Question to Christians, Why do non-believers go to hell?

I really am confused about the Christian religion, now I honestly think I would be Christian for this one problem. Hell. From all the Christians I talk to, if you don’t believe Jesus was our saviour you go to hell. That’s the most stupid thing I can think of. First of what about tribes in remote areas in the Amazon and around earth and no one has been to. I guess there put on earth to go to hell? It does not make sense. I believe in living a very good life, love your neighbour ect.. But just little things like that should put someone in hell for eternity. I someone who has sin wouldn’t even put Hitler and Stalin in hell for eternity. That being said I would put them there a VERY long time, but not eternity. And people going to hell for eternity for not believing in god for a certain time frame, 10 years, 70 years for some. It just doesn’t make sense to me. So to any Christians do people go to hell for not believing in the saviour because they do not have the knowledge, and what about the people who never heard of Jesus, or the kids who are brought up in Muslim families, surely if god was all powerful wouldn't he rethink some of these things?

It may be true of some people who call themselves Christians, or rather have a very narrow view of Jesus's teachings that the fate you describe is what awaits "non-believers," but that is not the case of all people who call themselves Christians.

I consider myself Christian and disagree with your assessment.

Jesus talked about compassion. Jesus talked about forgiveness. Jesus talked about sticking up and caring for people who couldn't do that for themselves. I think those are the things that define Christianity.

The Bible is far from perfect --- it's very important and vital -- don't get me wrong. But it needs to be viewed as a lenses - a product of its time --- and the times of all of its revisions - with an understanding of how organized religion twisted it. Sometimes that may have happened maliciously, other times not.

I would suggest reading some of Marcus Borg for a deeper understanding of who Jesus was and what he was trying to teach.

going gently,
G.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
I really am confused about the Christian religion, now I honestly think I would be Christian for this one problem. Hell. From all the Christians I talk to, if you don’t believe Jesus was our saviour you go to hell. That’s the most stupid thing I can think of. First of what about tribes in remote areas in the Amazon and around earth and no one has been to. I guess there put on earth to go to hell? It does not make sense. I believe in living a very good life, love your neighbour ect.. But just little things like that should put someone in hell for eternity. I someone who has sin wouldn’t even put Hitler and Stalin in hell for eternity. That being said I would put them there a VERY long time, but not eternity. And people going to hell for eternity for not believing in god for a certain time frame, 10 years, 70 years for some. It just doesn’t make sense to me. So to any Christians do people go to hell for not believing in the saviour because they do not have the knowledge, and what about the people who never heard of Jesus, or the kids who are brought up in Muslim families, surely if god was all powerful wouldn't he rethink some of these things?

Your a non-believer seeking to grasp and understand things which are spiritual. How is it you, a non-believer are seeking to tell Believers what is and what is not correct about their Savior?

Before you get offended by what I just stated at least think about it deeply first.

Now *IF* the God of Scripture is real He is then a HOLY God and being as such nothing imperfect or sinful can be before Him. Hence what you see as "good" pales in comparison to what God demands as "good".

For instance we may view a "little white lie" as good since it benefits us, like say a nudge here and there on our taxes or taking a day off to go fishing. Yet it is a lie and you are then imperfect and since God demands perfection who then can meet that requirement?

Only a perfect God. Thus the reason for the Christ. He was the Once-For-All sacrifice which God would accept. Now a Believer who is saved is no longer looked at by God as sinful because God does not see their sin but rather Christ's Righteousness

*IF* God is HOLY His Love is then Holy, His Judgments are Holy, His Righteousness is Holy and His Wrath is also Holy. Therefore no one is in heaven or left out of heaven by mistake. If a person in some remote tribe has been elected by God for salvation they shall be saved. Jesus stated that many will come to dine with Him at the feast and they will be gathered from far away.

In regards to hell being for an eternity.......look at it more as an eternal separation from God and His presence. *IF* the God of Scripture be real and true then His decrees are Eternal (His Word, His Judgments) therefore Believers will be with God for eternity for this God has decreed and likewise unbelievers will be cast out away from God and His presence for all eternity because God has decreed it and again, God is an eternal God and to sin against Him is to commit an eternal sin.

