Are Non-Believers Shallow Thinkers--Really??

Originally posted by John_Brown

why is it so wrong to believe that god always was and always will be???

Because the only reason you insist on this GOD is because your entire worldview and justification for being, your way of life, is predicated on the existence of this GOD, the one you were indoctrinated with as a child and never questioned, or decided to believe because the fairy tales absolve you of guilt and responsibility for your poor behavior, self-control, and intellect. It is wrong because you and people like you can't be reasoned with, because you are forbidden by your faith to consider ALL POSSIBLE TRUTHS based on EVIDENCE, of which there is none for your GOD. That is a shallow thinker.

Why ask this question, but to further proselytize your ignorance with phony scientific crap like "nothing never existed" and "time is forever". Why bother with science if GOD has all the answers? The world is still flat, isn't it?

John_Brown, why don't you grow up and stop being so ignorant and insulting? Just because you FAIL to see the requirement of an initial source of all things, you assume that your worldview is somehow superior. Nothing could be further from the truth. Science is merely an attempt to explain WHAT we see in nature... nothing more, nothing less. Science makes no attempt to explain HOW things got the way they are, where they came from in the VERY VERY VERY beginning, or WHY they are here in the first place. We who have a "faith" as you call it, can either be scientifically astute or scientifically ignorant. There are many ignorant atheists as well... I have have met many.

I am not only scientifically astute, but I also spend much time thinking about other things besides WHAT is observable in the physical world. Philosophy is an entirely different mental exercise, one which you are perhaps not very familiar with. I highly recommend it as an fascinating and satisfying mental exercise, one that will give you great pleasure as you begin to ponder some of the more esoteric questions in life. Some of the greatest thinkers in man's history have been skilled not only in science, but also in philosophy.

But, if you are not interested in that, please try to keep your ignorance about philosophy at bay, because it really doesn't do much to make you look advanced as a human being, except maybe to others who are just as unfamiliar with this form of mental and intellectual endeavor.

So, by way of simplistic summary, here is the way things break down:

UNDERSTANDING THE PHYSICAL WORLD = SCIENCE
THEORIES OF PHYSICAL WORLD PROGRESS = SCIENCE/PHILOSOPHY
PRE-UNIVERSE ORIGINS = PHILOSOPHY/RELIGION
WHY WE ARE HERE = PHILOSOPHY/RELIGION

If you want to pretend that the only valid mental pursuits are the first two in the above list, then go right ahead. Just remember though that for those of us who spend much time in all four areas of inquiry, you are the one who appears to be shallow.

Originally posted by neo5842
As a none believer i find most if not all religions repulsive, their teachings are nothing short of evil, and self preserving. I have done my share of study on most religion, mainly Christianity, I was once on the verge of becoming a Christian. But when you start reading passages like insisting on people be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath, and stoning people because they are gay, or stoning ones own children because they are disobedient, Or, taking innocent people as your own slaves, and killing innocent men women and children because they don't believe in your god. These things are all in the bible and if the bible is the perfect word of your god, then you have no right to contradict it nor change what it says, not do you have the right to change its meaning, as its meaning is perfectly clear, The word of God.

Now i am neither intelligent nor IMO narrow minded, I have studied Astronomy, Maths, and many others sciences, and subjects, to help me have a greater understanding of my world, and others i share it with, including he planet and other creatures. Studying theology was and is an important part of the learning curve to have an understanding of both sides of the coin, so to speak. Thing is i would never once insist on anyone believing in what i believe, and would never insult anyone for their individual beliefs. I do however find it highly annoying when most religious types seem to think they have the right to do that to me and others whom are proud none believers in any kind of religion. And to be honest with the majority of people i have come across on ATS this is a pretty silly thing to do here to. again IMO.

Stoning was something in the Old Testament, not the New. Christianity is the very antithesis of "eye for an eye", and in fact, is all about forgiveness and restoration. Sadly, however, there have been many who have distorted and perverted the true meaning of many religious schools of thought.

