You have all gotten in bed with the enemy.

"When it comes time to hang the capitalists, they will sell us the rope"
Lenin

Anything to make a buck. Even if it means destroiying the very place they live. Wait, thats why they buy private islands...

I agreed with a lot of what the OP had to say here. But let's move on from carbon taxes.

Part of what a "carbon tax" is supposed to do is distract the people who want to take drastic action to 'save the environment.' A good example of what they want to distract you from is AN ENVIRONMENTAL TARIFF:

en.wikipedia.org...

If you won't read the wiki article, it's not hard to sum it up: a system of environmental tariffs means we look at how much air pollution, ocean pollution etc a nation really produces. We compare that to what it costs our companies to comply with our own environmental pollution standards. And then we charge foreign companies who want to create cheaper products by polluting, for access to our markets. We charge them to balance it out, so that pollution doesn't make them more competitive, at least not in our own markets.

Such a system is illegal, because of the GATT and the WTO. Would such a system work? I'm not sure, I don't think it's been discussed enough yet. But carbon taxes have. They're done; they are a junk idea which was even hijacked by thieves.

Pollution is real. Clean air and clean oceans matter. There is nothing nebulous about breathing in gallium, no matter where it comes from. That garbage island in the Pacific - guess what, it's mostly not because of the US.

Climate change is always happening. I think a lot of the hysteria has to do with the way science is funded. Given our lack of a comprehensive understanding of climate, and the importance of understanding it when there are ~6billion+ people on the earth, we really should invest in the science of understanding what is really happening. Yet what gets you the grant money is alarmist cries of 'wolf.' And the point of the admonishment against crying wolf is not that there is never a wolf at the door, of course. The point is that it undermines all calls to alarm, and that rather seems like the state of environmental policy now eh?

Now about that economic stuff...

"Consumption" pretty much has to drive the economy, no matter what sort of "consumption" it is. We would not be better off it was government consumption, or corporate consumption, instead of private consumption. As the GDP article at wiki will illustrate, there are other ways of looking at GDP, but no economy could exist without 'consumption.' The important thing is that our markets serve us well, not the other way around. Nominal progress must reflect real progress, and sometimes that requires regulation to correct market failures.

Libertarians, of both big L and small l: do not believe the lies of the Marxist academics of the 20th century. Liberty is not anarchy. An undefended market is not a free market. A free market is not the state of nature. The state of nature is the Jungle. Liberty can and must tax, liberty can and must build, and liberty can and must regulate. The liberty to choke to death is obviously not really liberty. These notions were undermined to sabotage liberty to make a clear path for a new tyranny based on seductive Marxist lies.

Also, those top 5 companies by income are just the current 5 best at re-capturing money. A list by industry might be more relevant. Based on 2007 data, some Swiss physicists calculated the 10 financial companies that had wielded the most influence over world financial markets...I could list them but please read the whole thing:

ftalphaville.ft.com...

I wouldn't mind seeing a 2009 data version given the shake out of 2008. But the point is, Marxism, Socialism, Communism, central planning, whatever the heck you want to call it, is all a lot closer to describing the global oligarchy we have than free market, free enterprise capitalism.

If you want to achieve a post-scarcity world, you must support a return to free market, free enterprise capitalism, and then defend them.

You sound like a complete NWO puppet. You're just peeved because your global warming scam was exposed and now you're throwing a tantrum.

there is no way I am reading all these replys, but I must say... ( i am sure most of them are just bashing the OP for having a brain)...
BEST POST ON ATS LATELY.......

hit the screw on the head (great post, but it will still go nowhere)

i am glad there are still a few logical people on this site....

reply to post by 11andrew34


Hey great post! Although I don't agree with everything you wrote I appreciate you taking the time to contribute some potential solutions, so mad props for that

So in the interest of constructive debate, the couple things I have a bit of a hang up with:

Yet what gets you the grant money is alarmist cries of 'wolf.'

Actually, the truth is even worse than this: what motivates most research & development is the same thing that motivates everything else: PROFIT.

A great example is the very encouraging preliminary work done on DCA and it's potential to cure cancer. But none of the big pharmaceuticals want to foot the bill for furthering the process because you can't patent DCA so you can't make any real money off of it. And of course who cares about actually saving millions and millions of lives.

It took 25 years of crying "wolf" over global warming before anyone really started paying attention to it (the first report was given to Lyndon Johnson in the 60's). And even since then I believe it's taken so long because a lot of the major players have been stalling the process until they can figure out a proper way to profit off of it.

But as so many around here seem to have confused - just because there are sinister opportunists trying to exploit the issue - doesn't make the actual problem any less real.

But this is also why I want to bring the focus back to doing things on the grass-roots level. Because I don't care what anyone believes: there is NO conspiracy in turning the lights off when you leave a room, or walking somewhere instead of driving.