Those separated from God will not argue about it. They will know full well they have sinned.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


What are you talking about. I believe in Buddhism, Christianity, though is way to illogical for me. If I am a representation of god, and I have sin, how can someone like me, who has not been saved, be nicer then a holy loving god? I would never banish someone for eternity. You cannot grasp eternity because it is infinite. Also how would someone saying *you are saved* then boom, all your sin turn good?..... Sorry bud but the real world doesn’t work that way. It’s called karma. You will probably need to rethink your post because you really didn't state anything besides saying anything god says (from the bible, Christian point of view) is right. Instead do a little bit of logical thinking as well. What about the tribes that are never found that are still out there, are you truly saying they are doomed, before they even came on this earth. What is they never have the chance to be *saved*. But also I see you are saying *IF*, so I am not sure if you are just stating the facts. If you are, sorry about being so up front lol.

reply to post by Maddogkull


You may have heard of a particular UFO abduction case where the abductee's soul was artificially separated from her body and placed in some sort of containment, indefinitely.

I think I read it from the Dulce Book..

If that was for real, and if aliens could do it. You might as well believe that hell is real - a place for imprisoning souls because you can't destroy souls..

reply to post by Maddogkull

What are you talking about. I believe in Buddhism

Then stick with what you know, and don't worry about Christianity. I'm really tired of people worrying about us Christians. Want to know what we believe, read the Bible, If your can't understand what your reading then buy a book that breaks it down for you. I'm not going to even bother responding to your questions, cause I would bet any amount of money that you don't even care. So I call BS on your post.

reply to post by Maddogkull


Research the word "Hell" in Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words." In it, you'll find the true meaning of Hell. I'll even give you a quick reference. These are the ancient hebrew/greek words that the english translators translated to "hell".

[ot]Sheol - Death; The common grave.
[nt]Hades - The grave; The underworld.
[nt]Tartarus - Place of confinement; Prison (used in 2 Peter 2:4 in reference to fallen angels and Satan).
[nt]Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom; The dump pile on the south side of Jerusalem which stayed ablaze every day. Dead prisoner bodies and animal carcasses were thrown in the fire. Those who missed the fire were taken over by worms. Gehenna obviously refers to the lake of fire in revelation 20-21. Hence the people will be dead, not suffering eternity in fire after they get thrown into the fire.
It's also refered to as the 2nd death in revelation 20 and 21.
Hell is a death sentence. During judgement, those who never came to Christ due to lack of understanding or never hearing about Him will have the genuine opportunity to repent and accept God and Christ. Those who refuse in the presence of God will surely burn in the lake of fire.


I hope this helps.

[edit on 11/3/2009 by Locoman8]

reply to post by dthwraith


I use to be Christian, before I switched over lol. It’s the logic I don’t understand. Just simple things. Were in the bible does it explain why god made all these neutron stars, galaxy’s, black holes, planets, all to make one planet for one race to be intelligent.... Doesn’t sound right lol. You can think all you want, I wouldn’t make a thread just to bash Christians I’m not like that. I am just seeking help, so I can get over the flaws I have in this religion.

reply to post by Locoman8

Those who refuse in the presence of God will surely burn in the lake of fire.

Just to clarify, they won't be alive once they are in "the lake of fire" it is a state of irredeemable condemned non-existence, the soul is dead.

As to the original post, some native Indian in America that lived and died around 1000 AD could not accept or reject Jesus Christ or his truth, so why would God judge him adversely. Death in ignorance before the technological advancement of the things like the printing press so people could actually read the bible is pretty huge.

Romans 6:7

For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

Acts 24:15

15Having [the same] hope in God which these themselves hold and look for, that there is to be a resurrection both of the righteous and the unrighteous (the just and the unjust).

These two scriptures alone show that "hell" as taught by the clergy of Christendom is nothing but a scare tactic.

However never think we can do whatever we want without any consequences.

Galations 6: 7 & 8

7Do not be deceived and deluded and misled; God will not allow Himself to be sneered at (scorned, disdained, or mocked by mere pretensions or professions, or by His precepts being set aside.) [He inevitably deludes himself who attempts to delude God.] For whatever a man sows, that and that only is what he will reap.
8For he who sows to his own flesh (lower nature, sensuality) will from the flesh reap decay and ruin and destruction, but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

It would be like me being angry with Darwin because of what some atheists say... it doesn't make sense. If I disagree with an atheist - then I disagree with that person - not necessarily with whom that individual references as the source of his belief.

I can't claim outright that I alone have the complete and absolute understanding of what Jesus taught. Not only would that be arrogant, it would also be ignoring the fact that I never met him - never heard him speak myself. I can only rely on what I discern and disseminate out of what has been written about him.

