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Can you show me where I have ever came close to saying not to keep the commandments? Can you show me where I have said that Jesus is wrong?
See, I am not telling you not to do these things, I am telling you that you must. That is what the disagreement is with Paul, who claims that Jesus is the end
Thus in comes Jesus, who then gives the understanding and by that understanding people can see how and why to keep the commandments as I mentioned before. That is progression. Paul turning it back into a literal is not progression.
If you seek salvation in the death of Jesus, then you are saying the truth must be sacrificed in order for you to live. This means you must be living in the lie. And that is why they conspired to kill him, so their lie could live. The blood sacrifice and such is a manipulation designed to keep people from seeing that it is in the life and example of Jesus that true salvation can be found, not his death.
And so I think of Paul also in this manner. But yet, if in a few hundred years by chance someone does decide to take these writings and create a religion based on them and try to pass me off in the same manner, then I hope and pray that someone will please come along and fix the errors on those peoples parts. And I certainly would not consider that person as having bad will towards me for doing that, or for pointing out any errors or misunderstandings in my writings that may be there.
While you obviously consider what I'm saying to be disrespectful to Paul, I do not see it that way. This is also exactly the way I would want Paul and others to treat me if I have errors.
6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
You may want to consider the possibility that not everything in the New Testament canon attributed to Paul was actually written by Paul.
Mr Hyam Maccoby who brings out some of this in his examination of some of the inconsistencies inherent in Paul's epistolary correspondence,. . .
Sorry if I confused you !
On one hand I feel a compulsion to warn him, on the other hand I feel a compassion to the human person, attached by a thin cord to his hold on a reality that probably makes him feel secure and perhaps, in a certain way, happy.
Originally posted by Sigismundus
Deutero-Isiaiah, where chapters 40-55 and TritoIsiaiah in Is. 56-66 are not by the same person who wrote the oracles later compiled (out of order !) in proto-Isaiah chapters 1-39) -- so literary 'pious-forgeries' were common in biblical times--in other words, nothing new.
Originally posted by Not Authorized
I'm not so sure we were ignorant. Maybe. But I view it as we are rebellious. Adam was given one commandment, "don't eat that fruit", and what did he do? Eve ate it, but Adam was expressly told not to do so. Only after Adam ate it, did we fall.
Adam couldn't even get one simple commandment right.
Either way, God was not surprised. He was already working on our salvation before the foundation of the world. He knew we would fall and become who we are today. (Rev 13:8, 1 Peter 1:18-20, Ephesians 1:3-7, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 8:29-30, Hebrews 12:2, Job 19:25, etc). I look at it simply, that God was already dealing with you and your sin, before the world began.
You are fond of John which ironically, is what I'm studying at the moment. I agree that we did NOT have a good nature -- but not ignorant. In fact, our heart is evil (Matthew 15:19, Gen 6:5, and many others), and unrepairable and has to be replaced (Ezekiel 36:26).
More so, Yeshua defined our problem, in which it's not ignorant per say, but that men (me and you) love darkness, more than they love light. That also is our condemnation. (John 3:19). Also further to back that up is Job 24:12-17, Isaiah 29:15
Ignorance in it's pure-form, would require us to love neither darkness nor light. If we were truely ignorant, we would still be in the garden today, as how would we be accountable for sin we did not commit willingly? We were held accountable the moment God said to Adam, "don't eat that!".
Don't put to much into it, as it's just conjecture. I do not want to derail the conversation. This is why I spoke of inter-linkage, as types are plastered all over the Bible. To me, these idioms, and types, etc, used are the same throughout 66 books, written by over 40 authors, over a period of thousands of years. It shows finger prints of design, not by men, but the Holy Spirit.
From Genesis to Revelation -- one book, by one author.
The Serpent, actually could be considered not a literal serpent, but the Nachash (נחש) or more appropriately the "Shining One" in Genesis 3. If you do a word study on "serpent", throughout the Old Testament, the nachash, is never spoken of as wisdom, but cursed, sin, fiery, poison, and the like. Thus "serpent" is a "type" of sin.