Mainly, religion or more accurately "spirituality" deals with the HEART of mankind, not the intellect. It deals with the usually-destructive passions, desires, fears, and selfishness that so often plagues many people. It is not really in any direct competition to science, but is really quite complimentary to it.

Originally posted by John_Brown

why is it so wrong to believe that god always was and always will be???

Because the only reason you insist on this GOD is because your entire worldview and justification for being, your way of life, is predicated on the existence of this GOD, the one you were indoctrinated with as a child and never questioned, or decided to believe because the fairy tales absolve you of guilt and responsibility for your poor behavior, self-control, and intellect. It is wrong because you and people like you can't be reasoned with, because you are forbidden by your faith to consider ALL POSSIBLE TRUTHS based on EVIDENCE, of which there is none for your GOD. That is a shallow thinker.

Why ask this question, but to further proselytize your ignorance with phony scientific crap like "nothing never existed" and "time is forever". Why bother with science if GOD has all the answers? The world is still flat, isn't it?

That is quite a shallow judgment. You can't possibly know for sure that the OP believes that way for he has never said that.
How do you know he was indoctrinated as a child? Who ever said that it was forbidden for Christians to consider all possible truths?
I believe just the opposite. I believe God wants us to question and explore. The reason God gave us free will was because he didn't want a bunch of mindless drones worshiping him with out knowing what we are getting ourselves into. He has the angels for that. God wants people to believe in him who came to that decision on their own I believe God wants us to question him, at least I hope he doesn't, because I question him all the time, and yes a lot of those times is because I heard something from a pastor or such, and through questioning God, I learn to differentiate between what man says God is and who he REALLY is.
Now back to the topic. What I got form the original post was that if one is possible than so is the other. Being that I believe God is a non corporeal being made up of energy capable of thought.But personally I don't believe there was a beginning nor will there be an end to the universe or God, because I don't Believe the Universe has a linear time in which there could be a pinpointed start or end date. I think its all meshed together, but its hard to explain.

reply to post by downisreallyup


Secular in India means something different than it does in the West. It basically means that it does not favour any particular religion. The state and religion are separate. Yes, I agree, India is a very religious country. It has been since the beginning of Indian civilisation.

Well, while I believe there is a God or "creative force," if you will, I don't know that I completely agree with you. We really don't know if matter is "alive" or not. There are those within modern day physics who would say matter seems very much "alive."



[edit on 25-12-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by downisreallyup

Stoning was something in the Old Testament, not the New. Christianity is the very antithesis of "eye for an eye", and in fact, is all about forgiveness and restoration. Sadly, however, there have been many who have distorted and perverted the true meaning of many religious schools of thought.

Mainly, religion or more accurately "spirituality" deals with the HEART of mankind, not the intellect. It deals with the usually-destructive passions, desires, fears, and selfishness that so often plagues many people. It is not really in any direct competition to science, but is really quite complimentary to it.

I would have to disagree with that statement as some of the most disturbing quotes i have found are in the new testament although some are from the 10 commandments, for instance

referring to the 4th commandment, and not working on the Sabbath.
Exodus 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. So we must kill millions of people for working on Sundays?


Refering to Gay men:
leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

I am sure if the gay people of the world were to know and understand this statement, there wouldn't be many gay men left in the Christian Church.

Temptations to Sin
Mathew 18:7-9
7 “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! [1] For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! 8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell [2] of fire.

you deicide, i know what i think about that one. there are many more just go and look don't take my word for it.

Just a few examples, the fact is also that the old and new tenements are used in the teaching of Theology, and because the word of god is "perfect" it would not be considered proper for any man to take the parts that he wants to believe and follow, and simply dismiss others that he does not.

