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The Lord's Prayer - A Closer Look

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posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 06:03 AM
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Hello,

Almost everybody, especially Christians, are familiar with Lord's Prayer, allegedly teached by Jesus Christ, son of the Christian God, Yahweh.

Uncritical and unquestionably religious mind usually just repeats this prayer without giving it the consideration it requires; we should however, for it might give decent clues for those who are willing to look beyond the veil of religions, into the esoteric and occult world of psychology.

The last lines might be most revealing: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen"

First, the kingdom is a plain reference to qabalistic Sephira called Malkuth, meaning the 'kingdom' - or rather the material emanation of spirit. In other words, it stands (according to Qabalah) for earth and everything that is material, the planets, the man and so forth.

Power is another qabalistic reference, for it points to the Sephira Geburah, which is also known as 'Power'. It is placed in the pillar of severity, at the tree of life. Geburah is the balancing Sephira for Chesed, which is love (also glory), as shown below.

Glory is yet another qabalistic reference for emanations, it referes to the Sephira called Chesed, which means 'love' - but Chesed has also another name: 'Gedulah', meaning the 'Glory'. Chesed balances the war-like properties of Geburah as it is placed in the pillar of mercy at the tree of life.

The Lord's Prayer then comes into it's conclusion by the 'Amen', which is a reference to Egyptian god Amun, also know as Amen.

All this alone points into the direction that a standard Christians (those who are unaware of preceeding) have no clue what they are worshipping, and also that the alleged Jesus Christ (whom ever he might've been) combined Qabalistic teachings with Egyptian mythology. Why would Christians want to invoke a pagan god Amen?

We may discuss about it.

-v

[edit on 1-12-2009 by v01i0]




posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 07:24 AM
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TextPower is another qabalistic reference, for it points to the Sephira Geburah, which is also known as 'Power'. It is placed in the pillar of severity, at the three of life. Geburah is the balancing Sephira for Chesed, which is love (also glory), as shown below.


What is the three of life?



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 07:36 AM
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I would be interested in reading a more in depth analysis of the prayer if you are so inclined. While the last line is interesting, understanding it within the context of the whole prayer would be more interesting.

tamale



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 07:36 AM
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Reading the New Testament with info on kabbalah is sort of interesting. Fire and water have different meanings, such as the right and left respectively. Ever wonder why Jesus sits on the right side of God in heaven? The right side on the tree of life is the masculine side. So some of these things you'd think are random but its not, even the minor details can give some good info if you know how to read it.

But really, you're thinking you're clever in pointing out that Christians are invoking a pagan god, but when it comes down to it, we can only perceive things from sensory input from our brain, so we can't know the outside world even though we think we have eyes to see. So what does it matter? There is only one God. And the experience a person has is what's important.

A person can worship the devil and still "go to heaven" or whatever. Think not? well that's sorta dumb, just change the name Jesus with Lucifer and drop some Bibles on a tribe somewhere, and there are a good group of Christians




[edit on 1-12-2009 by ghaleon12]



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 07:41 AM
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reply to post by v01i0
 



The last lines might be most revealing: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen"

This line isn't contained the in the earliest manuscripts that scholars possess, thus it was added at some other time, making it not part of Jesus' teaching. (It first appears in the fifth century.) It's interesting to note as well that this doxology isn't contained in Luke's (11:2-4) parallel reading. The phrase was likely part of an early Christian liturgy, which was based off of 1 Chronicles 29:11-13, and eventually made it's way into the text some how.


The Lord's Prayer then comes into it's conclusion by the 'Amen', which is a reference to Egyptian god Amun, also know as Amen.

No. Amen means "we agree" or "let it be so". Beyond that, by saying this, you're trying to force modern English pronunciations onto ancient Egyptian words. "Amen"/"Amon" apparently isn't even how the Egyptians would've said this God's name anyway; it's just one way that he's referred to as in English (among several other names which don't sound like "amen" at all—Amun, Amoun, Imen, Ammon, and Hammon). Based on the wiki page that you linked to, the reconstructed Egptian pronunciation is Yamānu. Pronounced Yah-may-nu. That's not even close to "amen"!



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 07:51 AM
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Also I am ccurious about "seeking first the Kingdom of God" as i would enjoy reading the Christian Kabbalah point of view.