But I also truly think a lot of people just automatically jump on the anti-global warming bandwagon because they are lazy. Because it's a lot easier to say "it's a conspiracy!" instead of resolving to actually do something about it.


...
As for the economic side:

What I was talking about before wasn't just consumption but overconsumption - the same mentality that fueled the credit crisis: spending beyond your means, just in this case we're spending beyond the planet's means.

But I also don't really think consumption has to drive an economy. It is production and labor that drives it - and yeah of course you have to motivate people to do that labor but something that can make up for the potential drop in motivation is also to make sure the entire system is as efficient as possible.

And right now our system is horribly horribly inefficient because it's been completely hijacked and held hostage by these Corporatists at the top of the pyramid. Such a disproportionate amount of GDP goes into just making their personal bank accounts fatter and fatter rather than improving the overall standard of living for everyone.

It's at the point where we are literally nothing more than economic slaves. And if so many people are going to spend this much time talking about conspiracies - THIS is the motherload and THIS is where our collective mental effort should focus. That in itself would be a whole lot more efficient and productive rather than starting pointless threads about global warming being akin to religious fanaticism.

If we're going to focus on the potential problems of the AGW movement then we should spend that time doing what you just did - discussing actual solutions instead of just bitching about them

Originally posted by baphomet420
there is no way I am reading all these replys, but I must say... ( i am sure most of them are just bashing the OP for having a brain)...
BEST POST ON ATS LATELY.......

hit the screw on the head (great post, but it will still go nowhere)

i am glad there are still a few logical people on this site....

Actually the majority of responses so far have been very supportive - you should find the time to read through them at some point because most are also very well thought out and constructive.

But thanks for the kind words regardless

Originally posted by factbeforefiction
You sound like a complete NWO puppet. You're just peeved because your global warming scam was exposed and now you're throwing a tantrum.

Dear Moderators please forgive me for the following one line post put this is honestly the only intelligible way I feel I can respond to this:


...Baaaaaaaaaa!

reply to post by mc_squared

I agree with you MC. Most of us don't realize that "Global Warming" is the latest iteration of "Clean Water" endeavor of several years ago. Back then we could begin to see that pollution of our waters were killing the fish. But Big Industry and its supporters fought tooth and nail to continue to pollute or to ignore the signs, saying that the earth could take care of it. But through the perseverance of some we manage to bring back polluted rivers and streams to life and Industry still survived. Today, we hear that all the planets are heating up. Now if this is really true, then why the heck would we want to contribute to the heating up of the earth through the pollution of green house gasses? Do you mean to tell me that we can't believe our lying eyes when we see the disappearance of the polar ice? Who profits financially from the status quo?
Those of us who support clean water or clean air are not anti-industry, we want responsible self-sustaining industry where we all benefit.

reply to post by mc_squared



wake up your talking about yourself as well as any other modern human in USA.

so if you post a article like this , and drive a car (use oil), buy food and not grow your own, use money and or credit. where you could trade your food instead of using money, great dream, possible 200 years ago.

there is not much you can do about things, little things can help.

Try reading Modern Money Mechanics, you'll figure out that the banks don't even have money... its all about loans, its unfair to every person involved that isn't a CEO or upper eichelon business man or Banker.

you could Boycott Walmart and buy American

Hey in case anyone's still following this thread - I wanna mention I started a follow-up with more hard evidence in the Fragile Earth forum.

Check it out

More evidence of who the real enemy is:

Meet the Climate Killers

reply to post by mc_squared


You almost had me going there for a second...

But how you've convinced yourself that the Left's version of the War on Terror isn't the other agenda of the NWO is beyond me.

Oh, right, the liberals and the controlled media, Obama, etc, are really trying to help us all overcome the Establishment. Right...

Seing your drive to prove global warming and some of your words, in this very post, seems to make sense to me now... You're a fervant Zeitgeist Movement type, (i.e. a *Pure Communist*), and this global warming issue is your way of trying to usher people towards that, much like its others way to get funding, in particular environmentalist institutions way to get people hopped up over the environement (even if it isn't true). The Neocon's do the same thing with religion to get people to adhere to the State.

Sorry, but with what I know about ZM, and the modern communist global government movement, I'll have to disagree with you:

The Zeitgeist Movement is *Pure Communism*

Zeitgeist Movement = most hardcore NWO propaganda ever.

On the flip side people can be motivated to conserve their money and seek towards self-sustainabilty and get the same results you're crying out for. Here's a slogan: Don't be stupid, save all the money and be as self-reliant as you can.

PS: GM profits from global warming alarmism same as it does from the MIC.


[edit on 28-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


I don't see where I preached the liberals and Obama are trying to help us overcome the establishment - you're putting words in my mouth.

