Another Plane off course and dead silent for 75mins with no fighters scrambled?

reply to post by thedman


I'll add one more point. There is no freakin' way that could happen with even one of those guys awake! One of the first and most important things a pilot learns from the beginning is division of attention. They were quiet obviously not monitoring anything. They were asleep.

reply to post by Reheat


I 110% agree with you! on all you just said.

Bravo sir , just bravo sir.

Couldnt have said it better my self .

Originally posted by Reheat
Take a look at where the aircraft was and where it was headed. It was a danger to what? A cheese processing plant in Eau Claire, WI? No? Maybe a dairy farm in the area? It was also at night. Do you speculate that potential hijackers had night vision equipment in order to see the largest cow on that dairy farm?

Although I'm certainly not disagreeing with the argument you raise in this particular post, this comment bothers me a little...

Forget where they're heading... Do the people on board the plane not count?

Also, what if the 'hijackers' learn how to turn? Apparently on 9/11 they knew how to do that quite well. Do you think the intercepting pilots would be sitting on the ground thinking "they're OK now, but if they turn... THEN we'll launch..."

I think the reason this was posted on ATS was to highlight that maybe in this case, it would have been more prudent to at least have someone in the air just in case...

Rew

Originally posted by Rewey

Originally posted by Reheat
Take a look at where the aircraft was and where it was headed. It was a danger to what? A cheese processing plant in Eau Claire, WI? No? Maybe a dairy farm in the area? It was also at night. Do you speculate that potential hijackers had night vision equipment in order to see the largest cow on that dairy farm?

Originally posted by Rewey
Although I'm certainly not disagreeing with the argument you raise in this particular post, this comment bothers me a little...
Forget where they're heading... Do the people on board the plane not count?

Of course the passengers count. However the fighters don't have a skyhook to rescue them!

Originally posted by Rewey
Also, what if the 'hijackers' learn how to turn? Apparently on 9/11 they knew how to do that quite well. Do you think the intercepting pilots would be sitting on the ground thinking "they're OK now, but if they turn... THEN we'll launch..."

Nope, the pilots were likely in the cockpit waiting for the Command Structure to make a decision. (Hoping they wouldn't have to do a night intercept.)

Originally posted by Rewey
I think the reason this was posted on ATS was to highlight that maybe in this case, it would have been more prudent to at least have someone in the air just in case...

Just in case of what? I feel confident they had the time and distance calculated including plenty of margin for error. They are not dummies, you know. They know their job quite well.

It's a very good thing that the decision is not made on ATS! I've explained it already. If you still don't understand take a look on Google Earth and use your head.



[edit on 25-10-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 25-10-2009 by Reheat]

Just my two cents...They were either 1. Asleep 2. Drunk 3. Having Sex

Originally posted by Marrr
Just my two cents...They were either 1. Asleep 2. Drunk 3. Having Sex

I've just heard reported this morning that the pilots and the airline have 'confirmed' that they were not arguing OR asleep, but wouldn't confirm why they'd missed or ignored the 13-or-so attempts to contact them...

Rew

It's obvious that Americans are being conditioned to accept that their own military forces are not adequate to protect them.

When they become terrified enough of the threat, stemming from this obvious lack of preparedness, solutions will be put before them for immediate implementation. They will be as follows.

1. Most importantly, a numerically aggressive implementation of increased financial disbersments must be undertaken in the procurement and deployment of both materiel and personnel to address this matter.

2. On an interim basis only and subject to strict supervision by native born American officers, specially trained international military personnel will take control of certain sectors of American military defenses where there have been shortfalls in the quality of protection performance. Norad, for example, on an interim basis only, will be operated by a joint task force of Russian and Chinese airforce personnel.

3. All domestic flights will from this point forward be required to carry wads of silly putty in the cockpit to amuse flight crew who are bored by flying.

hard to believe that these guys werent takin a cat nap some one said they think the cvr will be of no help because the 30min reset im okay with that but what about the fdau im at 37000fl over top of msp and im not recieving any inputs i guess were going for joyride and the flight attendants must have been asleep too it must have been their first trip msp and their time tables on arrival must have been off must have been big head winds going east no wait i think those are tailwinds the whole thing sounds kinda hokey maybe it was a delta capt and northwest fo im sure mgmt has thought this through not

Originally posted by Reheat
reply to post by thedman

 

I'll add one more point. There is no freakin' way that could happen with even one of those guys awake! One of the first and most important things a pilot learns from the beginning is division of attention. They were quiet obviously not monitoring anything. They were asleep.

Originally posted by Rewey
I've just heard reported this morning that the pilots and the airline have 'confirmed' that they were not arguing OR asleep, but wouldn't confirm why they'd missed or ignored the 13-or-so attempts to contact them...

I've just heard this morning that the airline is claiming the pilots were using their laptops to check scheduling details for their future flights.

That sounds a bit suss, doesn't it? Missed it by an hour? Missed 13 or so attempts to contact them?

Apparently they've been grounded as it is against company policy to be using laptops. Sounds like they're covering something up a little... laptops? That's their excuse?

Rewey

I am guessing, but, if you are a highjacker you would take the plane low and off the radar. This would create enough confusion that you would be able to stear the jetliner to it intended target.

