Judas.. Pure Evil or A friend of Jesus...

I watched a show on tv a while back that talked about this very issue. Jesus had to die for our sins. And the events leading up to this was judas "betraying" jesus and turning him in. But if you think about it Judas really had no choice but to do this. Alot of people condemn him for this. But i feel he was forced into this. Jesus had to die judas had to do what he had to do to make it happen. This was all layed out before Jesus was ever thought of since god supposed to know whats gonna happen before it happens. So If this is true judas really had no free will to stop from turning on jesus. It was like he was programmed. Shortly after Jesus died judas commited suicide. This to me doesnt sound like a person who really wanted to harm jesus. It sounds like someone who was forced to do so and regretted doing so. I think judas actually is in heaven with jesus. Assuming all this bible stuff is real. Im a athiest but im just saying assuming all this is real. Why wouldnt judas be in heaven since he brought upon the world peoples sins being forgiven and made church and the bible what it is today. If jesus didnt die on the cross we really wouldnt have much faith or believe the same as we do. We wouldnt have crosses or nothing. Think about it.

reply to post by gerg357

Why wouldnt judas be in heaven since he brought upon the world peoples sins being forgiven and made church and the bible what it is today.

I personally do believe that Judas is in heaven but, not quite for the reason that you give here.

Yes, God would've known from eternity past what Judas Iscariot was going to do to Jesus. That doesn't excuse Judas for his sins though, so one day, he will face judgment for it, just like we all will for our sins. In betraying Jesus, Judas, much like we all do with our personal sins, gave in to the temptation of greed.

That being said, I believe that Judas repented of what he did, and thus, will be in heaven one day, since he earlier, seemingly trusted in Christ. He was just a guy that screwed up, in a history changing way.

Shortly after Jesus died judas commited suicide.

There are two versions of that. In Acts 1: 16-18, Saint Peter testifies

"My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus.
He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out.

So, this is very interesting. Judas apparently survived Jesus by a while, and died in a farm accident. It sounds like he could still have been part of the ministry, if he had wanted to be.

Since Judas was not a suicide in this version, there wouldn't seem to be any particular reason to assume that he couldn't have "repented his sins." So, maybe you're right. Maybe Judas is in heaven with Jesus.

Kind of funny, an agnostic like me and an atheist like you, chewing the fat about who's in heaven with Jesus .

reply to post by gerg357


google "the lost gospel of judas"....in it Judas talks of Jesus ASKING him to do the deed. As Peter lemesurier demonstrated well in his book "The Armageddon Script", Jesus' birth and ministry was planned from the start by a strict religious sect called The Essenes who were felt it their divine calling to MAKE prophecy come true in order to pave the way for the kingdom of heaven. Lemesurier didn't know about the Lost Gospel of Judas back in 1981, it was only discovered a couple of years or so ago. The book is worth a read, far too much to go into here.

Originally posted by eight bits

Shortly after Jesus died judas commited suicide.

There are two versions of that. In Acts 1: 16-18, Saint Peter testifies

"My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus.
He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out.

So, this is very interesting. Judas apparently survived Jesus by a while, and died in a farm accident. It sounds like he could still have been part of the ministry, if he had wanted to be.

Since Judas was not a suicide in this version, there wouldn't seem to be any particular reason to assume that he couldn't have "repented his sins." So, maybe you're right. Maybe Judas is in heaven with Jesus.

Kind of funny, an agnostic like me and an atheist like you, chewing the fat about who's in heaven with Jesus

.

True. But im a semi athiest i really aint sure how this is possible. I believe that we didnt come from monkeys or apes or the big bang. I dont believe in the god theory as i call it because there is so much thats in the bible that goes against itself and i dont think in my opinon god is as powerful as everyone here thinks he is. I dont think he created the heaven and earth. I dont believe the stuff because its not plausable by any earth means. I mean theres so many implications thats in the theory of a spirit making this world and all in it in just 6 days. So i dont believe that.


I do believe if there is a god hes not as powerful as everyone makes him be. To me this explains why god lets things happen and explains why the devil is here. Now a god that didnt know the devil would turn against him would make the devil since he didnt know the devil would turn dirty. A god who knows everything before its gonna happen wouldnt make the devil to steal his people and make them evil. So a good whos more "realistic" is what i could believe in. The god that can do all these things and a jesus who can walk on water. I dont believe it. So i dont believe in the god that people believe in. But its possible there is a higher being out there that could maybe guide us. I dont think he could part seas and raise dead. But could be very wise. And could possess some kinda telepathy type skills. Thats a god i could believe in. But raising the dead healing the sick making the blind see. Nah dont buy it..

Shortly after betraying Jesus, Judas felt remorse and commited suicide.

While betraying Jesus was indeed a sin, i feel as though Judas repented before killing himself.

The fact of the matter is.

if Judas asked for forgiveness, he is in heaven.

