The Lord's Prayer - A Closer Look

The study of the Lord's prayer in various subcultures gives the overtones of the culture with which one can relate to the various cultures.

Does anyone have and watch the "Adult Swim" Show?
I love a series on this called "Moral Orel". My favorite and saddest show is the Lord's Prayer episode, where Orel falls in love.
In that episode the family gets Christians neighbours, and they are virtual reflections of one another. That is until they say the Lord's prayer before supper. One dad says the "debtor's prayer", and the other the "transgressor's prayer". That is the end of the fundamentalist "friendship'.
Is that just poetic lisense for the show, or is there a real simmering dislike on these interpretations?
Why have a deptors and transgressors prayer anyway? One version for exploiters and another for the exploited?
Synopsis (en.wikipedia.org...)
"18 211 "The Lord's Prayer" January 15, 2007 (2007-01-15)
A new family, the Posabules moves in next door and initially, everyone gets along with Orel being smitten with their daughter, Christina. However, the families have a falling out over the interpretation of the Lord's Prayer with the new family advocating forgiving debt and the Puppington's advocating forgiving trespassing. As a result, the parents become bitterly estranged and Orel is banned from seeing Christina. However, Orel and Christina meet up in secret but fearful of the consequences of going against tradition, he runs away from her. After a meeting with Reverend Putty, Orel is told that if he goes against the Lord's Prayer, he'll go to hell. In the end, Christina moves away with her family and they take Shapey whom no one noticed had been taken accidentally the entire episode."




[edit on 1-12-2009 by halfoldman]

[edit on 1-12-2009 by halfoldman]

Well, in addition to 'Amen' there are also references, that Amen can be understood as Kether, which is the top sephira in the tree of life; Amen being another name for Kether - or that is at least what Violet Mary Firth Evans (aka Dion Fortune) claims in her Mystical Qabalah (see page 110, also this).

It makes sense though - as Amen (the egyptian god) was considered to be highest of gods by Egyptians in their mythology, one without father and mother, thus self created - Kether is the highest emanation of Sepiroth as in the tree of life and other Sepiroth are emanated from it.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


So a true Christian god is perceived as a pagan, and this is implied on a set of most unimaginable profoundly confusing decrypted ancient graphical writings on the stone wall?

reply to post by halfoldman



good post.

This would display a "pop" culture interpretation of the Lords Prayer.

Compare with the 1970 number one world wide hit the Lords prayer and compare method of delivery into NA culture and western culture.

wr

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reply to post by krystalice

No, it seems to be a division based on ecunumical councils and translations that began three centuries after the alleged death of Christ and His apostles.
First it was a matter of dividing Christianity from Judaism, and now believers must entangle the resulting mess themselves.
I would just relax: Christianity and paganism are just labels after all.
As long as agricultural peoples had grain and bread (give us this day our daily bread) - what's the difference?
When there's no more grain, and we starve, then we can argue on who was wrong all along, and who should hence become the next meal!

[edit on 1-12-2009 by halfoldman]

reply to post by whiteraven


The version I posted was the Old English version of the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13), as given in the West Saxon Gospels

The 7 main Anglo-Saxon kingdoms which were collectivly named the heptachy. while each kingdom still had a definitive identity and dialect, for example the South Saxon kingdom (or Suth Seax) is now the county of Sussex.. Wessex derives from the West Saxons and Essex the East Saxons, hence my use of the term Saxon.

One of the predominant lanquages written in Old English was West Saxon, that's why we still have the West Saxon gospels/psalms

map of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.


This is the Northumbrian version of the Lords prayer from c650 AD
FADER USÆR ðu arðin heofnu
Sie gehalgad NOMA ÐIN.
Tocymeð RÍC ÐIN.
Sie WILLO ÐIN
suæ is in heofne and in eorðo.
HLAF USERNE of'wistlic sel ús todæg,
and f'gef us SCYLDA USRA,
suæ uoe f'gefon SCYLDGUM USUM.
And ne inlæd usih in costunge,
ah is in heofne and in eorðo.

