The war between religion and athiesm

Originally posted by MIMRblazin
science and logic wins.
Religion has done nothing but cause wars and conflicts since the beginning of time.

And that statement of yours lacks logic. By saying saying that science wins you are inferring that their is a loser but there is not claim of any contest between science, logic and religion. Saying that religion has done nothing but cause wars you are ignoring a common cause. People have been involved in every war but not religion.

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
Look up the definition of a religion, atheistim is not a religion.

No, atheism is a belief.

Originally posted by MIMRblazin
science and logic wins.
Religion has done nothing but cause wars and conflicts since the beginning of time.

And science gives them the weapons to kill with.

Now, before someone says: "Weapons don't kill, it's the people that kill.", one might say: "Religion doesn't kill either, but the religious people do", so basically it's not very different compared to a man with a gun.



-v

[edit on 3-12-2009 by v01i0]

Just a few questions i ask myself, thought that it was relavent to this post in a way.

Does something exist if you can't see it? When you shut your bedroom door at night how can you 100% be sure what is on the otherside? Therefore if you cant see a god or a supreme being, does he/she/it exist? There is no evidance of a supreme being so does this make evidance that a supreme being doesn't exist?

[edit on 3-12-2009 by SammR]

[edit on 3-12-2009 by SammR]

[edit on 3-12-2009 by SammR]

Yeah - there has gotten to be a ton of bickering and name calling here on ATS. Much of it detracting for could otherwise be good discussion. I've seen people post a fairly well thought-out, articulate point and then end their post with a flame, slur, insult etc.

Why? It just takes away from the whole discussion and turns into nothing but more bickering.

It isn't limited to reglion. Politics is the other main topic this happens in here.

Really, its just about treating people the way you would like to be treated. Talking to people the way you would like to be talked to.

Why is that so difficult??

Maybe we need a little contract with each other like the one below I just whipped up?


Hello,

I am a (please indicate all that apply)

Liberal ( ), Conservative ( ), Independent( ), Athiest( ), Christian, ( ), Jewish ( ), Muslim ( ), Pagan ( ), Hindu ( ), Buddist ( ), Straight ( ), Gay ( )

person and I couldn't help noticing that you are not. In fact, our views seem quite opposite from each other. However, we can still dcuss things as civilized adults. To do this we have to follow by two simple rules.

(1). I will not try to make you into what I am. Do not try to make me into what you are. We are allowed to belive and be different from each other. However, I will try to undertand your views and you will understand mine.

(2). Being different does not make either of us "wrong", "bad", "inferior" or "stupid". We will not state nor imply that it does. We will speak to each other with respect and courtesy. We can disagree. However, we will still treat each other with dignity.

We will do these things because we realize it is how each of us would like to be treated and that doing them will allow us to continue this discussion and hopefully lead us to a greater understanding of each others views. We realize that if we fail to do these things our discussion will likely end in hurt feelings, anger, insults and no understanding of each others views.

Poster A signature ____________


Poster B signature ____________

yeah maybe... or we could just speak to eachother normal instead of wasting time typeing all that out...

reply to post by Frogs


I agree with what you are saying and the bickering has to stop. It never leads to any conversation worthwhile.
sometimes people say im not a rapper and it hurts my feelings.

on the subject of religion and atheist's what do people make of illuminati and knights templar?

Atheism and Religious people are ignorant.

Religious people are ignorant because they think God can break fundamental logic such as existing outside omnipresence.

Atheists are ignorant because they conclude paranormal experience or spiritual phenomenon is non-existent, despite millions of reports "worldwide" of spiritual activity.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by GrandKitaro777]

*sigh*
There are things people are too pig-headed about to concede. There are times and places where everything is valid.

I think it boils down to this: Destructiveness.

Many Atheists have been bullied for a very long time by Faith. For the longest time and still going on: People with religious conviction are given a green light.
I am not an atheist (shock considering some of my posts, no? I am extremely anti-religion, but pro-faith. Go figure.). I simply agree with the intellectual points of Atheism. Namely: Until we die, we wont know what side is real. In the meantime we must live by doing the best we can for those around us. Not via superstition.

However, I for one am tired of many situations that are common place.

A set of religious parents decide they will pray instead of taking their toddler to a doctor. The Toddler dies. Another set of parents do not take their kid to the doctor because they cannot afford it. Which one serves the longer sentence in prison? Until a recent case, the religious just got a shoulder shrug.

Other situations I have directly witnessed at work: "You are going to hell because you X" chanted over and over for days on end. Target complains to religious boss, Target is fired.

Of course, I am in UT where there are secret tests in interviews like the interviewer offering coffee to see if the person being interviewed is part of the chosen.

My opinion is religion is destructive. Not faith, not spirituality. But the gathering of people who then try and spread the power of their righteousness. Most the religious I have mentioned that to agree.. so long as I am talking about Muslims and not them.