WR



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 08:27 AM
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This version of The Lord's Prayer is presented in the standardised OE West Saxon dialect c10th Century with a line by line translation into Modern English. (my people, the South Saxons would have spoken a dialect similar to this)

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum
Father ours, thou that art in heaven,

Si þin nama gehalgod.
Be thy name hallowed.

To becume þin rice,
Come thy rich (kingdom),

gewurþe ðin willa, on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
Worth (manifest) thy will, on earth also as in heaven.

Urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
Our daily loaf sell (give) us today,

and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
And forgive us our guilts as also we forgive our guilty

And ne gelæd þu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfele.
And lead thou us not in temptation, but loose (release) us of evil.

Soþlice
Soothly

Which is missing all your points... and Amen appears to be dropped from all the Saxon versions I know of... there is an older OE version c650AD, but I have no idea how to translate it..

So I guess I'm asking the question, The Aramaic version has Amên so how did the OE version drop it? and how did we end up in the version we have today!

Below are the versions I know off in English..

The Lord's Prayer Dated 1384 AD
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.

The Lord's Prayer Dated 1611AD (King James Bible)
Our father which art in heauen,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth as it is in heauen.
Giue us this day our daily bread.
And forgiue us our debts as we forgiue our debters.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliuer us from euill.
Amen.

The Lord's Prayer Dated (1700-)
Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever
Amen

Edit, removed missing note...


[edit on 1/12/09 by thoughtsfull]



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 08:56 AM
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reply to post by whiteraven
 



Originally posted by whiteraven
What is the three of life?


Well that is a typo.


Tree of Life however is a metaphysical conception of life in general, as proposed by Qabalah, ancient hebrew tradition. But I think that you knew it


-v



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 08:57 AM
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reply to post by ghaleon12
 


No, I don't think I am clever. Are you?

-v



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by octotom
No. Amen means "we agree" or "let it be so". Beyond that, by saying this, you're trying to force modern English pronunciations onto ancient Egyptian words. "Amen"/"Amon" apparently isn't even how the Egyptians would've said this God's name anyway; it's just one way that he's referred to as in English (among several other names which don't sound like "amen" at all—Amun, Amoun, Imen, Ammon, and Hammon). Based on the wiki page that you linked to, the reconstructed Egptian pronunciation is Yamānu. Pronounced Yah-may-nu. That's not even close to "amen"!


Yes, Amen is translated as 'so be it', but I regard the root of the word to be more important. In my opinion even Yamānu is pretty close to Amen.

Amun, reconstructed Egyptian Yamānu (also spelled Amon, Amoun, Amen, and rarely Imen, Greek Ἄμμων Ammon, and Ἅμμων Hammon),
The same source.

-v



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:11 AM
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reply to post by v01i0
 



n my opinion even Yamānu is pretty close to Amen.

It may look that way (when the y, u, and second a are disregarded), when you're using Latin letters, but in reality, it's not pronounced even close. And the pronunciation is what's important since it would've been originally written in hieroglyphics.

Ya→said "yah" like the German "ja".
→ The dash over the a tells us that it's a long vowel sound. The m would be normal. Thus the second syllable would be said like "may".
nu→ pronounced like "noo".

Yah-may-noo. That's light years away from "amen". (Ah-men).

The alternate spellings really aren't that important. They're just there for easier reading/speaking. The important name is what stems from reconstructed Egyptian.

Of course still, this is all assuming that the doxology in Matthew's version of the Lord's prayer is original, which modern textual criticism says it ain't!

[edit on 12/1/2009 by octotom]



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by thoughtsfull
So I guess I'm asking the question, The Aramaic version has Amên so how did the OE version drop it? and how did we end up in the version we have today!


That is a good question. According to the info you've provided it seems that original Lord's Prayer was something quite different than we have today. Why is this, I have no idea. I have to suggest that it is tampered intentionally, but for what goals, who knows. The people who have translated them, are long gone and we cannot ask their account of their reasons.

In the end, considering Moses and other Christian figures had been influenced with Egyptian beliefs, I find it to be not coincidence that we have word Amen included.

To be honest, I am as puzzled as the next guy; I have no answers, I am merely making an inquiry. But to my opinion, it is somewhat appropriate also to inquire the Lord's Prayer as we know it today, but also it is important to keep in mind the historical aspects, which you and octotom so kindly provided.

-v



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by octotom
 


Thanks, I may have to take a closer look of that as well.

-v



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:18 AM
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First, the kingdom is a plain reference to qabalistic Sephira called Malkuth, meaning the 'kingdom' - or rather the material emanation of spirit. In other words, it stands (according to Qabalah) for earth and everything that is material, the planets, the man and so forth.