Yes - you can disagree with a lot of what some Christians say and do in the name of Jesus - but that doesn't mean all Christians speak with the same voice --- sing from the same hymn book (so to speak).

Can anyone acknowledge that? Please?

I hang my head in shame when I hear what some Christians claim --- of course, if we can rely somewhat on the gospels - Jesus did say that would happen.

going gently,

G.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

What are you talking about. I believe in Buddhism, Christianity, though is way to illogical for me. If I am a representation of god, and I have sin, how can someone like me, who has not been saved, be nicer then a holy loving god? I would never banish someone for eternity. You cannot grasp eternity because it is infinite. Also how would someone saying *you are saved* then boom, all your sin turn good?..... Sorry bud but the real world doesn’t work that way. It’s called karma. You will probably need to rethink your post because you really didn't state anything besides saying anything god says (from the bible, Christian point of view) is right. Instead do a little bit of logical thinking as well. What about the tribes that are never found that are still out there, are you truly saying they are doomed, before they even came on this earth. What is they never have the chance to be *saved*. But also I see you are saying *IF*, so I am not sure if you are just stating the facts. If you are, sorry about being so up front lol.

First, how is that you state Christianity is “way to illogical” for you but then claim to be Buddhist and live under “karma” when you can’t explain how karma began?

Secondly did you even bother to read my post?

You stated:
If I am a representation of god, and I have sin, how can someone like me, who has not been saved, be nicer then a holy loving god?

Who said you were a “representation of god”? You then answer your own question in the last part of your statement. You CAN’T be greater than God because God demands perfection which is why only God, who is sinless, could pay for your sin.

You also stated:
What about the tribes that are never found that are still out there, are you truly saying they are doomed, before they even came on this earth. What is they never have the chance to be *saved*.

I did answer this question in that ALL those whom are elected by God for salvation shall be saved. Even those whom have never heard the gospel. God is the ultimate, final and just Judge. No one will be left out of heaven by mistake.

The reason I stated “*IF* the God of Scripture is real…….” is to explain better the reasons why God saves some and damns others. It’s like looking at something and saying, “*IF* Bigfoot existed what would or should I expect to find?”

Lastly, sin is not turned good but rather you’re saved from the consequences of sin, which is both physical and spiritual death. We are all dying a physical death but not all will die a spiritual death.

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

Who said you were a “representation of god”? You then answer your own question in the last part of your statement. You CAN’T be greater than God because God demands perfection which is why only God, who is sinless, could pay for your sin.

Exactly when did Jesus say that He had to come down here to Earth and save our sorry asses - and pay for our sins? That whole notion of Jesus dying for our sins was never really developed / exploited until about ten centuries after Jesus walked the Earth.

None of us, not one, can say what happens to "non-believers." For all that we are, and for all that is possible for us, we are not God.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Granton]

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Granton]

reply to post by Granton


Granton, I cannot possibly ask for a better explanation than the one you gave in your first post. I really respect the way your perceive spirituality, thought it may be entirely different from my own.

It is outlooks like this that give me some form of hope for religion and faith in the future. It is about mutual respect and personal insight once you have found the base for your belief.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


First I said I believe in Buddhism, doesn’t mean I am a Buddhist. I believe in a lot of religions, different aspects of them. I am more of an agonistic for religion. Second I said Christianity is too illogical for ME. Also in the bible it said god made us in his own image, so technically I am a representation of god. Also I am not bashing stuff about Christianity, I am just stating the certain things I have problems with in the religion. I understand what you are saying I just have problems with the whole "being saved". How do we get saved, from a priest saying we are saved..? What about really nice people, who live by the ten commandments, but are nor Christian or saved. This is where I have a problem, from the Christians "I talked to", they all told me if you are not saved from a priest you will go to hell. If you don’t believe Jesus was the saviour, you go to hell. I don’t understand that. You only said whatever god says is right. Well that isn’t good enough. It just sounds like such a scare tactic. At least in Buddhism, Buddha said don’t believe in anything unless it agrees with your own mind. Compared to if you don’t believe Jesus was the saviour you will burn in hell. If you don’t do this you burn in hell for eternity in fire. Sound like scare tactics. If god from the bible knew anything scaring people to do things, isn’t the way to go. Sounds like Suddams regimen in 1992.(Scaring people to make them do things). This is what I hear from the Christians I talk to, so if I am wrong please tell me where I am wrong and how. And please don’t say you are wrong because God is almighty and whatever he thinks is up to him, I need better clarification then this. Remember all I am doing is trying to figure out things that seem illogical to ME. If you guys actually give me good answers to why, instead of saying whatever god says is right, I will listen and will gratefully be happy to accept your views of life. Thank You

Originally posted by Granton

Exactly when did Jesus say that He had to come down here to Earth and save our sorry asses - and pay for our sins? That whole notion of Jesus dying for our sins was never really developed / exploited until about ten centuries after Jesus walked the Earth.