Then there is the teacher in California who mentioned ID is superstition. A single student sued and the rest is a google click away.

The problem with Atheist mentality stems from years of being the target of socially acceptable hate. In much the same way gays are constant targets. Though I think Atheists are seen as a greater evil by most of the flock.

Years of this has IMO lead to disgust and revulsion: When someone mentions Jesus you can see an Atheists hackles rise. It has also led to a blind spot. Faith is a great help in the individual life. From coping to loss or other personal issues. The conflict then becomes worse because to an Atheist they are attacking wilful ignorance. Yet they are truly attacking the very sense of identity in a faithful.

To the faithful they are attacking the sickness that could lead to someone being in hell, or allowing it to spread and possibly eternally damn others by no commenting. In reality they are proving the atheist right (to the ahteist)-that the faith has led to blind hate.

Now before someone comments: In NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM am I saying atheists reject religion because they are throwing a tantrum-like seems stated by all sorts of groups. I have never met an atheist like this. Most atheists simply see no evidence on the pro side (and there really is no quantifiable evidence.). From there they walk their path.

So how about everyone stops with these almost daily posts taking one side or the other and instead try and find common ground in the other threads on this site?
yeah.. like that will happen

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
reply to post by Lostinthedarkness

 

Look up the definition of a religion, atheistim is not a religion.

I'm a little confused what religion do you want us to look up? and if you meant look up the definition of the word religion which is what I did it seems to me that atheism is in fact a religion.

re⋅li⋅gion
–noun a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Originally posted by GrandKitaro777
Atheism and Religious people are ignorant.

So what about people in between, are they ignorant too, doesnt that make you ignorant for not even considering them? I'm not trying to start an argument here just merely stating it as i see it.

Originally posted by wassy

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
reply to post by Lostinthedarkness

 

Look up the definition of a religion, atheistim is not a religion.

I'm a little confused what religion do you want us to look up? and if you meant look up the definition of the word religion which is what I did it seems to me that atheism is in fact a religion.

re⋅li⋅gion
–noun a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Except the whole: "when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances" part.

Atheism at it's core rejects supernatural events and entities. A lack of faith does not constitute a religion. That being said many atheists are certainly cliquey and fanatical. But, religion it aint.

I don't think it's a war either; hell, not even a skirmish. I think what is occurring here on ATS is one of two facets:

1) People who wish to paint with a broad brush -- generalizing -- which cubbyholes both athiests and people of faith into this or that box. My own observation is that people with faith often embrace science -- they see science as describing the universe, and see faith and religion as another language for doing the same. I also know folks who proclaim their atheism, and yet feel a oneness or an identification with nature. Both faith-centric and atheism cling to a dogma of sorts. Who really cares about others' spirituality or lack of it? I certainly don't. It all makes for potentially good discussions as long as we don't fall into the trap of "you're wrong, I'm right." What a load of crap that arguement is. Nobody really knows for certain.

2) There are those, in my humble opinion, that seek to bait and make statements that infer that the other is less than intelligent. We even see this on the 9/11 forums [anyone with more than the brains of a monkey can see that X is the case]. Are we still in junior high school? No, we are not. Regardless of our temporal placement, we are expected to act as thinking beings. If you make statements that accuse the "other" as being foolish or unknowing, be prepared to get heat. Trouble is, I believe there are more than a few folks here at ATS that absolutely LOVE the heat. I'm all in for a good debate. Pissing matches piss me off -- nobody wins, nobody is enlightened, nothing is learned or taught.

I fall back on a statement I made in an earlier thread similar to this one: If a discussion has flow, and people are contributing and then someone interjects some inappropriate scripture, then alert it, and let the mods deal with it. In that instance, it is clearly off-topic. On the other hand, if you, the OP, pose a question and ask, "what do you think?".... if someone responds with scripture, that is not necessarily off-topic -- you asked, they answered.

It doesn't have to be so dramatic and it doesn't have to be difficult. People believe all manner of things that I don't. Some things that people profess to KNOW for certain, I don't know, but am receptive to. What is so hard about that?

No war. It's just a part of being human, and perhaps part of being behind an internet screenname, feeling comfortable in your own avatar. Just be yourself, let your flaws show, speak your mind.

Laugh! Your body loves endorphins.

Originally posted by wassy
I'm a little confused what religion do you want us to look up? and if you meant look up the definition of the word religion which is what I did it seems to me that atheism is in fact a religion.

re⋅li⋅gion
–noun a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Ok, explain where:

1. Atheists gather to worship or devote themselves to a similar belief

2. Atheists divulge in ritual and structural times for worship

3. Devote their lives to following a set of strict guidelines

Im atheist and I dont do any of these things.

