Need Some Help With Sub Compact Hand Guns

Originally posted by SpacePunk
reply to post by MarshMallow_Snake

 

Look at it this way. If you need to use your weapon, you are probably going to be in close quarters so something like a Walther that fires .22 longs will be perfectly adequate in that situation.

Since you aren't drunk I must ask, are you serious? Carrying a couple of .22 Longs around for self defense isn't the greatest idea. A bullet designed for varmint shooting isn't going to translate well in to stopping humans. Anything smaller than a .380 is very questionable when it comes to defense.

A .22 isn't going to do a lot of good unless you put it directly through the eye, ear, or in to the brain stem.

Edit to add an illustrative story.

I was in the hospital emergency room a number of years ago. A guy walked in through the front doors with blood coming out of his stomach. He told the nurse at the counter he had been shot.

I overheard the doctors talking in a hallway some time later. They said he had been shot six times in the stomach and chest with a .22. He died during surgery. The .22s killed him but it took hours.

I don't want to wait hours if a hopped up junky decides he wants to do my wife or family harm.



[edit on 21-1-2010 by MikeNice81]

reply to post by Blackjak966


Awesome! Thanks for the input. I just want to buy something that I will be able to find ammo for...there is nothing here in PHX. Everything seems to be sold out.

reply to post by SM2


Great! I will check this out too.

Thanks for the input everyone. There is some good info here. I have no one to talk to at work about it, so this works

reply to post by anonamousantichrist


I live in AZ, where you do not need a permit for open carry. I have the CCW permit, which is 60 bucks for 5 years...I thought it was a good investment. Thanks for the tips!

reply to post by ZindoDoone


Thanks Zindo. I will check out the link. Funny avatar by the way!

Originally posted by anonamousantichrist

Originally posted by SM2
my preference is never carry anything smaller than a .357 or a .40s&w.

if it does not start with a .4, my wife and i do not waste our time. the only exception .357 is illegal to carry where i live.

anything over .45 ACP is illegal (if memory serves). although, i cant for the life of me find a reason why.....

OP, look into a non-resident permit from utah (florida is another good one). they are ALOT cheaper than any other state which requires a permit to carry (renewals are every 5 years and cost $10.00)


[edit on 21-1-2010 by anonamousantichrist]

WTF? it is illegal to carry over a certain caliber? I was under the impression that dead is dead. Weather by a .380, or a .44 mag. I can understand not carrying a .308 rifle around for close combat scenario but I think a 9mm will travel just as far if not farther than a .45 acp.

The .380 and 9mm, especially the 9mm is faster than a .45acp. The question is stopping power. The .380 and 9mm are not going to have anywhere near the energy and stopping power of the .40 or a .45 acp. The 9mm is more accurate then a .45acp as well, however, as was previously mentioned, most gunfights will happen within 10-20 feet, and the .357 mag, .44 mag, .40 or .45 acp are just as accurate at that range but all have the stopping power to make sure that the aggressor is put down with one shot. In my opinion, stopping power is the most important thing in carrying a weapon. There is a reason why LE are switching out thier 9mm for larger rounds (typically the .40 S&W, which is standard issue for the FBI ) For a good comparison google the ballistics test for 9mm vs .45 acp look at the Temporary wound area of both. The .45acp and .40 S&W can also cause hydrostatic shock, the 9mm and .380 are not capable of this, no matter what the load or actuall projectile are, simply put they are too small and fast to cause hydrostatic shock.

Originally posted by Sorcha Faal
WTF? it is illegal to carry over a certain caliber? I was under the impression that dead is dead. Weather by a .380, or a .44 mag. I can understand not carrying a .308 rifle around for close combat scenario but I think a 9mm will travel just as far if not farther than a .45 acp.

You know how it is with some of these gun freaks. Bigger is better. If you don't impose a limit sooner or later some clown is going to show up with a 20MM handgun or you are going to find some moron on the Iowa museum measuring one of the 16 inchers for a pistol grip.

Originally posted by SM2
The .380 and 9mm, especially the 9mm is faster than a .45acp. The question is stopping power. The .380 and 9mm are not going to have anywhere near the energy and stopping power of the .40 or a .45 acp. The 9mm is more accurate then a .45acp as well, however, as was previously mentioned, most gunfights will happen within 10-20 feet, and the .357 mag, .44 mag, .40 or .45 acp are just as accurate at that range but all have the stopping power to make sure that the aggressor is put down with one shot. In my opinion, stopping power is the most important thing in carrying a weapon. There is a reason why LE are switching out thier 9mm for larger rounds (typically the .40 S&W, which is standard issue for the FBI ) For a good comparison google the ballistics test for 9mm vs .45 acp look at the Temporary wound area of both. The .45acp and .40 S&W can also cause hydrostatic shock, the 9mm and .380 are not capable of this, no matter what the load or actuall projectile are, simply put they are too small and fast to cause hydrostatic shock.

