Question to Christians, Why do non-believers go to hell?

reply to post by Locoman8


It's only contradictory if you confuse Paradise with Heaven. Paradise was where the faithful went after they died before Christ walked the Earth. Abraham's bosom. After Christ the dead in Him go to heaven... where He is.

Now you're bringing up a red herring, the POINT is not whether it was paradise or heaven,but that the spirit leaves the body after death!

reply to post by Maddogkull


That only happens to them because they will come back to life on Earth... God is omniscient, they aren't truly saved or lost at the point they are having an NDE. A person's fate is only sealed when they are clinically dead and there is no coming back short of resurrection from God.

You'll also notice that those who go up to heaven who are Christians in their respective NDEs cannot stay, and do not go through their Judgment from the Lord.

Same thing, God knows that they will be revived by doctors.

reply to post by Locoman8

....I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Reads as if the thief would join Jesus that very day in paradise but contradicts the sign of Jonah.

if you take the verse word for word, it comes out as:

And said he to him, amen.
To you it is being said today with me it will happen in the paradise.

From that, it sounds to me that Jesus was telling the man that his kingdom would be in heaven. I don't see Jesus saying the man would be with him that day or that his kingdom would happen that day. What Jesus is saying, truly, to the man that day, was that his kingdom is not of this earth, and nothing more. Just like he earlier told Pilot, but with a twist because pilot was excluded from the kingdom, and the thief was included. So Jesus is saying, even though you are about to die, you will see my kingdom because it lies in the afterlife, but the good one. To Pilot Jesus was saying, you will not see my kingdom because you will die before it happens.


[edit on 8-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I don't confuse paradise and heaven. Paradise is the "New Earth" and was the "Garden of Eden" in ancient times. God's Kingdom will be on earth. "The meek shall inherit the earth" comes to mind. John 3:13 says no one will go to heaven or ever has gone to heaven except for Christ. The result is clear. We remain sleeping in our graves until we are called to resurrection number 1 or 2. Why are you resurrected if your soul is already separated from the body? It makes no sense. It's not even biblical. Show me where the soul separates from the body in scripture. Your body transfigures as Jesus demonstrated to us on top of the Mount of Olives to His apostles. His body and soul did not separate.... He transfigured into spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 explains that we who are alive and remain after the resurrection will "BE CHANGED" or transformed or transfigured. In the twinkling of an eye it is to be. A reunion of body and soul makes no sense for the resurrection if you are already spirit when you die and go to heaven. It doesn't add up with scripture. Think long and hard about that one.

reply to post by Locoman8


My God, where did you learn these heresies????


"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11

""And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." Matthew 17:1-4

Moses had been dead for 1,500 years at this point in time.

False Doctrines: Soul Sleep

reply to post by jmdewey60
Do a word study on that verse from the Authorized Version. I don't give two squirts of goat pee what the pagans and Gnostics at Alexandria Egypt thought, changed, or removed from God's Word.

These men were heretics, and were denounced by the Antioch Christians. Heck even the Christians in GREECE rejected their Greek versions of the scriptures. (Codex Vaticanus and Sinaticus)

reply to post by NOTurTypical
There does seem to be at least three different versions of this text.
I think I was using westcott/hort. It can come out slightly different, depending on the version you are using.



[edit on 9-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

You're new to Christianity I take it?

I grew up in a strict christian home. I still have friends who thinks that whoever doesn't believe in Jesus Christ will suffer for all eternity in Hell.

The sad thing is????

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN THE BIBLE TO SUPPORT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IN HELL!

One small sin in finite time = eternal punishment?.... oh never mind....

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

There does seem to be at least three different versions of this text.
I think I was using westcott/hort. It can come out slightly different, depending on the version you are using.

Would you believe me if I told you Westcott and Hort were two closet Satanists who were members of the Theosophy Society of Russia, one of them founded the Hermes Club, a ghost watching society and that neither man believed in a literal heaven or hell, the trinity, or the virgin birth?

"Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901) was born at Birmingham and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) at Dublin. In 1851 Westcott was ordained an Anglican "priest" and Hort in 1856: their careers were spent mostly in academic positions rather than pastorates. As early as 1853 they began work on their Greek text of the New Testament: this project was to occupy most of their remaining lives. In 1870 the idea of a modest revision of the A.V. was sanctioned by the Southern Convocation of the Church of England, and this provided the opportunity for Westcott and Hort to introduce their radical changes. They defended the inclusion of a Unitarian scholar on the Revision Committee. "The New Testament in the Original Greek" was published in 1881, as was the Revised Version based upon it: this latter failed to gain lasting popularity, but the Westcott-Hort text and theory has dominated the scene since."

Quotes from Hort and Westcott

Westcott and Hort: Translators beliefs

Love the truth

Theosophy is of the devil

Basic Understanding of the NWO



[edit on 9-11-2009 by NOTurTypical]

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
You're new to Christianity I take it?

I grew up in a strict christian home. I still have friends who thinks that whoever doesn't believe in Jesus Christ will suffer for all eternity in Hell.

The sad thing is????

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN THE BIBLE TO SUPPORT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IN HELL!