Perhaps instead of providing the definition for religion, you should of looked up atheism

atheist (plural atheists):

A person without a belief in, or one who lacks belief in the existence of gods.

A person who believes that no deities exist; one who denies the existence of all gods.

Originally posted by SammR

Originally posted by GrandKitaro777
Atheism and Religious people are ignorant.

So what about people in between, are they ignorant too, doesnt that make you ignorant for not even considering them? I'm not trying to start an argument here just merely stating it as i see it.

Mystics has the ability to intertwine logic with spirituality.

We don't go around saying science is wrong because it goes against some unknown shadowy figure in the sky word. Also we're not science extremists that say spirituality or an "afterlife" is illogical because of our scientists established knowledge. There's a balance in mystics.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by GrandKitaro777]

Mystics has the ability to intertwine logic with spirituality.

We don't go around saying science is wrong because it goes against some unknown shadowy figure in the sky word. Also we're not science extremists that say spirituality or an "afterlife" is illogical because of our scientists established knowledge. There's a balance in mystics.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by GrandKitaro777]

i never said you did, i was just asking on your opinion about the people who believe in elements of both? also what do you mean by Mystics?

[edit on 3-12-2009 by SammR]

reply to post by lordtyp0

I think it boils down to this: Destructiveness.

Yes it does.

Then there is the teacher in California who mentioned ID is superstition. A single student sued and the rest is a google click away.

Well this kind of goes along with the stero-type that athiests can not communicate their opinions without making fun of or degrading others.

Superstition
1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation

There is a belief that the united states has to cater to atheists by making everything secular. It used to be common to see "happy hollidays" on stores and various religious symbols put up as decoration in public places, now i am seeing less and less of that. The jews complained because there were only christian decorations so the star of david was added, others complained so other symbols were added. Now when an atheist complains it all has to go. So everyone else is happy with their beliefs being shown with equality and adding to the holliday displays instead of adding to the scene atheists want the scene gone, that is deconstructive.

My opinion is religion is destructive. Not faith, not spirituality.

May i ask why?

The problem with Atheist mentality stems from years of being the target of socially acceptable hate. In much the same way gays are constant targets. Though I think Atheists are seen as a greater evil by most of the flock.

I do not see how athiests are being targeted the same ways gays are "constant targets". There are no laws against atheists getting married or proposition put into action that would prevent atheists getting married or doing anything for that matter.

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Ok where in the definition does it say that a religion has to have any of those things I think esp., usually, and often where the key words here.

And thank you for providing the definition for Atheism
atheist (plural atheists):

A person without a belief in, or one who lacks belief in the existence of gods.

A person who believes that no deities exist; one who denies the existence of all gods.

hmm sounds alot like the first part of the definition of religion to me, a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe,
Do you not have a set of beliefs that concern the above? I think you probably do otherwise you would not be calling yourself an atheist.

reply to post by zaiger


The Religion thing: Well, simply put any group that gets sufficiently powerful seems to develop a mob mentality. I am under the opinion a Religion (not say a gathering of like minded people.) exists solely to solidify power and then, to exercise that power. Yes this can be said to also be true of any group. However Religion is always treated with kids gloves. One is not supposed to ever question a religious tenet or to say "That doesn't make sense!" without raising all sorts of taboos. Political parties and groups gathered for other means are open gloves.

Case in point: You cited the teacher saying that ID was making fun of religion. Did you forget it's supposed to be science and taught along side in Biology-at least in some states. To says something is not science, or that it is superstition when it is supposed to BE science, isn't mocking religion. Had he said the theory of aether was superstition.. would he be mocking religion?

Correct on the not being able to marry thing. However most the religious claim "Hate the sin, love the sinner." Which at best is an offensive is an absolute lie. However to the faithful, a gay person can still be 'redeemed'. They are just sinners. An Atheist is actively trying to destroy their faith, and attack god. Since all that is moral and just come from God. They must be the embodiment of evil.

Take a quick look at some polls. In various ones people claimed/voted in polls that Atheists were more despicable than a terrorist.

Originally posted by wassy
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

Ok where in the definition does it say that a religion has to have any of those things I think esp., usually, and often where the key words here.

I was trying to decipher the definition....all those big words

And thank you for providing the definition for Atheism
atheist (plural atheists):

A person without a belief in, or one who lacks belief in the existence of gods.

A person who believes that no deities exist; one who denies the existence of all gods.

hmm sounds alot like the first part of the definition of religion to me, a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe,
Do you not have a set of beliefs that concern the above? I think you probably do otherwise you would not be calling yourself an atheist.

No, I simply dont believe in a god or divine entity. Im not following a path which requires me to conform to certain guidelines to be considered an atheist as many religions do, I simply have no belief in god or a god equivalent. Atheism isnt about hating or organising against religion (although some atheists think that way), but generally wwe simply dont believe in a god.