Staying on the radar and flying straight so all the radars can see you isn't exactly motive to launch fighters to intercept. It doesn't seem condusive to a highjacking either.

Knowing when to make the call on something like this isn't as easy as it seems. Being quick to act can cause as many problems as not being quick to act.

That's just my best guess though.

I've just heard this morning that the airline is claiming the pilots were using their laptops to check scheduling details for their future flights.

... and here's a link to that story: Link to MSN video

That sounds a bit suss, doesn't it? Missed it by an hour? Missed 13 or so attempts to contact them?

Um, yeah... They were so engrossed in crew scheduling procedures that, despite repeated attempts to contact them, they overflew their destination by 100 miles...
W.o.W. all I can say is W.o.W.!



[edit on 26-10-2009 by Xenophobe]

reply to post by Rewey


Brings up a few questions though, huh?

Like, Did the aircraft have internet capability? If so, maybe they were logged into the company website(reviewing the companies new procedures), and NWA's knows they were. This could be why everyone is so quick to believe that this is what happened?

Otherwise, it seems completely unbelievable, I have to agree with reheat(oddly) that they were asleep. It's not like they can just come out and say that they were actually both passed out sleeping.

Either way they should both be punished severely, it will be interesting to see what actually happens to them. If you happened to watch the video Xenaphobe posted, the FAA is supposedly deciding whether to suspend them or revoke both of their licenses.

ok so my cat nap theory is toast oops but now we have a laptop theory get out of here im a 20yr mechanic at dfw and some of my birds ive worked on have come back to the gate but not very many dont have a laptop cellphone pda ipod blackberry and i cant twitter at all but many people i work with spend all day on that stuff alot of those planes never even think about leaving pilots have all that stuff too i know this because i have to get all stuff out of the cockpit before i can work on the systems and theyre always gabbin hard when i go out there i see th faa boys out there too and theyre on the phone and they cant find the plane there looking for either passengers arent much better they dont give me the time of day like they used too either i like to fill in the blanks when there on their phones i think it was something like grandma got run over by a reindeer walking home from okay ill stop but today i saw a soccer mom in an suv gabbin on a phone doing 45 in school zone at 230 trying mow some kids down but they say everyone needs to use their rollover minutes or they will be lost forever im nobody special but get that stuff away from me so i can atleast think my own thoughts

reply to post by Xenophobe

Um, yeah... They were so engrossed in crew scheduling procedures that, despite repeated attempts to contact them, they overflew their destination by 100 miles...

FAA is getting ready to pull their license

Imagine schedules will be free for considerable time from now.....

Update from ABC news about wayward Northwest airline flight

Trying contacting pilots on multiple frequencies with no response

When missed call to begin landing approach is when FAA became
concerned and %^&^* the fan...

abcnews.go.com...

Originally posted by Stillresearchn911
BTW, is it really true that the cockpit doors are impossible to get into now?

Yup, edit: well the cockpit crew can allow access - but it can only be opened from the inside. All current and future passenger aircraft with more than 20 seats and all cargo aircraft with cockpit doors have to be strengthened to a certain standard if they are to enter US airspace (not sure about other parts of the world).

Apparently the standard is like 50% stronger than law enforcement standards whatever that means - I'm assuming the minimum strength of a holding cell door?

Also the partition wall has to be strengthened to prevent shrapen and bullets passing through.

The lacking mechanism can only be operated from inside the cockpit, so it is possible to gain access to the cockpits, but only if you are let in - there must at least be peep holes I'd expect, probably a few pin hole cameras.

The doors were fairly standardised and and were subsidised to some extent by the US govt - so fitting each door only came to something like $12,000 - $17,000 per aircraft - which is pretty good if you ask me considering how much work on those aircraft usually costs.

link

[edit on 28/10/2009 by Now_Then]

reply to post by thedman


What do you mean it didn't deviate from the course? It overflew Minneapolis by 150 miles! I've been trying to imagine what the passengers were thinking. Seeing the city in the distance, getting ready for descent and landing and....just continuing on. Maybe they were too high to see the city, but they knew how much time had passed.

Also, I DON'T think they were doing schedules on their laptops. What kind of intense work prevents you from hearing the tower trying to talk to you?

Originally posted by wdkirk
Staying on the radar and flying straight so all the radars can see you isn't exactly motive to launch fighters to intercept. It doesn't seem condusive to a highjacking either.

Didn't Payne Stewart's plane fly in radar and at altitude and straight (since he was dead in the cockpit)? But yet, they still launched fighters?

What do you mean it didn't deviate from the course? It overflew Minneapolis by 150 miles! I've been trying to imagine what the passengers were thinking. Seeing the city in the distance, getting ready for descent and landing and....just continuing on. Maybe they were too high to see the city, but they knew how much time had passed.

After leaving Kansas City flight was normal in that it followed flight plan
and stayed on course and altitude - probably on autopilot. That it was
NORDO (no radio) was not that unusual. Only after missing approach
to Minneapolis did controllers become concerned and begin procedures
to launch fighters

Update from the FAA:

The Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday that it had revoked the licenses of the pilots of Northwest flight 188 — Timothy Cheney of Gig Harbor, Wash., the captain, and Richard Cole of Salem, Ore., the first officer.

gazettextra.com...

So looks like they will no longer be flying, unless appeals are granted.

Case closed? Looks like it.