One small sin in finite time = eternal punishment?.... oh never mind....

Yes there is evidence and you're not grasping that your sin/my sin is not against a finite being but an Eternal Infinite Holy God thus Gods Judgments and Wrath against such is eternal.

I guess I am out in left field on a lot of this. For me, the emphasis on the afterlife is entirely misplaced.

I guess people are so obsessed with the second coming because they are so disappointed in the first.

Too bad they miss the point.:bnghd:

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Locoman8

 

My God, where did you learn these heresies????


"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11

""And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." Matthew 17:1-4

Moses had been dead for 1,500 years at this point in time.

False Doctrines: Soul Sleep

What about your hersies? Elijah didn't go to the spirit realm of heaven. Read on....

Did Elijah Go to Heaven?
A biblical event many cite to support belief that the righteous go to heaven when they die involves the prophet Elijah. Elijah was a prophet of God in the ninth century B.C. The Bible states that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11). But does this contradict the testimony of John's Gospel, which stated some 900 years after Elijah's time that "no one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man"? (John 3:13).

How can we explain this seeming biblical discrepancy? A closer look shows that the two passages can be reconciled easily enough.

Careful study shows that three "heavens" are actually discussed in the Bible. One is God's dwelling place—the place of His throne—and the heaven where the resurrected Jesus is today. Speaking of Christ, who is our High Priest, the Bible says, "We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens" (Hebrews 8:1). Heaven is specifically called God's dwelling place (Deuteronomy 26:15). The apostle Paul calls this heaven the "third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2)—showing, as noted, that there are two others. It's described as the "third" because, being in the spirit realm, it is beyond the other two, which are in the physical realm.

Another heaven discussed in the Bible, second in proximity to us, is what we call outer space. It is the domain of the moon, planets, comets, asteroids, sun and stars. David spoke of this when he reflected on the awesomeness of God's creative handiwork, which he described as "Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained" (Psalm 8:3). Many scriptures mention "the stars of heaven" (Genesis 26:4; Deuteronomy 1:10; 28:62; Isaiah 13:10).

Yet another heaven, closest to us in proximity, is the envelope of air that surrounds our planet, consisting of oxygen and other gases. This heaven—earth's atmosphere—is mentioned in such passages as Genesis 7:11-12, which describes the great flood of Noah's day: "The windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights." The Bible also speaks of "the birds of heaven," those that fly overhead (Job 35:11; Jeremiah 16:4).

To determine which heaven is meant in a Bible passage, we must carefully consider the context. It was into the lower reaches of this first, closest heaven—the earth's atmosphere—that Elijah was taken. Let's notice the proof.

God had earlier told Elijah he was to anoint a man named Elisha as a prophet to succeed him (1 Kings 19:16). Later, as the two men walked together, Elijah said to Elisha, "What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?" (2 Kings 2:9). This led to a discussion of God's gifts to Elisha that would allow him to fill Elijah's role.

"Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (verse 11). Elijah was now gone. The former followers and students of Elijah were now to look to Elisha as their new leader. "Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, 'The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha'" (2 Kings 2:15).

Many readers assume that Elijah at that point was made immortal and taken to the heaven where God resides. This was not the case. The sons of the prophets knew otherwise. They knew the whirlwind had simply removed Elijah to another location on earth. They exclaimed to Elisha: "Look now, there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley" (2 Kings 2:16).

The disciples were concerned for Elijah's safety, so they sent out a party of 50 men to search for him. The 50 searched for three days but did not find him (2 Kings 2:17).

Another passage proves conclusively that Elijah was not taken up to live in heaven. The Bible records that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah, several years after he was removed in the whirlwind.

Notice the sequence of events recorded for us in the Bible. Elijah's last recorded and dated act occurred during the reign of the Israelite king Ahaziah when Elijah told the king he would die for his sins (2 Kings 1:3, 17). Ahaziah's reign lasted only about a year, ca. 850 B.C.

Elijah's removal and replacement by Elisha is then recorded in the next chapter, 2 Kings 2. The story continues with incidents from Elisha's life, including an encounter with Jehoshaphat, king of Judah (2 Kings 3:11-14). Several years later Jehoram, son of Jehoshaphat, succeeded his father as king of Judah, ca. 845 B.C. (2 Kings 8:16).

Jehoram proved to be a wicked king, leading the nation of Judah in rebellion against God's commandments. A few years into Jehoram's reign, and several years after Elijah's removal, Jehoram received a letter from Elijah warning the king of dire consequences because of his sins. This letter is recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.

This letter proves that the prophet was still alive and on earth some years after he was removed by the whirlwind and replaced by Elisha. God had chosen Elisha to succeed Elijah as His prophet, so He bodily removed Elijah to another place, where he continued to live for at least several more years—as his letter to Jehoram demonstrates.

The Bible tells us nothing more about Elijah's life following his writing of the letter. But he eventually died, just like the other prophets and righteous men of the Old Testament, who all died in faith, not yet receiving the eternal life God had promised (Hebrews 11:39).

Again, a careful reading of the Scriptures shows that Elijah's miraculous removal by a fiery chariot involved transporting him to another location on earth, not to eternal life in heaven.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Hope for Immortality?