One of the main problems i have is that this book is used in courts of law and it taught in schools around the world, the problem is that most people Christians or otherwise have not read the bible fully, therefore they do not know what it contains, if they did, i believe people would not want to follow something that insists on killing millions of innocent people because of their beliefs or the way they live their life because it don't agree with the teachings they themselves believe in. Again though IMO

The Bible English standard version

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by itsawild1

 

India is a hell hole for most people, because of there religion that is false as far as i am concerned. No such thing as karma, and the fact that blair has murdered a million people and nothing happens to him,shows there is no such thing as karma.

I would have to say from my experience that it is the religious people that are shallow thinkers.

No such thing as karma? I assume you mean kharma.

Well I hate to break it to you. But what do you think " ye shall reap what you sow" means?

"I like your Christ, I do not like your christians they are so unlike your Christ."

Ghandi


I believe christians to be a totally different race, not ethnicity but race.

And I also believe christians to be the dumbest race on the planet.

Originally posted by neo5842

Originally posted by downisreallyup

Just a few examples, the fact is also that the old and new tenements are used in the teaching of Theology, and because the word of god is "perfect" it would not be considered proper for any man to take the parts that he wants to believe and follow, and simply dismiss others that he does not.

The problem isn't a book. The problem is no one who claims to believe what it is the book actually reads the book.

The bible itself reveals to us the Word of God is Christ. In the book of John the very first chapter.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among men.

Jesus is the Word. The bible is a collection of books written by men who were (if you believe) inspired by God to write those books. If someone says the bible is the word of God, then I simply interchange the word in the verse.

In the beginning was the bible and the bible was with God and the bible was God.

This is actually more revealing than people think, because those who say the bible is the word of God, WORSHIP the BIBLE.
Christ is no where around.

In the bible it states "scripture is good for reproof and correction."
What the bible does not reveal is, what scripture really is. So scripture is whatever the particular person wants it to be.

No where in the bible is it written that the bible is the Word of God, nor the pillar of truth that so many people think it is.

The bible says the pillar of truth is the church, and that would be the church that has been around that Jesus started. The one James the apostle was the head of in Jerusalem. Which is now known as the eastern orthodox church.

All other churches are corrupt.

Now knowing this, NO WONDER professing Christians act like they do.
And the very reason I believe the (so called ) believers are the shallow thinkers.

The RCC and ALL protestant churches are corrupt. When the RCC had priests that were molesting little boys, they just transferred them to do it somewhere else. That organization has nothing to do with Christ.
ALL protestant churches are offspring of the RCC.

Also, according to whats written in the bible priests are allowed 1 wife. Celibacy is a perversion adopted by the RCC that in my opinion caused the molestation to happen in the first place.

The instruction in the bible calls for unity.
If that is true then why are 38,000 different denominations that distinguish one group FROM one another?? That is the opposite of unity.

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FREE ADMISSION!!!
Disclaimer: Accuracy of performances not guaranteed and you will guilted into giving a donation.

I call it how I see it.

The Love of Money is the root of all evil. Send me 20 bucks to hear more!!!
This is what every TV and radio preacher does.

Paul preached and was the example of a traveling preacher, which is what TV and radio preachers really are. They simply use technology to travel.

Paul stated he would not be a burden on those he was preaching to and had his own job to support himself.

How many preachers do you know have a real job and don't sponge of the members of the church? Joel Osteen the biggest church in America, doesn't have a real job. And he is rich.

It is written it will be easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven.
( the word camel is mistranslated, it should say rope but that's a whole other issue, you still can't get a camel through an eye of a needle)

Pat Robertson is a billionaire, and he claims he is helping people get to heaven. If he isn't going to make it, why would anyone listen to him?
Same goes for Osteen.

Christians are the dumbest race on the planet!!!

[edit on 25-12-2009 by Orrfyreus]

[edit on 25-12-2009 by Orrfyreus]

Originally posted by downisreallyup

Originally posted by John_Brown


Philosophy is an entirely different mental exercise, one which you are perhaps not very familiar with.

Philosophy can be compared to a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that's not there!