None of us, not one, can say what happens to "non-believers." For all that we are, and for all that is possible for us, we are not God.

Ten centuries after Jesus walked the earth? Really?

You base that on?

Many copies and fragments of the New Testament date as early as the second century with some scholars stating that the original autographs may have been written as early as 30 years after the fact.

Also within the, what many people call "The Old Testament", we have reference to the Messiah coming to "save" His chosen people.

Lastly you state this:

None of us, not one, can say what happens to "non-believers." For all that we are, and for all that is possible for us, we are not God.

First you state that no one can say what happens to "non-believers" for we are not God yet you seem to know that "none can know" this.

Also we can't know what happens to non-believers yet you seem to know what Jesus said and didn't say.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

First I said I believe in Buddhism, doesn’t mean I am a Buddhist. I believe in a lot of religions, different aspects of them. I am more of an agonistic for religion. Second I said Christianity is too illogical for ME. Also in the bible it said god made us in his own image, so technically I am a representation of god. Also I am not bashing stuff about Christianity, I am just stating the certain things I have problems with in the religion. I understand what you are saying I just have problems with the whole "being saved". How do we get saved, from a priest saying we are saved..? What about really nice people, who live by the ten commandments, but are nor Christian or saved. This is where I have a problem, from the Christians "I talked to", they all told me if you are not saved from a priest you will go to hell. If you don’t believe Jesus was the saviour, you go to hell. I don’t understand that. You only said whatever god says is right. Well that isn’t good enough. It just sounds like such a scare tactic. At least in Buddhism, Buddha said don’t believe in anything unless it agrees with your own mind. Compared to if you don’t believe Jesus was the saviour you will burn in hell. If you don’t do this you burn in hell for eternity in fire. Sound like scare tactics. If god from the bible knew anything scaring people to do things, isn’t the way to go. Sounds like Suddams regimen in 1992.(Scaring people to make them do things). This is what I hear from the Christians I talk to, so if I am wrong please tell me where I am wrong and how. And please don’t say you are wrong because God is almighty and whatever he thinks is up to him, I need better clarification then this. Remember all I am doing is trying to figure out things that seem illogical to ME. If you guys actually give me good answers to why, instead of saying whatever god says is right, I will listen and will gratefully be happy to accept your views of life. Thank You

So you're not a Buddhist yet you hold to Buddhist beliefs?

If you're an agnostic for religion what exactly do you believe that then means? That we can't really know anything about religion? If that be so how then is it that you hold to Buddhism?

Being "made in Gods image" does not mean you "represent God" but rather that you have certain attributes, like reason, compassion, etc. God the Father is not a physical person with arms and legs but rather God is Spirit.

Also a "priest" cannot and does not "save you" or anyone. Only God saves by His grace. No one ever seeks after God because there is nothing in man that would cause him to seek after God. God alone saves and He does this by calling people to Him. God saves you, no one else.

The 10 commandments are not designed so that they save but rather to show you just how impossible it is to be perfect and to live up to God and His standard. No one can do it.

"Really nice people" ? By who's definition of "nice", yours, mine or what of a child molester? Many may state that Hitler was a "nice guy". Who or what draws the line of "nice" and then states, "Ok, you can go to heaven but you can't"

What if I claim I am nicer than you and in order for you to get to heaven you must be as nice or nicer than me? So this is why we are saved by Gods grace alone, not of our own doings (Eph 2:8). You understand this right?

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


Those are certainly valid questions and considerations. I'll do my best to respond with some clarifying remarks.

