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a question to catholics??

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posted on Feb, 23 2003 @ 02:10 PM
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To get back to the main point of this post... After doing a little searching these are some sites I found, hopefully you'll find them useful falcon.


Do Catholics worship Mary and the saints?
You asked also if we worship Mary, the Mother of Jesus. No, we do not worship Mary. We worship God alone. We do honor Mary and the Saints, just as other people honor great leaders. We have statues and pictures of the saints, but most towns have statues of prominent citizens and most people have pictures of relatives and friends in their homes. The Bible teaches us to honor our father and mother. Surely, Jesus honors his Mother in heaven, and surely he wants us to honor her too.

www.amm.org...

Catholics do not pray to Mary as if she were God. Prayer to Mary is memory of the great mysteries of our faith (Incarnation, Redemption through Christ in the rosary), praise to God for the wonderful things he has done in and through one of his creatures (Hail Mary) and intercession (second half of the Hail Mary). The latter is addressed to Mary not as to a vending machine but a support person helping us to discern the will of God in our lives. Mary is a volunteer, highly recommendable and recommended, but not a mandatory and inescapable passage.

www.udayton.edu...

Though English words like 'worship' and 'adoration' are occasionally used to signify only veneration, honor or affection, they are generally understood to refer to that highest type of worship reserved for God alone. In this sense, Catholics do NOT adore or worship Mary, or any other created person or thing.
No, Catholics do not worship Mary, if by worshiping is meant adoring. She is not God for us, has never been and will never be. Addressing prayer to Mary is like asking a dear and close friend for help. Do we make a God of our friend when asking him to keep us in his prayers? Do we divinize him/her when asking for his prayerful support in sickness and the trials of life? Believers on earth and in heaven constitute a living community which the major Christian denominations recognize as the communion of saints. The saints in heaven are not dead. Their Christian example of virtuous living and their closeness to God make of them powerful allies for us struggling mortals. They do not take God's place; they are an expression of his grace

www.udayton.edu...




posted on Feb, 23 2003 @ 07:12 PM
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Truly hypocritical illmatic.

first you qoute this..

"" jesus did not come to change the law but to fullfill ""

fullfill how?

then you say he was a jew and not god.

funny because the same qoute about him not changing the law you used is in the same book as these qoutes..

"" who do you say i am? the messiah the son of god. blessed art thou peter, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you ""


I could name atleast 10 passages he says himself hes god, yet you use a passage out of the same book?

so what, your qoute is true and the rest is wrong, or are you just picking and choosing?


we do not worship mary, never have.

christ is the lord, he himself said he was many times, thats why he was crucified.

he created a new sacrafice, a new church, with the old law still valid in some ways but not all.

catholics still live by the ten commands in regard to sin.


so tell me illmatic.

jesus said he did not come to demolish the old law but to fullfill.

so why did he himself call himself god in the same book many times?

How come in john it says that mary calls jesus lord?


pick and choose to fit your agenda is what always happens.

you qoute one phrase that seems to sound good, yet deny passages of massive importance.


"" mary is noone ""

your wrong, shes the mother of god jesus. shes most blessed of all women.

she is our spiritual mother..

"" mary behold your son, and john behold your mother ""

we call her blessed and ask her to pray for us. she is our spiritual mother.


peace.



posted on Feb, 23 2003 @ 08:40 PM
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and to say so is blasphemy

truth

if Jesus was God.. why before he died he said "forgive them father, for they know not what they do"

why was he praying to God to ask for comfort right before he was captured.

who's voice came from heaven saying "this is my son and I love him so"

tell me, because if God was Jesus who was saying these things... was God talking to himself ? he must've have been because you believe he was Jesus.

you can go through the entire bible looking for passages that Jesus claimed to be God?

I can go through the entire bible looking for passages that say he WASNT.


catholics still live by the ten commands in regard to sin.


right, so that's why they changed and cut it down?

the second commandment:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."


well, that's exactly what catholics have done

they have created false images of christ and statues of angels and saints... why everytime you walk inside a catholic persons home they have a crucifix on their wall?

yep, you guys observe the laws well, good job.



posted on Feb, 24 2003 @ 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by Illmatic67
and to say so is blasphemy

truth

if Jesus was God.. why before he died he said "forgive them father, for they know not what they do"

why was he praying to God to ask for comfort right before he was captured.

who's voice came from heaven saying "this is my son and I love him so"

tell me, because if God was Jesus who was saying these things... was God talking to himself ? he must've have been because you believe he was Jesus.

you can go through the entire bible looking for passages that Jesus claimed to be God?

I can go through the entire bible looking for passages that say he WASNT.


catholics still live by the ten commands in regard to sin.


right, so that's why they changed and cut it down?

the second commandment:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."


well, that's exactly what catholics have done

they have created false images of christ and statues of angels and saints... why everytime you walk inside a catholic persons home they have a crucifix on their wall?

yep, you guys observe the laws well, good job.