I get enough exercise I don't need to be involved with mental midget wrestling.

[edit on 25-12-2009 by Orrfyreus]

reply to post by itsawild1


Quantum mechanics is starting to show that matter is only the end result of energy collapse. Which creates our known reality. So no, matter didn't always have to exist. Only energy.

Energy can be anything. Consciousness could have been the first energy. We know that all points in space/time exist simultaneously in the 4th dimension. It could very well be the only causal paradox allowed to exist. Our consciousness on the 4th dimension is what triggered the original big bang and consequentially lead to the very consciousness that created itself in the first place.

There, problem solved. No God needed. Only causality and quantum mechanics.

reply to post by itsawild1


what was your question again?

!!!

1--ok non-believers---lets say there was a big bang---oh wait--without fuel [elements] how can you have a big bang???--so we will say there never was nothing--for nothing cannot ever become something?? so we will say matter always existed- matter cannot live--so we must have a life force that also always existed--so why is it so wrong to believe that god always was and always will be??? 2-so time always existed never a start or never an end--just a circle that goes on and on --like matter and a life foce-

right.. lets try to work out wtf it is your saying,,,

ok non-believers---lets say there was a big bang

That means you are right? Ok ok there was a big bang!! and?

oh wait--without fuel [elements] how can you have a big bang

the big bang created them? thats the point? or do you mean "what created the big bang" ??? if you are asking that "there was no bang"

so we will say there never was nothing--for nothing cannot ever become something??

well technically thats not true is it? if you say there was nothing then you do in fact create something.

Nothing is not a word its a description. you know like infinity? how smart are you btw? nevermind lets keep going

so we will say matter always existed- matter cannot live

Well it has ? but matter can live you just not have to think inside of a box..

what do you think you are made from fairy dust? woo interesting!

so we must have a life force that also always existed

nope you confuse being here with being created.. thats why people DIE.. if your life force was always here you wouldnt die now would you brains?

the method that created your life on the other hand is another story! ; )

so why is it so wrong to believe that god always was and always will be???

because you think god is a man. hes NOT a man hes not even a he "its a function"

i dont see my cells going about calling me god? well not that i have noticed LOL...

so time always existed never a start or never an end--just a circle that goes on and on --like matter and a life foce-

I didnt really understand this part... time is only relitive to a living being.. a rock has no need for "time" as its only a refrence to keep you sain.. lol

but in a crackpot kinda way yes its goes on an on.. untill you die then time becomes nothing..

I understand from your post you are into the muslim "god thing" or maybe a fundermental christian "by the use of non-believers"

and in short they are not shallow..

tho i do know a lot of believers who are and very dogmatic and ignorant and petty.

because gods word is there life and nothing on this planet wil change that.

yet not one jumps of a clif to question god him self about this problem.

wonder why?

I would like to add one more thing about bible worshipers.

Calvinism as it is known in religious circles is a belief system that promotes sola scriptura.

Bible only.

If your neighbor tied your dog to a stake, stacked green wood around him, and burned him to death. Would you want him to interpret the bible for you?

Well John Calvin was guilty of doing that very thing to Michael Servetus.
That's right, a lawyer who fancied himself a theologian, Burned someone at the stake for not conforming to his perverted ideas.

Many people follow his ideas vehemently to this day, and will fight you over opinions.
Who in their RIGHT mind would think Christ has anything to do with that?

It is the believers who are shallow thinkers.

reply to post by Mr. Toodles



That is a very interesting perspective, Edgar Casey wrote almost that very thing over 50 years ago.

The conscienceness (energy from them) of many that were in another dimension caused the physical universe to come into existence.

If you have never read Casey, what are the odds you come up with the same perspective.

I agree with your assessment.

Click here for more information.




[edit on 12/25/2009 by benevolent tyrant]

reply to post by Orrfyreus


I have heard his name. Never read anything about his theories though. I will have to look more into him now that you mention that

Shallow thinkers are anyone who do not believe as you do.