I think we can agree that we have no first hand accurate accounts of what Jesus said. We do have to view the gospels with a certain degree of skepticism. To my knowledge, you are correct in your dating of what was written down. That doesn't mean distrust of the gospels - just acknowledging the gospels being a product of their time and communities. I don't claim to be an all knowing scholar of the subject - but have done some reading. (I would suggest The Sayings of Jesus by Rex Weyler as an excellent starting point.) We need to consider the different communities that produced the different gospels. It could be argued that Matthew for example, was written/told/documented for a Roman audience - and when you understand that - you can discern a certain slant to the way the stories are told. That Jesus actually said "render unto Caeser that which is Caeser's" is doubted by a lot of people who know a lot more about it than me. That notion isn't entirely incongruous with the rest of Jesus's message - but it should be taken with a grain of salt. The Gospel of John was popular with a very different group of early Christians and emphasizes things very differently that the other three.

So, the long and short of it is, no I can't claim to know exactly what Jesus said - forgive me if it came across that way. However, after a lot of reading, and that means actually reading the gospels too, not just critics, and internalizing what that message of Jesus is - for me - I have come to some conclusions about what it means.

It sounds really hoaky, and I hesitate to say it --- but it is about developing a personal relationship with the message, the divine, the undefined otherness --- call it what you will. It does take some effort and work and a willingness and an open mind and heart.

Specifically, to your comments about Old Testament; historically we can say that that Israel and Judea were under Roman occupation around the time of Jesus and that they were looking for someone, something to lead them out of that occupation and deliver a return to the glory days of David and Solomon. I think the message Jesus was trying to deliver to them was that fulfillment or salvation could be delivered to them in a way in which they weren't thinking about. They were focused on a political solution while Jesus was offering a spiritual one. That doesn't mean Jesus was all about lying down to the Romans though --- he had issues with them too I suspect. Another great book to read is "Who Killed Jesus" by Dominic Crossan to give some broad insight into the politics of the day.

I'll dig up the stuff about the notion of dying for sins not coming along until much later after Jesus's death - but you'll have to give me a couple of days on that.

going gently,

G.

reply to post by Granton


That was a top reply, mate!

While I'm not a religious person (the opposite!), I fully appreciate the fact that the person, Jesus, most likely spoke of the exact ideals you listed and not what people have come to believe about Christianity (fire & brimstone, etc) thanks to hundreds of years of miscontrued efforts by a power greedy few.

It's really nice to see someone of a religious background speaking logically.

(not trying to offend anyone, but often people just spout bibical phrases as 'proof' or evidence')

reply to post by noonebutme

(not trying to offend anyone, but often people just spout bibical phrases as 'proof' or evidence')

I disagree. They are almost never biblical phrases.

And I don't care if I offend anyone or not.

@Maddogkull

It just doesn’t make sense to me.

There's a good reason for that.

Want to know why people hate Christianity?

2Pe 2:2
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

These "christians" bring it on themselves. People speak against Christianity because of them.

You can see through this "hell" nonsense. This gives you a great advantage over anyone stuck in churchianity. THe only way for a babe to see this is to step outside of this churchianity, forget everything he or she thought they learned, and start from scratch. But unfortunately it seems that most throw out the baby with the bathwater and don't have a clue on what they are speaking out against.

That word "hell" is not a valid translation of any word in scripture.

[edit on 4-11-2009 by psusa2]

reply to post by psusa2


I agree with the gist of your sentiments. Kind of speaks to that "we must become childlike" notion.

I think if people consider how myths/stories/legends grow up around people of importance or notoriety it might grant some perspective. Did George Washington really chop down a cherry tree? Did Abraham Lincoln really walk twenty miles to return a penny? More recently, can you imagine the volume of conflicting information about someone like Michael Jackson? They'll be sifting through that for decades! It should come as no surprise then, that after Jesus died, the stories about him grew and grew and grew. Marcus Borg refers to this as the "pre-Easter Jesus" and the "post-Easter Jesus."

I think the post-Easter Jesus represents what people saw in Jesus, and that in order to convey that to others - well - sometimes things get a little larger (than life) in the re-telling. And sure, the re-tellers would have borrowed stories about other larger than life figures and applied them to Jesus; Horus for example --- especially depending on the audience to whom they were conveying the stories.

But getting back to annoying Christians, (annoying as adjective - not verb); all of us are different and have different spiritual needs and hungers. Some people want to show up to church and say "okay - give me the straight goods because I don't have time to figure it out --- just tell me what to do." Those folks gravitate to a certain message - and people will sift through the Bible to create a message for them. That's not necessarily as dubious as it sounds. It's just what's happening in a certain arena of belief. That style can certainly help and sustain many people. I think it is fair to say that people who see only the world as black and white are the ones who are quick to judge and deny the gray in their own lives. But that's their struggle --- I have enough of my own.


Going gently,


G.