.40 is 1 millimeter bigger than 9mm

this argument is silly, so is hydrostatic shock, its non-existent, ask any deer shot by a big ol' rifle bullet, unless its a CNS system hit they tend to still run 40-50 yards afterwards

wtf is a "temporary wound area"

you are either wounded or you are not

I carry a Kimber ultra carry II 45 ACP with laser grips. Laser is very bright even in sunlight making getting on target fast and accurate. It is light weight and easily concealable

Originally posted by watcher73

Originally posted by SM2
The .380 and 9mm, especially the 9mm is faster than a .45acp. The question is stopping power. The .380 and 9mm are not going to have anywhere near the energy and stopping power of the .40 or a .45 acp. The 9mm is more accurate then a .45acp as well, however, as was previously mentioned, most gunfights will happen within 10-20 feet, and the .357 mag, .44 mag, .40 or .45 acp are just as accurate at that range but all have the stopping power to make sure that the aggressor is put down with one shot. In my opinion, stopping power is the most important thing in carrying a weapon. There is a reason why LE are switching out thier 9mm for larger rounds (typically the .40 S&W, which is standard issue for the FBI ) For a good comparison google the ballistics test for 9mm vs .45 acp look at the Temporary wound area of both. The .45acp and .40 S&W can also cause hydrostatic shock, the 9mm and .380 are not capable of this, no matter what the load or actuall projectile are, simply put they are too small and fast to cause hydrostatic shock.

.40 is 1 millimeter bigger than 9mm

this argument is silly, so is hydrostatic shock, its non-existent, ask any deer shot by a big ol' rifle bullet, unless its a CNS system hit they tend to still run 40-50 yards afterwards

Well, not understanding somethign does not make it not exist.....

The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues.[1][2] There is scientific evidence that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects.[3] The debate between proponents of bullets that are "light and fast" versus bullets that are "slow and heavy" often refers to this phenomenon.

Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.[4] Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.

en.wikipedia.org...

last time I checked those " big 'ol rifle bullets" you spoke of...most deer are shot with either a .270, 30-06 or a .306, all of which are smaller bullets then a .40 or a .45.

As far as the temporary wound are goes... I misspoke, i was actually refering to the temporary wound cavity. heres a link explaining it in detail...

www.randywakeman.com...

Originally posted by SM2
Well, not understanding somethign does not make it not exist.....



en.wikipedia.org...

last time I checked those " big 'ol rifle bullets" you spoke of...most deer are shot with either a .270, 30-06 or a .306, all of which are smaller bullets then a .40 or a .45.

As far as the temporary wound are goes... I misspoke, i was actually refering to the temporary wound cavity. heres a link explaining it in detail...

www.randywakeman.com...

Ya thanks for the wikipedia link, I didnt know it existed. :rolleyes:

I've also seen the said science debunked, with science. Go hang around glocktalk or a thousand other gun sites then come back before you just go about repeating things.

Rifles bullets also travel in general, a lot faster than those from a pistol. Thinking that smaller faster bullets cause less shock is lacking a basic understanding of physics.

Come back when you arent taken in by false science trying to sell more lead and bigger guns.



[edit on 21-1-2010 by watcher73]

smaller and faster does generate less shock, look at the ballistics gel from say a .44 mag vs a .308.Yes, there is a lot more penetration, speed and muzzle velocity from the .308, but the .44 mag does considerably more damage all the way thru its effective range. i do not advocate a larger gun, just one that will actually do the job you intend to do with it. I will bow out of this discussion peacefully now and allow you to say what you will. I was just offering my opinion and experiance from decades of shooting,gunsmithing and reloading.

Originally posted by SM2
The .380 and 9mm, especially the 9mm is faster than a .45acp. The question is stopping power. The .380 and 9mm are not going to have anywhere near the energy and stopping power of the .40 or a .45 acp.

Stopping is usually caused not by the force of the bullet (especially in the case of handgun and rifle bullets), but by the damaging effects of the bullet which are typically a loss of blood, and with it, blood pressure. More immediate effects can result when a bullet damages parts of the central nervous system, such as the spine or brain...

Gelatin and other less elastic media have much lower tensile strengths, thus they exhibit more damage after being struck with the same amount of force. At typical handgun velocities, bullets will create temporary cavities with much less than 1 MPa of pressure, and thus are incapable of causing damage to elastic tissues which they do not directly contact...

Unless a bullet directly damages or disrupts the central nervous system, a person or animal will not be instantly and completely incapacitated by physiological damage. However, bullets can cause other disabling injuries that prevent specific actions (a person shot in the femur cannot walk) and the physiological pain response from severe injuries will temporarily disable most individuals...