In the old testament icons were used.At the same time that Moses received the commandment forbidding idols,he received from God instructions to place in the tabernacle, the mobile Hebrew temple,holy gold icons of cherubim on the lid of the Ark of the Covenant The Lord said to Moses.........Make them in the two ends of the mercy seat...and there i will meet thee,and i will commune with thee from above the mercy seat from between the two cherubim which are upon the Ark of the testimony,of all things which i will give thee in commandment unto the children of israel(Exod.25:18-22)
there are many more......(Exodus.26:1-37)
(1Kings6:27-29);(11Chron.3:7-14)
There were no icons(which means likeness)of the Lord God in the Tabernicle or in the Temple of Solomon, because He had not yet revealed Himselfin the flesh as God incarnate.There were no likeness of the old Testamentrightous men,because the people had not yet been redeemed and justified (Romans.3:9,25;Matt.11:11)

The cross of Christ is the beginning and ending of our salvation(Cf.John3:16-17,36)

Without the cross we are not Christians.........(Matt.10:38;16:24;28:19.Luke 14:27;Mark10:21;16:6).

the cross of Christ is an armour(MATT.20:22-23;Mark10;38-39;Luke12:50)

(Revel.7:3;Ezekiel9:4)

the cross of Christ is a divine weapon to drive away every enemyand adversery(1CORIN1:18:Luke1:71-74;Matt.22:44)
Finally the Cross of Christ will be an awful sign on the day of tribulation and last judgement of God (Matt24:30)

Behold,a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,and shall call His name Immanual(Is.7;14)
Translation from Hebrew means GOD WITH US
To some people faith is not enough to accept what is the truth.....
Others need Proof and then again it is not enough..........



[Edited on 24-2-2003 by helen]



posted on Feb, 24 2003 @ 05:42 AM
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At the same time that Moses received the commandment forbidding idols,he received from God instructions to place in the tabernacle, the mobile Hebrew temple,holy gold icons of cherubim on the lid of the Ark of the Covenant The Lord said to Moses.........Make them in the two ends of the mercy seat...and there i will meet thee,and i will commune with thee from above the mercy seat from between the two cherubim which are upon the Ark of the testimony,of all things which i will give thee in commandment unto the children of israel



easy, God TOLD him... there's quite a difference from obeying the law and being told to do something God TOLD you.

so let me get this straight... because God told Abraham to kill his son, all men today should sacracfice their only son and hope God sends an angel to tell us not to lay a hand upon him like he did Abraham? because that's what your telling me..

you justify doing something because God told SOMEONE ELSE? come on now, read and obey the laws because if you think your doing right because God told someone something to do, all men can kill their son and not be held accountable for it.



Without the cross we are not Christians.........(Matt.10:38;16:24;28:19.Luke 14:27;Mark10:21;16:6).


and without that same cross, ancient egyptians are not ancient egyptians


Behold,a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,and shall call His name Immanual(Is.7;14)
Translation from Hebrew means GOD WITH US
To some people faith is not enough to accept what is the truth.....
Others need Proof and then again it is not enough..........


still doesnt mean he'll be God or the son of God... when christians pray to the Messiah, do they say "in the name of Jesus" or "in the name of Immanuel"?



posted on Feb, 24 2003 @ 06:50 PM
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Originally posted by Illmatic67

At the same time that Moses received the commandment forbidding idols,he received from God instructions to place in the tabernacle, the mobile Hebrew temple,holy gold icons of cherubim on the lid of the Ark of the Covenant The Lord said to Moses.........Make them in the two ends of the mercy seat...and there i will meet thee,and i will commune with thee from above the mercy seat from between the two cherubim which are upon the Ark of the testimony,of all things which i will give thee in commandment unto the children of israel



easy, God TOLD him... there's quite a difference from obeying the law and being told to do something God TOLD you.

so let me get this straight... because God told Abraham to kill his son, all men today should sacracfice their only son and hope God sends an angel to tell us not to lay a hand upon him like he did Abraham? because that's what your telling me..

you justify doing something because God told SOMEONE ELSE? come on now, read and obey the laws because if you think your doing right because God told someone something to do, all men can kill their son and not be held accountable for it.



Without the cross we are not Christians.........(Matt.10:38;16:24;28:19.Luke 14:27;Mark10:21;16:6).


and without that same cross, ancient egyptians are not ancient egyptians


Behold,a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,and shall call His name Immanual(Is.7;14)
Translation from Hebrew means GOD WITH US
To some people faith is not enough to accept what is the truth.....
Others need Proof and then again it is not enough..........


still doesnt mean he'll be God or the son of God... when christians pray to the Messiah, do they say "in the name of Jesus" or "in the name of Immanuel"?


