post and was sold on you. Is it my brain or is it my heart?

Look, I am not accustomed to backing up either side. I am a believer in Christ. I guess that means that I'm not exactly accustomed to picking a side in political or militaristic affairs. I also have no business meddling in the religious wars.

I believe you, but I have a slight problem.

You see, I need to understand how it is possible that, despite the world already being full of con-artists (humans), then how is it possible that the Palestinians ALL TOGETHER represent a group that is somehow collectively worse than the rest of humanity? I mean, you say that the arab countries have been kicking them out... That's pretty bad!

I certainly don't mean to say that Israel hasn't earned what it is getting. HOWEVER - remember what God has said, despite His prophecies... He gives and takes when He pleases. He is not one to pick sides or to give reward for works. These things would take away from God's purpose.

Also remember that Israel is getting ready for the building of the second temple. Israel is going to be wanting a "cease-fire" and they are going to be wanting a peace-treaty soon enough.

Originally posted by pilot70

Hamas later publicly offered a long-term hudna ....

A temporary cease-fire allowed in islamic law ... to gain strengh for the muslims final battle that should crush the enemy.

Not peace - just so you know

Always an out with Islam.
They can say whatever they want and at anytime later say that they change their mind with various Sharia Laws.
Islam is designed to win. Now what could they be wanting to win?

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
I certainly don't mean to say that Israel hasn't earned what it is getting. HOWEVER - remember what God has said, despite His prophecies... He gives and takes when He pleases. He is not one to pick sides or to give reward for works. These things would take away from God's purpose.

Also remember that Israel is getting ready for the building of the second temple. Israel is going to be wanting a "cease-fire" and they are going to be wanting a peace-treaty soon enough.

Hi. I respect your right to hold any religious beliefs you want.

As to what God wants. Well he doesn't communicate directly with me, and I don't take the word of various self-appointed religious spokesmen as to what He does or doesn't want.

I think notions like the Second Temple are metaphors. Closer to legends or mythology qite frankly. Rational people give lip service to cherished stories from liturgical writings from the distant past. But try to deal with the practical realities of the present.

None of us should feel we are informed of what is God's intent.



M