The momentum of the so-called "manstopper" .45 ACP bullet is approximately the momentum [28 ft·lbm/s (3.9 kg·m/s)] of a 1 pound (0.45 kilogram) mass dropped from a height of 14 feet (4.3 meters).[10] It should be noted that momentum is very different from kinetic energy; an equivalent kinetic energy [855 ft·lbf (1159 J)]of a typical .45 ACP bullet is that of a 60 pound (27 kilogram) mass dropped from a height of 14 feet (4.3 meters). Such a force is simply incapable of arresting a running target's forward momentum.

en.wikipedia.org...

According to the FBI temporary cavity is frequently and grossly overrated as a wounding factor. FBI: Handgun Wounding

Whether hydrostatic shock is real or not doesn't matter. The truth is that the sheer force of the impact isn't going to stop a person. You have to aim for the CNS or major organs to get the desired result. Otherwise you're hoping that secondary pain will stop the attacker.

A .380 (9x17) can reach the needed organs and CNS to stop a target. A 9mm (9x19) is even more capable. A .45 really is not necessary to stop a target, especially a target at 15 feet.


[edit on 21-1-2010 by MikeNice81]

reply to post by SM2


Thanks for your input man. I appreciate it! Have a good night!

In my opinion the TAURUS PT Millennium Pro .45 is a good concealed carry weapon. Compact, accurate, and powerful.


Here's a photo demonstrating its size:

Originally posted by jibeho
It is best to determine how you want to carry and go from there. If you consider an Inside the Waist Band Holster you may want to try a thinner frame gun that uses a single stack mag. My brother uses a CrossBreed IWB holster with a Sig P239 and loves it. The beauty of IWB carry is that you can also tuck your shirt in to conceal and you don't need any extra cover.

Several .380 variants from Ruger, Kahr, Taurus, Sig Sauer and Walther have gotten some attention lately and present a low profile.

If you go 9mm, the Taurus 709, Sig P239 or Walther PPS9 are thin frame single stack guns that fit comfortably against the body. The Sig P239 is available in 9mm, .40 and .357sig and has been a top CCW choice for years. The Sigs are a little spendy but they are extremely well built and engineered.

Genius! I carry the Sig P239 in S&W40. Deburred, single stack and it's a Sig - what more needs to be said!? If its good enough for the Secret Service. Dept. of Homeland Security, FBI, Federal Marshalls etc... then it is plenty good enough for me! I absolutely love everything about that pistol!

Originally posted by MarshMallow_Snake
reply to post by MikeNice81

 

I have a 9mm and was thinking of getting that sub. The .40 call. entered my mind too..but I hear that round can be less accurate. Thanks!

Nonsense! The .40 is a VERY accurate round. Created by the FBI in conjunction with S&W and Winchester, it proves to be one of the most effective calibers for its intended purpose - personal defense. Consider the following:

"The .40 S&W cartridge has become a success in the United States because, while possessing nearly identical accuracy,[15] drift and drop, it adds almost 50 percent more energy over the 9 mm Parabellum with a more manageable recoil than the 10 mm Auto cartridge.[16] With good JHP bullets in the more energetic loads (> 500 ft•lbf) the .40 S&W can create hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets. [17][18]

The .40 S&W has been called “the ideal cartridge for personal defense and law enforcement,”[19] and a ”lot more than a 9mm.”[20] The energy of the .40 S&W exceeds standard-pressure 9x19mm Parabellum and .45 ACP loadings, generating between 350 and 500 foot-pounds of energy, depending on bullet weight. Both the .40 S&W and the 9 mm Parabellum operate at a 35,000 psi (240 MPa) SAAMI maximum, compared to a 21,000 psi (150 MPa) maximum for .45 ACP[21]. While SAAMI has not established a +P standard for the .40 S&W, there are companies marketing ammunition claimed to be +P, but they do not provide pressure data to support +P labeling.

Despite the .40 S&W's popularity amongst American law enforcement and the private sector, it has yet to be adopted by a significant number of military forces worldwide.[citation needed] The mainstay for military use in the western world largely remains the preserve of the 9 mm Parabellum, or for a few special forces, .45 ACP in their respective adopted handguns. The United States Coast Guard, however, has adopted the Sig Sauer P229R DAK in .40 S&W as their standard sidearm."

Yeah, it's from Wiki

Originally posted by Russian soldier
In my opinion the TAURUS PT Millennium Pro .45 is a good concealed carry weapon. Compact, accurate, and powerful.


Here's a photo demonstrating its size:

I will second that, my father has one, and it is an awesome handgun. It is very smooth, has a lot of safety features, easily concealable, hi capacity .45 acp, lifetime un conditional warranty, My only negative though on it, it is polymer. As for the .40 s&w, i have a Sig p226 DAK in .40. Love it as well, I used to use that as my daily carry, have since went a little old school and for the past year have been using a tricked out 1911 in .45acp as my carry weapon.