But I have no idea how to translate it (but no Amen in this version either)

This would have come from the Romano-British and Celtic Christian church rather than the Roman church, note the similarities between the Northumbrian and West Saxon versions.

The way I see it is the earlier versions are influenced by the Romano-British and Celtic Christianity, where as the later versions are influenced directly by Rome.

The early versions talk about guilt(sin) where as the later versions talk about debt/debtor, which I find an interesting transition to make, as we seem to have moved onto trespass/tresspasses.

[edit on 1/12/09 by thoughtsfull]

Unfortunately there was no age of the prayer available, furthermore I have no idea if it's credibility. But it includes Amen, and probably also the kingdom, power and glory parts.

Galilean transliteration of the Lord's Prayer:

Avvon d-bish-maiya, nith-qaddash shim-mukh.
Tih-teh mal-chootukh. Nih-weh çiw-yanukh:
ei-chana d'bish-maiya: ap b'ar-ah.
Haw lan lakh-ma d'soonqa-nan yoo-mana.
O'shwooq lan kho-bein:
ei-chana d'ap kh'nan shwiq-qan l'khaya-ween.
Oo'la te-ellan l'niss-yoona:
il-la paç-çan min beesha.
Mid-til de-di-lukh hai mal-choota
oo khai-la oo tush-bookh-ta l'alam al-mein.
Aa-meen.

Source

Also, here seems to be Aramaic version, the words 'malkuth' and 'amen' clearly visible:


-v

[edit on 1-12-2009 by v01i0]

Groupies--

Here is a more Palestinian-Messianic-Jewish translation into Modern American English from the mangled Greek texts of this 'prayer' (the versions in the Q source found in the late 4th century 4 Greek Canonical gospel copies of 'Matthew' and 'Luke' do not match each other very exactly)
which is placed into the 'Greek speaking mouth' of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (Gk. 'Iesous')"

" Abba ! (Aram. 'daddy')
who tabernacles in the Heavens ('BaShamayim')

May your Name (haShem) be Sacred [among the goyim] !

May your Kingdom come (soon) !

May your Will be performed here on earth (=below)
as your Will is already performed in the Heavens (above)


Provide us To-day with enough bread for Tomorrow
and forgive us our sins of Ommission (=passive sins)
as we forgive those who have committed Sins of Commission against us (=active sins).

And lead us not into the Ways of Temptation
but deliver us from Beli'al ('the evil one').

Blessed be you, O YHWH ('Adonoi'), the god of Yisro'el !

For to you alone belongs the Malkuth ('Kingdom'),
and the Q'oz (might)
['and the Battle' might have been here originally]
and the Cavod ('glory')
Olam ve Olam ! (i.e. for all eternity).

Omeyn (aka 'amen' i.e. 'so let it be done')."

You'll notice that line (12 above) viz. the explicit reference to YHWH the clan god of Yisro'el is missing from the later post-Jewish War Greek MSS in the 1st Greek canonical council approved Gospel ('Matthew' whoever he was) and the entire last section is removed altogther from the 3rd Gospel's version of this prayer in most of the older Greek MSS (being too Jewish and too war like and less universal (refernces of Israel are often removed in the gospel citations from Hebrew writings e.g. the 4th gospel, 'for it is written: the Salvation of Israel shall come from the Judaeans' is written in Greek as 'for [it is written] 'Salvation is from the Jews'--a total misappropriation of the original intent of the text of the Testament of Naphtali 8:13 found amongs the Dead Sea Scrolls (dated c. 120 BCE)

We see a similar phrase in the hymns among the Dead Sea material elsewhere:

e.g. 'Blessed be YHWH the clan god of Yisro'el
for Thine is the Power
and the Glory
and the Might
and the Battle, for ever and ever'

which is an excerpt from the War Scroll = 1QM from cave 1 of the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran--

It seems that overt references to 1QM warlike anti Roman battle language was avoided in the canonical Greek gospels since it was after all deemed to be politically offensive to the occupying Romans at the time).