So does that mean when im quoting""Illmatic67",or are you not that person????



posted on Feb, 24 2003 @ 06:53 PM
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if I tell you to kill someone, you wont do it because it's against the commandments

if God tells you to kill someone, you better do it... knowing it's against the commandments.



posted on Feb, 24 2003 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by Illmatic67
if I tell you to kill someone, you wont do it because it's against the commandments

if God tells you to kill someone, you better do it... knowing it's against the commandments.


ok, i dont see myself worthy to speak or see God.
In the old testament , God did test worthy people ....
In regards to the ten commandments it is there for our benefit .......
There are so many people out there today that claim to talk with God and are considered by many as ""looney"" ,and many are just that.
does that make them "mad" or are they just so high strung on themselves that they think they can talk with God and God tells them what to do........



posted on Feb, 25 2003 @ 11:15 AM
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illmatic you still dont understand.

1. In the (old) law god commanded moses to make statues of angels.

but the same god said to not make (any) graven images.

your interpreting god wrong.

we have statues in our church, for (rememberence) not (worship), and if you knew even alittlle about what our
church teaches you would realize this.

(no) catholic worships that statue in church.

if you saying we are idols because we even have statues in church your wrong because of the command to moses.

so i guess even moses broke the second command?


any person with a conscience can understand this.

Now those who do worship a statue will ultimatically be ex communicated at once.

but statues in church are not wrong at all and angels, if thats true then moses is in hell for creating angels in the old law for the temple.


"" i can name many passages stating jesus is not god ""


then do so, and ill have to defend god by spotting out the error.

ive given you over and over passages where he himself says he the messiah.

yet the same book you pick qoutes out of has the same qoutes as him calling himself god.

you dont understand illmatic the confidence i have in christ, ive seen miracles of this man and will defend him as (god) with extreme
confidence.


maan did not reveal to me that jesus is god, before i got this internet and the falsehood on it, what revealed this to me was miracles and nothing on
here can make me deny the christ.

peace.



posted on Feb, 25 2003 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

Okay, you're right...At least in the NIV version. I don't have any other versions handy to double-check. But still, those who refuse to work on SUNDAY due to religion still have it wrong because Sunday is the *first* day of the week, not seventh.


I am NOT trying to be a smart@$$ here but how do we KNOW that sunday is the first day of the week. Wasn't the 7 day week that we use a Human invention?

"The common explanation is that the seven-day week was established as imperial calendar in the late Roman empire and furthered by the Christian church for historical reasons. The British Empire used the seven-day week and spread it worldwide. Today the seven-day week is enforced by global business and media schedules, especially television and banking.

The first pages of the Bible explain how God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. This seventh day became the Jewish day of rest, the sabbath, Saturday.

Extra-biblical locations sometimes mentioned as the birthplace of the 7-day week include: Babylon, Persia, and several others. The week was known in Rome before the advent of Christianity."
(source: webexhibits.org... )

So let's assume that the first pages of the bible are accurate (as an npc (non-practicing Catholic) only really believe in the golden rule which encompasses the whole of what I think God wants us to act on). We still don't KNOW without a doubt that Saturday is the seventh day. For all we know it could be Monday or Wednesday.

I am just curious as to where, MD, your source is for knowing unequivocally that Sunday is the first day of the week.



posted on Feb, 25 2003 @ 12:31 PM
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To answer your question F16.. let's see if I can remember any of my catachism here.... Catholics view the Virgin Mary better than the rest of us for obvious reasons, therefore she is prayed to as an intermediary(NOT as a god). Same goes for the Saints.

I am in agreement that the Saints were incorporated to make Catholicsm more palatable to the pagans that were forcibly assimilated.
I personally think that Roman/Greek myth and the pantheon have alot to to with the saints as well. God being Zeus the saints being the lower order gods. Makes sense to me since it was Constantine who spread his brand of christianity that would eventually become the Roman Catholic church.

I also think praying to Saints was intended to have a more psychological effect on the populace of the early Catholic Church and the medieval church and that is to keep pounding into the heads of the commoner that they NEED to pray to saints and with priests because they themselves are too lowly for God to listen too. That the "average" person could not bridge the chasm between himself and God alone. This was a wonderful way to keep control of the population.

I am not Catholic slamming here either just trying to discuss it from a historical/political/socioeconomic/theological point of view.

[Edited on 25-2-2003 by observer]



posted on Feb, 25 2003 @ 09:59 PM
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The current calendar in use was based upon the birth & death of Christ...Wouldn't it be inappropriate to screw it up right from the very beginning? The current calendar is called the "Julian Calendar" because it was named after Julius Ceaser...After the Romans converted to Christianity, they devised this calendar to be based upon the life of Christ.