Whether death strikes friends or family members, we experience the pain of loss. And we wonder: "Will we ever see them again?" When we consider the inevitable end of life, we ask: "Is there any hope for the future?" The answer, thankfully, is: "Yes!" God Almighty—the Creator of life itself—reveals our true hope in the Bible!
Here is what the Apostle Paul wrote: "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13–15).
Notice that Paul calls death a "sleep." He does not describe dead Christians as active or alive in heaven. Rather, they are "asleep," or dead, until Christ’s Second Coming. "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (vv. 16–18).
Once, when the Sanhedrin was interrogating Paul, he made the resurrection the major issue in his response: "But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, ‘Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!’" (Acts 23:6).
Paul looked forward to the resurrection from the dead, at Christ’s return. He longed "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead" (Philippians 3:10–11).
In Hebrews 11, often called the "faith chapter," we read of many heroes and heroines of the faith. Did they go to heaven at death? What does Scripture say? "These all died in faith, not having received the promises [of eternal life, and of inheriting the earth], but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Hebrews 11:13). Later, we read: "And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us" (vv. 39–40).
Faithful Christians who have died are waiting in the grave for the return of Christ! "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28–29, RSV).
This "resurrection of judgment" takes place after the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ and the saints (Revelation 20:5–6). Then comes the White Throne Judgment—the time after the Millennium when spiritually blinded human beings, who have not previously come to the Truth, will be resurrected and given their first genuine opportunity to truly accept Jesus’ sacrifice. Those who reject it will be cast into the lake of fire, to die forever.

Immortality: A Gift from God

We would remain dead, if God did not resurrect us. As human beings, we do not already have immortality! Immortality is a gift from God! "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23, KJV). If we already had immortality, we would not need it as a gift of God. We receive the gift of immortality when we undergo a dramatic transformation at the resurrection.
Paul writes: "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory’" (1 Corinthians 15:51–54).
Yes, unless we have "put on" immortality through God’s gift at the resurrection, a soul can die! The prophet Ezekiel made this plain when he wrote: "The soul who sins shall die!" (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). The Hebrew word for "soul" is nephesh, which refers to physical life; it is the same word used to describe animal life in Genesis 1:21.
"But that’s in the Old Testament," you may be thinking. "What does the New Testament say about the soul?" Jesus’ teaching was the same. "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Greek psuche, "life"] and body in hell [gehenna fire]" (Matthew 10:28). Do you believe your Bible? Do you believe what Jesus said? God is able to destroy both soul and body in "hell"—gehenna fire.
The Bible plainly teaches that souls are mortal—not immortal. But God has a wonderful plan of salvation for all humanity—including you! He wants you to be a part of His family for all eternity. God is love, and He has given you the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ, to pay for your sins. Sin brings the death penalty upon all of us. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).
Our sin has earned us the death penalty, but God sent His Son to pay that penalty, so we can be reconciled to God and redeemed by God. Through His gift, we can walk in a new way of life, and have a new relationship with our Creator! Each of us was created in God’s likeness to have an eternal and loving relationship with Him. But it is God who first demonstrated His love to us! Perhaps you are familiar with the precious "golden verse" of the Bible: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
God has created us in His own image—in His likeness. He wants to have a relationship with us, but we have separated ourselves from Him. "Your iniquities have separated you from your God" (Isaiah 59:2). Christians, however, have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, through Christ’s shed blood. As Christians, we are no longer separated—we have direct access to God, through our Savior Jesus Christ.
Are you a person after God’s own heart? King David of Israel is another "hero of faith" mentioned in Hebrews 11. God called him a "man after My own heart" (Acts 13:22). Has he gone to heaven, or is he still in the grave?
In the Kingdom of God, yet to come to this earth, King David will be the ruler over all the tribes and nations of Israel and Judah (cf. Ezekiel 37:24; Jeremiah 30:9). Certainly David should be in heaven, if the righteous go there the moment they die. Yet the Bible plainly shows that he is not there! On the Day of Pentecost—the very day the New Testament Church was founded—the Apostle Peter said: "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day" (Acts 2:29). After the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, David was still dead and buried! Peter went on to plainly state: "For David did not ascend into the heavens!" (v. 34). David is awaiting the resurrection, as are all the other faithful saints!
Many religious people have been taught the false concept of the immortal soul, and as a result are frightened not only about their own future, but for their friends and relatives who, they fear, are right now being tormented in an eternal hell. But the truth is that not one human being who has ever lived and died is now suffering in hellfire!
Your Bible clearly refers to death metaphorically as a sleep. Jesus referred to His friend Lazarus’ death as a sleep (cf. John 11). The dead have no consciousness. "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The dead experience no conscious passing of time. In the next split second of their consciousness, they will awaken in the resurrection.

reply to post by Maddogkull

Question to Christians, Why do non-believers go to hell?

You have it all backwards.

Non believers don't go to hell.

If a person who has never herd the gospel lives their lives to the best of there ability, they are simply doing works for salvation. Salvation is by grace.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

If you have herd the word and still do not believe, God sics the Jehovah Witnesses on you ( just kidding )