Lets see, there are six billion folks on the planet so their are six billion shallow believers alive today. Minus one, (you.)

No one believes as you do. Your soul is as unique as the finger prints on your hand. You, Yes you, are the greatest of all creation, and the most lost of all that will ever be.

You do not understand the absolute beauty of your own soul. The sheer vibrancy of what it means to be alive.....

Look not for the believers, or the non-believers, but for the heart that guides you to the things you know inside are the path you are destined to walk.

Find that peace, and walk it contentedly among your fellow travelers,

wupy

Originally posted by mrwupy
Shallow thinkers are anyone who do not believe as you do.

I disagree. I have many conversations with respectful people who have differing opinions. I do not think those people are shallow.

What I consider to be one aspect of being a shallow thinker is that if the person you are discussing something with cannot convince you that what they are saying is true, they turn on you like a rabid dog.

For some reason when a believer cannot convert you, they get offended as if they failed. Which if they read the bible would know that they will not see the result of the seed they plant while preaching the gospel.

But those greedy @#$'s want to see a result, so then the unbeliever becomes a punching bag for them. And the believers end up following the teachings of Mohammed. Kill the infidel where ever you find them, unless they convert.

They don't do this because they are critical thinkers, that's for sure!!!

Originally posted by itsawild1
1--ok non-believers---lets say there was a big bang---oh wait--without fuel [elements] how can you have a big bang???--so we will say there never was nothing--for nothing cannot ever become something?? so we will say matter always existed- matter cannot live--so we must have a life force that also always existed--so why is it so wrong to believe that god always was and always will be??? 2-so time always existed never a start or never an end--just a circle that goes on and on --like matter and a life foce-



Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 25 Dec 2009 by Hellmutt]

I think the answer to the question in the title in this thread is NO. If I choose not to believe in God or ETs or what ever but have an open mind to learning, and keep asking questions then that is not shallow thinking. One who questions the unknown and holds fast to not believing everything they hear or even see as fact is much like a good scientist.

Now, one who simply thinks this is all there is and there is no more and does not what to be open to learning is a problem for us all. Lets face it, we got millions and millions of people here on earth who just don't give a ---- about anything. They are basically worthless in the sense of the human race growing not just mentally but spiritually or even technically.

Well, I do believe in God and I do believe in ET and most importantly I believe in the human race, I do think we are going threw some kind of awaking. To many people are starting to feel it.



[edit on 25-12-2009 by intothelight]

reply to post by intothelight


That was a good post, except for the part about popping babies out.

And what does the location of someones residence have to do with their integrity or outlook on life?

When we look to who is locked up, that doesn't mean much to me because DNA evidence keeps setting them free.

The self centered guy in a position of authority, well the position of authority usually causes the corruption.

on second thought, that wasn't such a good post.

If you see a fat man ...
Who's jolly and cute,
wearing a beard
and a red flannel suit,
and if he is chuckling
and laughing away,
while flying around
in a miniature sleigh
with eight tiny reindeer
to pull him along,
then lets face it...

Your eggnog's too strong!



I wish I had some eggnog!!!!


Merry Christmas!!!!

You do have the right to believe whatever you choose. If you choose to believe in god or that the world in 6,000 years old or that the universe rests on the back of a turtle -- then you are free to do so without any criticism from me.

However, extend to me the same right. I accept logic, observation, rational inquiry and the scientific method as appropriate tools for the investigation of the phenomenological world, so I will certainly appreciate ideas about the big bang expressed in that way, but my own religious beliefs do not enter into to it -- as your should not either.

So to your questions -- I myself do not "believe" in the big bang although I have to admit that there is a lot of evidence for that position, but there is also evidence for other models as well. The arguments you present just don't make the cut in the discussion (no fuel? please!)

As for the question you have about believing in god, do as you will, you don't need my or any one else's permission to believe in the god of your own choosing.