As Christ said in John 3:14 that he would be lifted up, he's referring to an odd event in Numbers 21. In short, fiery serpents came, and started attacking the camp. Moses was asked to pray to God. He was commanded to create a brass serpent, and lift it up on a pole. If bitten, the people were to look at the pole and be healed, if not, they died. Here we have a "type" of sin and Christ. Brazen (Brass) is signification of the judgment of sin (Ex. 26:19; Num. 21:9; Rev. 1:15; Is. 48:4). The serpent of brass being on a "pole" was a future signification of Christ on the cross.
The message? Look to the cross for the judgment of sin and be saved. This is why Paul alludes to this in 2 Cor 5:21.
If serpents are Wisdom in the scripture, we have a problem here by the typological model that Christ was pointing out. Does that make sense?
Wisdom is not place there, but knowledge. I focus on the other part the Shining One said. "Ye shall be as gods". Ironically, that same lie is perpetuated throughout history, even today. How many think they are God, or can be God? Satan doesn't change his tricks. Being God, knowing Good and Evil is still tempting today, as it was at the beginning.
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Originally posted by Not Authorized
Solomon asked for Wisdom, and he got it. Yet David, was a man after God's own heart. There is a difference between the two. David is never spoken ill of, yet Solomon is never spoken of in a positive light. Thats because David wanted fellowship with God -- not wisdom.
1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
What choice? Sorry, i'm confused here. Are you talking about Predestination? I don't want to assume what you mean here.
Originally posted by Not Authorized
To limit ourselves as to what Christ said, and ONLY things that Christ quoted in the OT is very narrow. Indeed, if we followed this route, we couldn't go over the 100 or so prophecies regarding his first coming as he quotes very little of them as the Apostles wrote or inferred much of them.
1.) Christ said that not one Jot or Tittle would pass until the law be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18-20 In this like, I should be able to quote the Old Testament as he's referring to the "law". Indeed he wrote it. As such he validated prophets, such as Isaiah, Jonah, etc.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
2.) In the case of translational errors (Yes, there are some KJV supporters), I should be allowed to revert to the Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew in these cases to extrapolate the meaning. Namely, the NT will primarily be in the Greek. Primary example below.
3.) Background and context of the situation, namely the Pharisee's and Sadducee's. Ie, what they believed in, how it was applied, as a matter of historical record.
4.) In the cause of Paul, as that is our focus, if there is a "contradiction", then I should be allowed to quote other verses that Jesus, Paul, James, Jude, Matthew or the like also clarified to show not a contradiction, but agreement.
There is a saying by Rabbi's. When the Messiah comes, not only will he explain the Jot and Tittle's, but the very spaces between words.
I believe they are all one book, not different. The only partial EXCEPTION is Revelation, which has the audacity to promise a blessing to those that read it. I think I know this blessing, and it's because Revelation is in code. But that code is explained in every book of the bible (minus Ruth). That's including the NT. There's over 700 illusions to the NT and OT, and searching each of them one will gain knowledge.
If there's a contradiction, then we simply have not done our homework in the OT, and NT. Put Christ in the center of it, and see what happens.
Any contradictions I've ran across can be resolved by those rules above.
First, the statement by Yeshua (John 10:35) comes to light. The scripture CANNOT be broken. Christ is clearly referring to what we call the Old Testament. In such, Christ's words validated the law and the prophets. As Daniel stated it as "the scripture of Truth". (Dan 10:21).
If I don't believe what Yeshua says, I got bigger problems as to the in errancy of the text, don't I?
Second, the "Word of the LORD" shows up a bunch of times in the Old Testament. As such, it is NOT surprising that John took the "logos", or "word" as a Title of Jesus Christ. "The word of the LORD came to Isaiah", "The word of the LORD came to Ezekiel", etc. Additionally all throughout scripture, the prophets were commanded to write down things in a book, etc. A word study on either of those is fascinating.
In fact, I'll toss you a gold nugget. Did you know God writes it down in a book or remembrance every time you think of him? (Mal 3:16).
Originally posted by Not Authorized
So, if Christ is indeed the Word of God, or the Logos, he promises that his words, will not pass away (Matthew 24:35), and not one letter will disappear (Mat 5:18), then is that not a validation of the scriptures before him?