The phrase 'Praise to Thee, (or in some other citations 'Blessed art Thou') O YHWH the clan-god of Yisro'el for thine is the power' &tc. is taken from the Prayer of David 1 Chronicles 29:10-11 at the Dedication of the 1st Temple of YHWH at Jerusalem: the Messiah Nazir (Zech 6:9) was of course supposed to re-build the temple ('Behold the Man who is called the Nazir, he shall rebuild the temple of YHWH !')

see: 1 Chronicles 29:10-11 in MT version

"Praise be to Thee, O YHWH, the clan-god of our father Israel,
even from everlasting to everlasting!

11 For Thine O YHWH is the kingdom;
Thou art exalted as head over all !

And Thine is the Greatness
and the Power
and the Glory
and the Majesty
and the Splendor

For indeed everything in heaven and on the earth belongs to Thee ! "

We can see at a glance that a line has been left out of the socalled 'Lord's Prayer' because the last phrase begins with the word FOR, which is impossible without a referent e.g. '(Blessed art Thou O YHWH, FOR thine is the kingdom...') with the word FOR meaning 'insasmuch' or 'because...'

Either way the 3rd Gospel cut the whole last section out completely--so in actual fact we have no real idea WHAT form this prayer originally took or whether it was a later fabrication from a number of prayers of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir smashed together into a single prayer...which betrays signs of having been shortened from an originally longer string of utterances (such as we find in the socalled Sermon on the Mount in the 1st Greek Canonical Gospel 'Matthew' (whoever he was) chapters 5 through 7 where various sayings over a 5+ year period were smashed into an artificial sermon (linked together by catch words) and cast into a frame representing 'Iesous' like a New Moses (or The Prophet Like Unto Moses...referred to in the book of Numbers) addressing the New Law to the New Israel from, signficantly, a Mountain top...

reply to post by Sigismundus


That was interesting, thanks for sharing

It has always puzzled me why there are non gloss bibles translation of the Vulgate in Saxon dialects (old English) that's always puzzled me, and the question has has me intrigued, if didn't use the Vulgate, what did they use!

reply to post by v01i0


You are to pray to GOD using the words of Jesus as an "outline" not repeated word for word.

I find it interesting how you can just make all this up without any reference to Hebrew/Aramaic roots and Greek meaning of the word translated 'kingdom' in English.

What about local and cultural idiom?

reply to post by troubleshooter


Believe it or not, I can make almost anything up - I have an good imagination!

Besides, have you read whole thread? There are both Galilean and Aramaic references. Try this one.

-v

[edit on 2-12-2009 by v01i0]

Originally posted by troubleshooter
I find it interesting how you can just make all this up without any reference to Hebrew/Aramaic roots and Greek meaning of the word translated 'kingdom' in English.

What about local and cultural idiom?

Which was why I brought in the Old English (West Saxon) translations, for example the West Saxon psalms (Paris Psalter) are a gloss of the Vulgate, with the latin written on the left hand side and the West Saxon translation on the rights, knowing this is based on the vulgate enables us to trace it's history.

Sources
link to the first 50 psalms in Latin/West Saxon
www.aug.edu...

Relationship between Roman and Gallican Psalters
www.aug.edu...

If we were then to move from Wessex (West Saxon) across the border and in to Sussex (South Saxon) the dialect changes, for example even until recently the Sussex dialect included the reduplicated plural.. an example of which can be found in Rudyard Kiplings Puck of Pook's Hill which uses the plural, 'pharisees' for fairies.

So the question could be asked, did the South Saxons think the pharisees of the bible were mythical fairies? now that would place the bible/lords prayer in a completly different local perspective.

Source - Dictionary of the Sussex Dialect 1875
www.sussexhistory.co.uk...