Power is another qabalistic reference, for it points to the Sephira Geburah, which is also known as 'Power'. It is placed in the pillar of severity, at the tree of life. Geburah is the balancing Sephira for Chesed, which is love (also glory), as shown below.

Glory is yet another qabalistic reference for emanations, it referes to the Sephira called Chesed, which means 'love' - but Chesed has also another name: 'Gedulah', meaning the 'Glory'. Chesed balances the war-like properties of Geburah as it is placed in the pillar of mercy at the tree of life.


reply to post by v01i0
 



We might agree...but not on the same analysis...

the 'Qabalah' may indeed have a major presence in understanding the 'Lords Prayer'...
but more importantly...
we collectively have to realize that Kabala = Qabalah
is the 'Mystery Babylon'

? were you ready for that ?
dosen't that square with the 'many shall be deceived' prophecy...
And, Indeed the whole of Christianity IS making supplication to a heresy which is 'Mystery Babylon' , even AEgypt, where also the Christ was cruicified



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:19 AM
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reply to post by octotom
 


Also, one has to keep in mind how the Hebrews may have spelled Egyptian Yahmanu. I could imagine they had their own way to spell it, not necessarily the one you stated above.

But as I said, I will be looking into the matter.

-v



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:19 AM
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Just because a word sounds 'close' to what another word sounds like does not mean they are the same or even have the same origins.

I do agree with your underlying theme...no religion can be trusted as the sole 'truth' giver.



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by St Udio
 


Hi St Udio,

I was aware (as far as I can) that Qabalah is not originally Hebrew invention. It has mixed parts from Babylon and also from Chaldea. I think.

-v



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:48 AM
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reply to post by v01i0
 


With out a doubt they had a way to spell it; assuming that they would've had a need for it. But that doesn't mean that the word "amen" comes from it. Especially since ancient Egyptian and Hebrew are two completely different languages. It could be the that the word would have been transliterated into the Hebrew language, much like it is today, and like many Bible terms were transliterated into English.



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by thoughtsfull
 

Thoughtsfull!

Star for you!

What a intriguing study! The History and exportation of the Lords Prayer into various subgroups.

The Saxon version is the version you posted?

Please explain Saxon...or did I mis..understand!? Saxon 10th century!


www.newadvent.org...


The version itself, which accords pretty closely with the translation in Tyndale's New Testament, no doubt owed its general acceptance to an ordinance of 1541 according to which "his Grace perceiving now the great diversity of the translations (of the Pater noster etc.) hath willed them all to be taken up, and instead of them hath caused an uniform translation of the said Pater noster, Ave, Creed, etc. to be set forth, willing all his loving subjects to learn and use the same and straitly commanding all parsons, vicars and curates to read and teach the same to their parishioners". As a result the version in question became universally familiar to the nation, and though the Rheims Testament, in 1581, and King James's translators, in 1611, provided somewhat different renderings of Matthew 6:9-13, the older form was retained for their prayers both by Protestants and Catholics alike.


Seems that we had quite a few renditions of the Lords prayer going around.

When was the edict given? About 500 years after your posted version.

The Latin Version was the oldest i have seen.

Although note that the Lord's prayer is different in Luke then it is in Matthew.

So the question is whose version is correct?

Matthew's or Luke's?

Or is that misdirection? Is the very nature of the "groanings that cannot be uttered" manifest istself in the various forms across various cultures even without the help of evangelists.

For example their are reports (rumours) within the walls of the history of Christiandom that even the uneducated (unchurched) as well as those whom have never had contact with Western Civilization knowing the Pater noster/.










[edit on 1-12-2009 by whiteraven]



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 11:51 AM
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since nobody posted it


The god of this Earth is the ruler of the horizon.
The god is for making great his name. Devote yourself to the adoration of his name.
Give your god existence.
He will do your business
His likenesses are upon the Earth.
[God] is given incense and food offerings daily.
The god will judge the true and honest.
Guard against the things that god abominates.
Preserve me from decay.
God) is the king of the horizon.
He magnifies whoever magnifies him.
Let tomorrow be as today.

That is the egyptian version, it is called the Maxims of Ani.
The stuff about Malkuth and Geburah does not mean much to me, i mean you could say that give us our daily bread is a reference the greek godess Demeter and that would not make it so.

[edit on 1-12-2009 by zaiger]



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