Non-Obese Section, please!

But, zazz, you're assuming that overeating is making them fat. That's not the case.

While emotions can cause us to eat certain foods, and even more often, it's not the simple act of emotional eating that is causing fat deposition.

Carbohydrates are very addictive. And they spike insulin. If there is no presence of insulin in the blood, it is impossible to gain fat. And if there's too much, you'll never lose fat, regardless of caloric quantity.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


But Devo, there is a trigger for the behaviour and the chemical addictions.
You would be the only person on this planet who can separate their emotion from the behaviour patterns. Every emotion and behaviour releases a peptide that can be addictive or act as a block.
The choice of wrong food is 2ndary cause of the obesity, the trigger is the head coupled with some genetic imprinting. The obsessive behaviour leading to obesity can be passed down in DNA from mothers....want some research on it?




[edit on 13-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]

reply to post by zazzafrazz


No thanks, I've seen it. You linked it before.

So you're assuming that emotions are driving hunger? And are you also assuming that EVERY obese/overweight person has emotional attatchments to certain foods?

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


I didnt specify EVERY, so stop yelling at me cranky pants.

It is emotional, combined with peptide addiction to that behaviour, every thought, behaviour or emotion releases a chemical, peptides that find little villi to satisfy in your body. And ALSO combined with what you say keeps them obese and makes them more obese, its not one or the other, its both of what we are saying, Im just disagreeing with you wholeheartedly that the head has nothing to do with the obesisty, its the trigger.

EDIT: Oh and Im not saying its an emotional attachment to food, its an attachment to a emotion, such as low self esteem etc that they continue by the battle of overeating

[edit on 12-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]

If emotional attachments are driving obesity, then it would be nearly impossible to treat it by restricting calories....making the patient emotionally attached AND hungry. It's a lose-lose situation.

However, if you understand that treating obesity can be by simply restricting certain foods and allowing free consumption of total calories, then the hunger is gone, making it easier to control emotional eating habits.

-Dev

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

I didnt specify EVERY, so stop yelling at me cranky pants.

Who's yelling?

Im just disagreeing with you wholeheartedly that the head has nothing to do with the obesisty, its the trigger.

I don't think I said it has nothing to do with obesity. I said it's not the underlying cause.

EDIT: Oh and Im not saying its an emotional attachment to food, its an attachment to a emotion, such as low self esteem etc that they continue by the battle of overeating

I know, it's just easier to say emotional attatchment. And.....overeating is not causing obesity. It's a symptom of obesity.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


Your a stubborn little Texan arent you?
OK proxy, your now quoting and debate point retaliating...fine

Ok, so Ill ask you about anorexics, this is a mind disease, they are skinny as a result of restricting their calories yes, but the restriction is a result of self issues and comes from the mind.
Obese people are no different, it is also self worth emotional addiction that results in different physical outcomes.
The intake/restriction of calories are a result of another driver.
Why is when people lose weight they over 90% of the time put it back on with more, it is a return to a behavioural pattern driven by peptides.
Poor obese people dont get the same compassion as anorexics, as its implied they are fat and lazy, rather than battling emotional trauma.

Spend some time in a anorexic clinic and tell them its simply because of their calories and not their emotions and mind that they are ill.

You cant treat the symptom without managing the cause.


[edit on 12-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

Your a stubborn little Texan arent you?

Ok, so Ill ask you about anorexics, this is a mind disease, they are skinny as a result of restricting their calories yes, but the restriction is a result of self issues and comes from the mind.
Obese people are no different, it is also self worth emotional addiction thaqt results in a different outcome.
The intake/restriction of calories are a result of another driver.
Why is when people lose weight they over 90% of the time put it back on with more, it is a return to a behavioural pattern driven by peptides.
Poor obese people dont get the same compassion as anorexics, as its implied they are fat and lazy, rather than battling emotional trauma.

Spend some time in a anorexic clinic and tell them its simply because of their calories and not their emotions and mind that they are ill.

You cant treat the symptom without managing the cause.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]

I agree on a personal level that emotional and behavioural patterns were the driving force with me, though I can't speak for everyone.