Everybody has their own agenda to push and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if TPTB on the left side of the fence are just trying to exploit the matter to suit their own greed as well. In fact the longer they stall and goof around on it the more convinced I am that's exactly what's happening.

But the point was the whole Global Warming issue at its core is all about us and not ANY of them. Left or right.

It is supposed to be about waking people up and realizing how much power they have in their own hands to finally cut the chord that the NWO siphons off directly into their filthy pockets.

But so many of those people are simply throwing the scissors away because they're being manipulated into believing it's all just some sort of sinister leftist plot to stab themselves and destroy the economy.

The economy that's completely fake and corrupt and engineered to suit the NWO agenda ALREADY.

And so both sides are very happy to keep this issue muddled in politics and taxes because it once again keeps the sheep asleep and indifferent to the real issues that lie underneath.

This is why I have such a "drive" to prove global warming. Because it is the gateway drug to making regular apathetic people FINALLY realize this.

If you go about preaching to them about how much their lives are controlled by TPTB you're just some conspiracy theory kook. But if you use these same talking points in the context of global warming and social responsibility then suddenly you're hip.

At least you used to be.

Until all the conspiracy theorists went and took this completely relevant, synchronistic and topical tool and just used it to shoot themselves in the foot.

reply to post by mc_squared


You are most correct and it is called survival.

Tell me how to do it another way in this society and time and I will be all ears.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by ofhumandescent]

reply to post by mc_squared


You've already revealed your propaganda agenda:

Global Warming is a scare tactic alright - it's one designed to get people to finally wake the hell up and realize THEY have the power to change the world around them. That includes dismantling this corrupt demonic oligarchy that's keeping us the way we are. How many of you current GW deniers watched Zeitgeist Addendum last year and probably sang it's praises? Do you not remember what Peter Joseph said we need to do to defeat the system? We have to move to a resource based economy, founded first and foremost on clean renewable forms of energy. Why? Because it takes the most important cash cow/control system of the NWO away from them.

As I said, you're trying to push this garbage overhyped fearmongering to drive everyone towards your *Pure Communism* global government transhumanist utopia that goes by the names "Venus Project" & "Zeitgeist Movement" (ZP for short). You've sidestepped my allegations by continuing your broad scoped ranting. Since you'd like to go all over the place I'll respond to some of your other materials here.

These corporate fat cats are crapping themselves over Global Warming because it gives people the platform to finally figure this out for themselves!!

The corporate media represents the Establishment: FACT! And its the corporate media that pushes all of this global warm-ongering: FACT! GE is part of the Big 5 Media, and they push global warming fanatacism: FACT! All the top multinational corporations have a relatively equal stake in the NWO: FACT! Global warmongering is a CRUCIAL element in the NWO agenda: FACT! The IPCC report is fraudulent in many many facets, and overhyped in most of the rest: FACT! The IPCC report is the key compendium that suggests an actual GW "threat": FACT! Therefore, if the IPCC is flawed and fraudulent then there isn't much of a threat: FACT! The solution to global wamring is the same as Zeitgeist (a communistic global government): FACT!

And how many of you have forgotten what these NWO/elitist/MIC/corporate shills repeatedly do to make sure the rest of the sheep don't ever catch on to their scheme?

Exactly. I agree: That's why the global warming alarmist "scientists" withold their data so that others cant verify their work.

They keep the world's attention promptly focused on outside scare tactics that require their protection - like Swine Flu or Terrorism.

You forgot global warming. Global Warming and the economy are just another in a long series of endless power moves peretrated by the Establishment. Oh, but this time its different! They lie about every issue but this one??? No, they've been caught lying on this issue:

Remember: Carbon Tax is mainly applied to big business - costing THEM more money, NOT YOU.

FACT: Carbon Taxes screw EVERYBODY, but those at the top are more able to absolve it.

You're shouting Lib talking points talking about taking down the Establishment that they represent EQUALLY with the Con's. The global warming fraud hysteria is the Establishments left hand at enacting their global communistic government.

Everybody has their own agenda to push and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if TPTB on the left side of the fence are just trying to exploit the matter to suit their own greed as well.

TPTB control both sides. They control the economy, the banks, the corporations, the MIC, the government(s), and so on. They control BOTH parties, and use them to push their agendas and divide the population. They know that not everyone will fall for their lies, so they divide us with them.

Their agenda is control, wealth and Life Extension. The main threat in their worldview is overpopulation, and sure enough global warming is even more antihuman than the wars they carry out to gain their power. They want our health so we live shorter, they want our money and our governments so they can live for hundreds of years via technology. And global warming covers both of these more than war ever could. In short, global warming hysteria more ensures their agenda than their war philosophy that the "Right" promotes in their part of things. After all, both parties support corporatism.

It is supposed to be about waking people up and realizing how much power they have in their own hands to finally cut the chord that the NWO siphons off directly into their filthy pockets.