But even the Christian holidays that've been put into the current calendar aren't quite accurate either...Easter Sunday falls on a different calendar day from one year to another because it's supposed to be the Sunday that Christ rose after his crucifiction.

Also, Christmas day isn't actually the day of the year that Christ was born...It's actually the Catholic adaptation of the winter solstice.

However, it's still the same system for numbering & naming the days of the week that are the same since the current calendar was adopted.


[Edited on 26-2-2003 by MidnightDStroyer]



posted on Feb, 26 2003 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
The current calendar in use was based upon the birth & death of Christ...Wouldn't it be inappropriate to screw it up right from the very beginning? The current calendar is called the "Julian Calendar" because it was named after Julius Ceaser...After the Romans converted to Christianity, they devised this calendar to be based upon the life of Christ.

But even the Christian holidays that've been put into the current calendar aren't quite accurate either...Easter Sunday falls on a different calendar day from one year to another because it's supposed to be the Sunday that Christ rose after his crucifiction.

Also, Christmas day isn't actually the day of the year that Christ was born...It's actually the Catholic adaptation of the winter solstice.

However, it's still the same system for numbering & naming the days of the week that are the same since the current calendar was adopted.


[Edited on 26-2-2003 by MidnightDStroyer]


Ah HA! I knew that we used the Julian Calendar but was unaware (or forgot) that it was adapted after the Roman conversion.
As for the Easter thing: My wife is Greek and all her family is Orthodox, their Easter is always at a different time than the rest of the Christians (usually several weeks after the rest of us). Are they following the correct formula for when Easter actually occurs?
I also knew the Christmas being the adaptation of Winter Solstice. Funny how humans will adapt whatever they want to make life easier isn't it.


peace (oh wait that's Truth's, sorry Truth)


arc

posted on Feb, 26 2003 @ 11:47 AM
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so where does the gregorian calendar fit into the scheme?

I think as well as stealing the winter solstice and calling it christmas, the spring solstice was also stolen and called easter. Thats why Easter is on a different sunday each year - the solstice is always on the same date, but the nearest sunday would be different.

observer is the festival your wife and her family celebrate actually Passover? Or am I confusing that with the Jewish faith and the wrong date?!

[Edited on 26-2-2003 by arc]



posted on Feb, 26 2003 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by arc

observer is the festival your wife and her family celebrate actually Passover? Or am I confusing that with the Jewish faith and the wrong date?!

[Edited on 26-2-2003 by arc]


No it isn't Passover, although I think it might come closer to Passover than the other Christian religions. Which makes sense doesn't it? Wasn't the Last Supper held on Passover? So pegging Easter to Passover makes alot of sense in my book. But I am not sure if that is the basis of the Orthodox placement of Easter. For all I know it might be different than the Catholic Easter just to piss of the Pope.



As a side note to all the American's out there: If you have seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding... it is NOT an exaggeration... I repeat, it is NOT an exaggeration.



posted on Feb, 26 2003 @ 07:20 PM
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So big deal Catholics took elements of their beliefs and altered them to suit, in other words not getting strung up on the dogma and approaching it in a more fluid interpretive way.

And they want to pray or venerate the Virgin Mary and the Saints.
Why not! More power to them!



posted on Feb, 27 2003 @ 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by roadghost
So big deal Catholics took elements of their beliefs and altered them to suit, in other words not getting strung up on the dogma...

Actually, it's a bit more backwards than that (Or would it be sideways?...Anyway...).

Christianity "borrowed" many of the older, pagan beliefs into its own organized structure to help make it easier to convert pagans into Christianity. Numerous examples include holidays being a Christian twist of more popular pagan rituals & ceremonies...Quite a number of "saints" were "renamed" from older pagan gods & spirits, etc.

Once the pagans saw how much Christianity was like the worship they were already perfoming, it made the missionary's conversion attempts that much easier.

This, as well as the various "translations" & "revisions" of the Bible (Originally based from the Dead Sea Scrolls), as much as anything else is what caused much of the arguements that led to schisms in the Church & the "splinter groups" branching off to form their own Churches.



posted on Feb, 27 2003 @ 02:18 AM
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ISLAM, say it's a Blasphem to tell that someone is the son of GOD.

[Edited on 27-2-2003 by Nans DESMICHELS]



posted on Feb, 27 2003 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by Nans DESMICHELS
ISLAM, say it's a Blasphem to tell that someone is the son of GOD.

[Edited on 27-2-2003 by Nans DESMICHELS]


Who is this directed towards? and for that matter What does this even MEAN?!



posted on Feb, 27 2003 @ 06:05 PM
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on why""Pascha"" (EASTER) in the orthodox church is still with the Julian calender........

www.sisqtel.net...




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