From around age 19 till last year I went through a huge stage of depression and eventually agoraphobia, I went right up to 23st 12lb through emotional overeating, worst period of my life(so far) then I decided enough was enough and set out to lose it all.

Now being me I seem to go from one extreme to another, if i'm not doing something really strict I CAN'T do it properly, so I ate 800 calories a day for 8 month and lost 6 stone, now this was STUPID, i know this now, I even passed out a few times and split my nose open due to how much I was eating, but it got me a long way luckily and i'm still dieting now, I have two and a half stone to lose to be in my ''normal range'' but I eat around 1300-1500 calories a day now(and haven't passed out since ) and restrict my carbs like mad, because I only have to look at a packet of crisps or chocolate bar, get those feelings again and put a pound on(not literally, but you know what I mean )

reply to post by valiant


I wish you the very best V. Its a hard path, but remember be kind to your head and heart and that will help keep it off.

Cheers zazzy

reply to post by zazzafrazz


Thanks zazz

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

Your a stubborn little Texan arent you?
OK proxy, your now quoting and debate point retaliating...fine

Don't cry...little one.

Anorexics, for the most part(and don't quote me, I've never studied the subject intesnsely) are driven by a psychological disease, sure. Although, there are instances in which physiological diseases are the cause. Perhaps lack or overproduction of certain hormones, or perhaps tumors/lesions, or hyperthyroidism.

In comparison, however, to obesity, anorexia is hardly a prevalent disease. Wouldn't you expect a similar pattern of incidence if both diseases were caused by the same problem? An example of this would be... diabetes and obesity. Both are caused by the same underlying problem and incidences of have increased exponentially and similarly.

I would possibly agree with you if obesity were caused by overeating. If this were the case then it would be a logical conclusion to assume that if overeating causes obesity and undereating causes anorexia, then both are the opposite ends of a spectrum that is defined by one ultimate cause. Unfortunately, overeating is a symptom of being fat, not a mechanism of causality.

You cant treat the symptom without managing the cause.

That's precisely what I'm conveying. You're confusing cause and effect. A positive energy balance will not cause fat deposition if insulin is not present.

BTW, they used to treat anorexics, that were so because of a loss of appetite, with insulin injections. Insulin increases hunger and regulates fat storage. So more insulin=more fat. But that's just a side note.

-Dev

quick question:

Anyone ever seen an obese Amish person, as in, someone who lives an active lifestyle and eats healthy food? If so, let me know. It could either help or hurt my argument.

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

Why is when people lose weight they over 90% of the time put it back on with more, it is a return to a behavioural pattern driven by peptides.

LOL...now you're making stuff up. :p

Maintaining a negative energy balance(restricting calories) will make you very hungry, all the time. The reason why people can't keep weight off is because of hunger. The body keeps sending hunger signals because it's being starved and once to return a homeostatic energy balance.

Another reason why people put the weight back on, based on my own observations/practice, is because when the weight is lost, they return to their old habits.

-Dev

reply to post by bettermakings


Lack of physical activity is not making people fat.

Go to a marathon....and look at all of the flabby people running, or trying to. These people train for months ahead of time....running miles everyday.

If you burn more energy than you produce....your body will adapt by either increasing appetit and/or decreasing the metabolism.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


It's about nutrition. The body is hungry for nutrition. If they eat junk food, they will be eating more & more, because there is no nutrition.

Give me ANYONE who is obese, and put them on a diet of organic eggs & fruit for three weeks (they will get dense nutrition), and they will get out of their ADDICTION to junk food (empty calories). . . and if they continue to eat like that, they can stay slim forever.

No eggs and bacon?

That's what I'd do.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

I beg your pardon I dont make stuff up.

So Devo Your telling me that your body works independantly from your brain?
IS that right?
Hmmmm maybe mens do, but us gals sure as hell dont.
Peptides....
Im not sure your reading what I am saying, I AGREE WITH YOU, Obesity is a result of all your factors you have listed, I however will not discount the brain, emotions and peptides in the formation and blocking of addictive behaviours..making it up my aussie arse!!!pfft...read it and weep cowboy....