Which brings us back to the whole motivation I had to even respond to this old thread: This isn't about global warming, its your rally cry to promote your communistic global government agenda, that it, your propaganda fearmongering is really about getting people to jump into the zeitgeist movement philosophy, as proven by your next statement:.

This is why I have such a "drive" to prove global warming. Because it is the gateway drug to making regular apathetic people FINALLY realize this.

Again you admit fearmongering to get people into your ZP philosophy.

If you go about preaching to them about how much their lives are controlled by TPTB you're just some conspiracy theory kook. But if you use these same talking points in the context of global warming...

...then you look like some hysterical liberal nutter.

Some words of advice: Stick to economic issues if you really want to push your ZP utopia. In that case, those 2 threads I linked in are a good place for you to start...
The Zeitgeist Movement is *Pure Communism*

Zeitgeist Movement = most hardcore NWO propaganda ever.

Since you're telling us all to fall into ZP philosophy to fight the NWO, you had better start proving wrong where I've proven that ZP is itself the same communistic global government technocracy as the NWO (but with nicer rhetoric).

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


lol sidestepped your allegations?

Oh gee, I'm sorry - let me get my lawyer on the phone first...

What are you, the ATS Gestapo?



Frankly I've "sidestepped" your McCarthyist allegations because I can't be bothered getting baited into the blatant political trolling nonsense you are trying to engage.

I find it absolutely hilarious that you wrote this:

They control BOTH parties, and use them to push their agendas and divide the population. They know that not everyone will fall for their lies, so they divide us with them.

And yet your entire paranoid little rant is the typical divisive, programmed right-wing rhetoric blaming the liberal media, hysterical liberal nutters, zeitgeist "communists", blah blah blah...

By your own standards you are falling for "their" lies.

So here's another FACT! You are a complete hypocrite.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by mc_squared

 

You are most correct and it is called survival.

Tell me how to do it another way in this society and time and I will be all ears.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by ofhumandescent]

Yes - but there is a huge gap between comfortable survival and the unnecessary excess we are conditioned to believe we need to "survive". Many people simply wait around for guidance and direction from TPTB to provide all the solutions - and then they of course complain about how much TPTB control their lives.

So that's what I'm saying about the global warming issue and the green "agenda". There is no overnight answer, but the first step is simply social awareness and becoming pro-active about the things you can change in your own life without their "help".

This is what they really don't want you thinking about - so instead they've completely convoluted the issue with all the political rhetoric over taxes and what not.

I'll give you one of many examples: plastic

We know the importance of recycling but so many people still take completely for granted how unnecessary a lot of it is in the first place. They load up on grocery store bags like it's free candy or fill their shopping carts with cases of bottled tap water:



So it's just about simple awareness more than anything. Of course the completely brainwashed paranoid hopeless ones like IgnoranceIsntBliss above will just try and tell you this is all radical "communist" propaganda designed to take away your liberty or something. Seriously - there's a thread about it going right now lol.

reply to post by mc_squared


If I down size anymore I will be eating dirt cookies, but yes, great topic!!

reply to post by mc_squared


Wow! I can't believe that I've completely missed this great OP of yours!

Very well written Sir! - If I could give ATS applause you'd certainly have one!

But I'm clapping my hands right now and I give you one standing ovation instead!

Originally posted by mc_squared
lol sidestepped your allegations?

Yeah, and you are again! Instead you resort to ad hominem attacks.

because I can't be bothered getting baited into the blatant political trolling nonsense you are trying to engage.

Dude, I revived your old thread and you're complaining about it.

And yet your entire paranoid little rant is the typical divisive,

Right, I'm paranoid, but you aren't? You simply cannot refute my post so you resort to name calling and insults, but then call me a hypocrite? And I actually figured you might have what it takes to engage a good debate.

programmed right-wing rhetoric blaming the liberal media, hysterical liberal nutters, zeitgeist "communists", blah blah blah...

Notice I smeared both parties? Quote where I said "Liberal Media". I didn't! How embarassing...

I trash communists, corporatists, fascists, and all other tyrants I encounter. You trash "Right Wingers" like its hip and cool and it makes you look rational and smart.

All Democrats are insane, but not one of them knows it. None but the Republicans. All the Republicans are insane, but only the Democrats can perceive it. The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane.

So far I've challenged your philosophy on all fronts and have yet to get a direct, intelligent response...

Originally posted by mc_squared
I'll give you one of many examples: plastic

We know the importance of recycling but so many people still take completely for granted how unnecessary a lot of it is in the first place. They load up on grocery store bags like it's free candy or fill their shopping carts with cases of bottled tap water:

What does plastic have anything to do with "Global Warming"? If you truly cared about the environment you might realize that global warming alarmism diverts attention and energy away from real-life, undisputable problems like the plastic issue you're now mentioning.