Indeed the Word will not either. Christ was the living embodiment of the Word. The Word was made flesh, and he dwelt (real translation is tabernacled) among us. (John 1)
Other promises, his word is settled forever (Psa 119:89), shall stand forever (1 Peter 1:25), and again Word stands forever (Isaiah 40:8)
Those same promises are also made of the New Testament by Peter (2 Peter 1:21), Paul (2 Tim 3:16,17, Hebrews 4:12). In them we learn that men, who were moved by the Holy Spirit, wrote those same scriptures and as an echo to this, 1 Kings 8:56 and Ezekiel 12:25.
That's where God has promised me, and to those that read his book.
1Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
Which brings up a philosophical issue. I think that IF you are writing something the Holy Spirit wants you to write (OT/NT), and you intentionally try to change it, God whom created heaven and earth, can just as easily reorganize that Ink on the parchment to exactly what he wants.
Here I stand on his promise, that the scripture cannot be broken, his words will not fade away, etc. Indeed they haven't in the OT, nor the NT.
I'm assuming you mean the apparently contradiction between Matthew 5:17-20, and Romans 10:4?
One MUST be right, and if one is right, it MUST be Yeshua. I have a feeling this is where you are coming from, and in a way, we are a lot a like.
I see why you could see that. Indeed, you would be correct because I also agree that if Paul meant that he's dead wrong and must be set aside. The Spirit HAS pointed out this to you as "something is wrong" just as it did me when I read it.
But you didn't go far enough, you stopped there and blamed Paul for being against the law but did not check what the text says -- in the Greek. Your only error here is you depended on the translators.
If the translators had done Romans 10:4 properly, you would not be saying this. In fact, Paul is alluding to Christ as the fulfillment of the law -- not the end. In the English, it gives the impression of "finality". Ie, the law ENDED, which clearly IS a contradiction to what Christ said. I'll explain by rule #2.
The Greek word τέλος (telos) in Romans 10:4 translated "end", can convey variations in meaning, including "the last in succession of a series", "it's close", "the purpose of, aim, or end which all things relate"
With that in mind, lets look at Romans 10:4 again and instead of using the English word "end", use one of the variations of the meaning of the Greek word.
"Christ is the [purpose and the end to which all things relate] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. " -- ie all things in the law, point to Christ. Nothing about the END of the law.
All things in the law point to Christ, which is exactly the view I hold and exactly what Christ said he was doing in Matthew 5:17.
You can even flip this around. If you are righteous and believe, then you must accept that Christ was a fulfillment the and the purpose of law. Again, exactly what Matthew 5:17 said and implied.
Paul is not saying the law is ended, he is saying everything in the scripture points to Christ! Yes, even the way the tabernacle was setup, every part used in there speaks of Christ. Yes, even in the physical temple you can find his attributes. EVERYTHING in the Old Testament speaks of him. It's exciting and will lead you on a treasure searching trip the rest of your life in scripture!
He's calling them ignorant, going about to fulfill the law in their own way to their own righteousness-- oblivious to the fact that Christ was the purpose and fulfillment of the law and only thru Christ can they be righteous.
Originally posted by Not Authorized
It's not just there either. Luke 24:25-27 says the same thing. "Then said He unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself"
As such there is no contradiction. Paul is accurate to state that the purpose or "end" if you want to use the English of the law was to point to Christ. Indeed it's was. Truth is when the Word and the Deed become one, and Christ is truth. If the Torah/law is truth, then by default, he had to fulfill.
Paul expounds this in Gal 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
Ie, sort of like the the saying. The ends justify the means.
I believe every page of the Bible, even in the Torah, points to Jesus Christ. Every place name, word, etc speaks of Christ. He himself said it, and Paul said it here as well.
For further backup, this translation issue is very clear in the New King James Version's rendering of 1 Timothy 1:5, where τέλος (telos) is properly translated as purpose in the clause "the purpose of the commandment is love." instead of "end" in the KJV. In this same verse the NRSV translates telos as "aim" and the NIV renders it as "goal."
I hope that resolved your apparent contradiction. I just ask that you limit inquires of contradictions to just a few per day. I can't keep taking 7 hours out of my work day to respond and my 9 month old daughter doesn't let me type for more than 5 minutes when at home. 8)
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light , not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous?
Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of god. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.
We were born to make and manifest the glory of god that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."
Originally posted by pthena
In some strange way that's God being fair, so no one has a super advantage. The Gentiles too have to go through a long progression. It's been long and bloody and nasty.