The treatments we have now are only able to target peripheral effects of addiction in hopes of being able to eventually strike at its core. But new research, published in a recent issue of the journal Science, aims directly for the root cause. The research is “taking a whole new approach,” says Dr. Karen Brebner, co-author of the paper and neuroscientist. “It is aimed at restoring the connections in the brain that may have existed before the exposure to the addictive substances.” The brain is a huge network of interacting brain cells, called neurons. Connections between neurons are constantly changing and this rewiring is thought to be how memories are formed and behaviours, like addiction, are wired in. The UBC research team focused on the rewiring in the brain that causes addictive behaviour. “We found that blocking one type of rewiring in normal memory formation, also plays a role in the formation of rewiring in addiction,” says Dr. Tak Pan Wong, co-author and researcher at UBC’s Brain Research Centre. The memory formation process that Dr. Wong is referring to is called long-term depression or LTD. LTD looks like one way that addictions get hardwired into the brain.

f you prevent the neuron from decreasing the number of receptors, then you prevent the signal from being lowered and you stop the LTD that helps wire in addiction. To stop the recycling of the receptors, the scientists made a small protein, or peptide, that jammed up the receptor recycling machinery.

This result is the first to directly link a specific rewiring mechanism to addiction, and it is moving addiction research into a new direction. “Now our understanding of normal learning and memory can also play a role in designing treatments for addiction,” says Dr. Wong. Before this research the study of memory and addiction could only touch, now they have the potential to merge. With the new peptide as a tool, the direct effects of LTD can be studied in many types of behaviour; the results of which will expand our understanding of all types of addiction.

www.scq.ubc.ca...

You are arguing that addiction plays no role, I am arguing it certainly does, its the addiction that causes the wrong foods and exceess calories to be taken in. Just as the poster above said he has to be strict, he has created a new 'addictive behaviour', same peptide production pattern, just feeding or blocking ro give different outcomes.

ALL this is inconjuction with your hormonal/insulin causes...sigh~




[edit on 13-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]

reply to post by zazzafrazz


I know you're not making stuff up.

But you're putting words in my mouth. I never once said that addiction doesn't play a role. It certainly does, and in varying amounts depending on the individual.

its the addiction that causes the wrong foods and exceess calories to be taken in.

Overating doesn't cause fat deposition. Fat cells are not dump trucks where extra calories just jump right in. If you're saying that an addiction will cause overeating, then I agree.

In some people the addiction may be the primary cause, but not for the vast majority. Doctors and nutritionists and guidlines and fear of fat make them eat the wrong foods. And those wrong foods cause a hormonal imbalance that is lipogenic.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


I wish I could applause your post dev

You are spot on....obseity is not always a choice, and it does no harm to anyone but the person themselves, unlike smoking....

Very shallow OP, its like comparing penguins to polar bears

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

But you're putting words in my mouth. I never once said that addiction doesn't play a role.

no poppet, I counted your statement below, addictions are brain/psychological and physiological

It is not a psychological problem.

I said it's not the underlying cause.

I say it is, which came first chicken or the egg?
Does your brain control your body, or your body control your brain...semantics

I would possibly agree with you if obesity were caused by overeating. If this were the case then it would be a logical conclusion to assume that if overeating causes obesity and undereating causes anorexia, then both are the opposite ends of a spectrum that is defined by one ultimate cause.

I didnt say its just about overeating, Im saying that the brain and emotions and peptides are the initial trigger for calorie over intake or restriction, which is then perpetuated more by the brain, aswell as the chemical hormonal fuctuations you list....together

BTW, they used to treat anorexics, that were so because of a loss of appetite, with insulin injections. Insulin increases hunger and regulates fat storage. So more insulin=more fat. But that's just a side note.

But thats just a treatment, that doesnt work on its own in the least, its coupled with head stuff.....its just a bandaid over a wound.

No one is obese because they want to be....If they could change it they would, but the change needs to come from head first to control the chemical production

If you're saying that an addiction will cause overeating, then I agree.

Good you agree then, at last...

So Devo when we open a fat farm for healing people, you stick to boot camps and rashioning carbs, and then they can come to me in a group hug session later in the day......


[edit on 13-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]