I'm not sure as to how they would document the fact that he repented, it might have been something he did without telling others.

If you think about it, he was in fact one of the twelve diciple at one point.

If you ask me, what Judas did was necessary, and I cant imagine him being put through hell if he asked for forgiveness.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by gerg357

 

Why wouldnt judas be in heaven since he brought upon the world peoples sins being forgiven and made church and the bible what it is today.

I personally do believe that Judas is in heaven but, not quite for the reason that you give here.

Yes, God would've known from eternity past what Judas Iscariot was going to do to Jesus. That doesn't excuse Judas for his sins though, so one day, he will face judgment for it, just like we all will for our sins. In betraying Jesus, Judas, much like we all do with our personal sins, gave in to the temptation of greed.

That being said, I believe that Judas repented of what he did, and thus, will be in heaven one day, since he earlier, seemingly trusted in Christ. He was just a guy that screwed up, in a history changing way.

Ok i agree with the greed theory you stated its possible yes. But Someone had to betray jesus.

What youre not getting is judas had to betray jesus because this was meant to happen. Jesus had to die on the cross and judas had to be the one to do this. If god seen this happen before it happens then its got to happen. So judas really didnt have a choice but to do as he was programmed.

My theory is based on freewill. The fact that judas couldnt be in hell or be punished since he had no free will to stop himself. If he had freewill to stop himself then not even god or jesus would have known he was gonna turn them in. But jesus did. He says it in the bible at the last supper if im correct. He says i know that one of you here is going to betray me.

Judas was going to do it. Jesus and god knew it. So judas had no freewill to say no i dont want to do this.. He had to.. weither he wanted to or not.

reply to post by gerg357


One of the biggest xtian problems appears to be judas and few are willing to give it that much thought.

Indeed, if we are to believe that the resurrection was a real event (although there is no evidence of such) then Judas had no option at all in his betrayal.

Judas is the creation (in the xtian paradigm) of jesus an omniscient,omnipotent,omnipresent being.

The resurrection is apparently part of the plan of redemption which would have been planned/considered/set in motion at the very same moment as everything else that is, was or ever will be unless the creator is a changing creator, which it is alleged no to be.

In order for Judas to have free will he would need to have the option of no, however if Judas took the no option there would be no crucifixion.

judas was simply created to do what he did and cannot possibly be committing a sin (acting contrary to the will of jesusyahweh god) as he was acting according to the will of his creator jesusyawhe god.

More probable it would seem is that, the entire episode is in the gospels a complete myth and I'm inclined to think that Cosmic Pixie is sniffing in the right direction.

Her's John Armstrong trying to get his head around the myth of judas and the contradictions in relation to this.

Originally posted by cosmicpixie
reply to post by gerg357

 

google "the lost gospel of judas"....in it Judas talks of Jesus ASKING him to do the deed. As Peter lemesurier demonstrated well in his book "The Armageddon Script", Jesus' birth and ministry was planned from the start by a strict religious sect called The Essenes who were felt it their divine calling to MAKE prophecy come true in order to pave the way for the kingdom of heaven. Lemesurier didn't know about the Lost Gospel of Judas back in 1981, it was only discovered a couple of years or so ago. The book is worth a read, far too much to go into here.

Thanks for the response. I think i seen this on tv. I think this was where they
got the info for the show.

Contrary to popular belief Brutus did not mean to kill Caesar or even think that he did.

He was merely succumbing to peer pressure.

Contrary to popular belief Caesar did not die in the Senate attack but rather they let the plotters imagine and then suffer for the attack on Caesar.

Contrary to popular belief...

Julius Caesar = Jesus Christ
Brutus = Judas
Caesar's 12 Lictors = Christ's 12 disciples

Rome lies, and Rome wrote the Bible. Enough said. Free your hearts and minds from this tyrany and find your own paths.

Jesus forgave him before he even did it.
Judas did nothing more than what a lot of us all do here on earth at some point or another.

Judas had remorse for his actions...as to is he in heaven? I'll find out one day.

Some 500 years before Yeshua's appearance, in babylon, the prophet Zechariah made this prophecy concerning Moshiac;
Zech.11:12-13 "So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD."

This of course refers to those famous 30 pieces of silver for which the Lord was betrayed for.

The name judas is a basterdized, helenistic form of his true name; Yehud or Judah, thus representing the house of Judah or the Jews, from which Yeshua came from and by whom was betrayed.

This is an example of history repeating itself, G-d confirming His word, thus reaveali g the truth. Us Jews call that midrash.

So that is what happened; just as man betrayed G-d in the garden of Eden, so He was again betrayed in the garden of gethsemene. And just like in the wilderness with Moses, Judah built the golden calf, so a man called Judah betrayed G-d for thirty pieces of silver, with which he repented, gave the money back, and because they would not put blood money back into the treasury, they bought a plot of land called the Potters field in himmon, just as Zechariah had foretold 500 years before. And that is where Judah hung himself also.
That field is also known as the field of blood (symmetry or what!), and was used as a cemetry for wealthy Jews, the same who Yeshua spoke against! Lol.

G-d knows who are His and who are not, and will even use evil men to fulfill His purposes, turning their evil into good, and in this case, for the good of all.

Is judah in heaven? That's up to G-d.

reply to post by Selahobed

This is an example of history repeating itself, G-d confirming His word, thus reaveali g the truth.

Did it not for one second occur to you, that the anonymous authors of the gospels were were simply incorporating, older scriptures into their own, in order to dupe the gullible such as yourself ?

No revelation here dude, the truth ? You been lied to and fell for it.

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.

George Orwell : 1984
A man far more accurate in prediction than any vague bible story and therefore by your standard the greatest prophet yet. Ah but of course he was obviously a demon lol.

Would an omniscient,omnipresent,omnipotent being not know that you mean god when you type g-d ?
Or is typing g-d indicate that you are trying to differentiate between one of the thousands of gods that mankind has invented ?
Is g-d a code for Baal perhaps and you don't want Baal to know your talking about him ?

well Judas did try to return the 30 pieces of silver. He clearly regretted what he had done. I think its possible, but know way of telling. We may never know.

reply to post by moocowman


Yes that thought had occured to me many years ago, but that is not the only example of midrash in scripture, there are many. One example is from the book of Daniel which describes the abomination of desolation, which happened with Antiochus epiphanes where he desecrated the holies of holies, then again in 70ad with the roman sacking of Jerusalem and the desecration of the temple. These two separate incidents were a type of the real event in the future, also showing the system and peoples who will do it.

As for the G-d thing? I'm a Jew, that's what we do, Its a habit, but His name is YHVH, or more accurately; Hayah Asher Hayah.

Baal just means master or husband in Hebrew. Not some stupid pagan rubbish.

reply to post by Selahobed

As for the G-d thing? I'm a Jew, that's what we do, Its a habit, but His name is YHVH, or more accurately; Hayah Asher Hayah.

It may well be what you do, (the g-d thing), but why, who told you to do it and by what authority ?

Interesting, what are your thoughts on there being no evidence whatsoever of 2 million or so hebrew slaves ever being held captive in egypt and that this yahwe character was more than likely an amalgam of other characters ?

Do you agree with your god that women should be killed if their found to be not virgin when they get married ?

What you really want to look at is predestination. Does God predestine some people, he knows will be evil, to be in a position for him to show his power through them? The simple answer is that according to the Bible, yes he in fact does, and its spoken of quite a bit:

Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Romans 8:29-30
For [those] whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, [those] whom He predestined these He also called, whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love, having predestined us to adoptions as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

He Also predestines those who will be willing followers of Christ to be in a position to learn of him, become his elect, and be assured of salvation.

Other verses on predestination:

Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:7-8, 2 Thess. 2:13-14, 2 Tim. 1:9, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:22, Luke 18:7, Romans 8:33, 11:7, Colossians 3:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, I Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 5:13; 2 John 1:1, 13.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Rome lies, and Rome wrote the Bible. Enough said. Free your hearts and minds from this tyrany and find your own paths.

Rome did not write the bible. As a matter of historical fact, Irenaeus quoted 21 of the 27 new testament books, still in the Bible today in 180 AD. This was during the reign of Marcus Aurelius and Commodus, the same guys in the movie "Gladiator", neither of whom were Christians. The old Testament is even older then that having been based on the Septuagint, written by 323 BC. Constantine I was not born until 306 AD, and the Roman Catholic Church did not exist until the Great Schism of 1054 AD.

Point is that Rome did not write the Bible, contrary to popular opinion based on films such as the "DaVinci Code", but rather came from the Christian faith dating back to the original Church Fathers such as John, Polycarp, and Irenaeus.

reply to post by gerg357


John 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, 28 but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.

I have always "known" that Judas is sitting on his throne like a prince in the presence of God and all his angels. He was Jesju's best friend in the younger years and was also the one among the disciples who were trusted with accounting and carried the group's money. According to the newly surfaced Gnostic gospel of Judas, restored and conserved with help of the National Geographic Society, Judas was the only one who really understood Jesju, which is reflected in the Gospel of John, where it says that noone of the disciples understood what Jesju said to Judas, but Judas understood Jesju's whishes straight away and ran off to fulfill them. During the arrest, Judas even kiss Jesju, and a little later, probably since he has been drinking hard in deep regret with great pains in his soul, making all the unleavened bread in his belly into a fermenting dough threatening to burst him open. The pain must have been awful. So he went off and hanged himself, before his belly literally burst open reveiling his intestines.

It's a sad story, and in many ways, since Jesju survived and all, Judas Iscariot has a special place in my heart. And like the OP suggests, he might have a guarded place in God's heart aswell.

[edit on 2/11/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]