Russia's Putin warns against intimidating Iran

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Why is it alright for the United States to give Israel billions of dollars and sophisticated weapons, or to use violence to force regime changes in Iraq and in Afghanistan but there is something really sinister about China and Russia investing in Iran which in China’s case Iran happens to be a legitimate and major oil supplier to and in Russia’s case they are simply making a profit from selling technology to Iran.

It is all bad.

I think you are to easy on Russia, and China, that's the problem,

Russia's Putin warns against intimidating Iran,

What exactly does warn mean to you?

[edit on 053131p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Once again you failed to post one fact in response to my questions to you.

Once again you have chosen to answer with paranoid delusions.

The Iranian President has never claimed to be a Messiah like figure. The Iranian regime is not trying to usher in a new Religious Age either.

The fact that Islam has such prophecies makes it absolutely no different than Judean/Christian nations who also have such prophecies regarding the coming of new religious ages.

George W. Bush, Jr. not only claimed that G-d told him in the Rose Garden to invade Iraq but had psalms specially printed on to his Daily War Reports from the Pentagon but no one was overly concerned he had his finger on the world’s most sophisticated and deadly nuclear arsenal.

All your religious based paranoid argument is designed for is to overcome the Mutual Assured Destruction maxim that keeps every nation that possesses Nuclear Weapons from using them by insinuating that the peace loving Iranian President and people who still HAVE NEVER ATTACKED ANYONE are going to willingly and deliberately sacrifice themselves in a nuclear battle that will lead to their destruction to carry out some prophecy.

That is pure nonsense aimed at religious xenophobes and the superstitious. It is pure conjecture and is not rooted in any fact based agenda that the Iranian President or Government has ever officially outlined or planned for or will.

It is nothing but you wanting to believe in a person’s insanity and a people’s collective insanity to justify insane violence against them.

The reality is that Israel and the United States have shown a far more violent propensity in evoking and utilizing religious superstition like “G-d gave us this land, it’s alright for us to steal it” and the underlying reality that the two wars we here in the United States are embroiled in maintain enough public support to keep them going because they have been marketed as more or less religious crusades to the large evangelical Christian portion of our society.

Once again all I have done in regards to Israel is point out facts regarding Israel.

Once again you display that facts are something you don’t feel Israel need to be bothered with as you despite that elevate yourself to some moral authority of who should and who shouldn’t have nuclear weapons based on why you ‘imagine’ someone might want them, while you ‘imagine’ what they might use them for, while you ‘imagine’ why they would use them even though it would be suicide on any nation’s part to fire nuclear weapons at another nation.

So it would appear based on your own words that you have no facts in why you feel the United States, England or even Israel is threatened by Iran other than religious xenophobia as you try to promote a needless war that will result in the deaths of innocent men, women and children and drive the price of oil through the roof and likely lead to the total collapse of the world economy. You contend we should risk all those things simply based on what you imagine Islam means to a man you have personally never met nor ever publicly said to anyone that Islam means those things to him or the people of the nation of Iran.

Not exactly a solid or fact based argument my friend.

You have though managed to clarify your position and the fact it’s not rooted in anything factual.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


The extremist nutjob likes to run his mouth - that does not constitute a realistic threat. Hostile? Sure. But for his bull**** speech to have any meaning, Iran needs to have means to wipe Israel off the map without being wiped off the map itself. Plain and simple - it does not and will not. Even a nuclear weapon would not allow it to wipe Israel off the map - because it in turn would also be turned into a pile of dust. Iranian leadership is not suicidal.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Finally the fact is Iran has never denied the holocaust it has questioned what really transpired in the holocaust and what and who drove those events and who and what most benefited from it.

I think you are fudging quite a bit there friend, Proto.





Ebadi says U.S. turns blind eye to Iranian rights

Students Protest at Tehran University
thelede.blogs.nytimes.com...

Some people would like us to believe the west conspired to raise decent,

IMHO you cannot make happy people rebel.

Originally posted by maloy
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

The extremist nutjob likes to run his mouth - that does not constitute a realistic threat. Hostile? Sure. But for his bull**** speech to have any meaning, Iran needs to have means to wipe Israel off the map without being wiped off the map itself. Plain and simple - it does not and will not. Even a nuclear weapon would not allow it to wipe Israel off the map - because it in turn would also be turned into a pile of dust. Iranian leadership is not suicidal.

That is no doubt, true, however a madmen could do such a thing.

And Israel must realize the same.

[edit on 063131p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

The al-Mahdi & Iranian nuclear policy

Mahdists believe that this Caliph will someday return and reign supreme over the Earth for seven to nine years preceding the end of the world. According to these Muslims, the al-Mahdi will come only in a time of great suffering and apocalypse. When he does come he will unite the world under a single Islamic religion and maintain peace throughout his reign over the world.

Iran’s ruling mullahs and legitimacy-questioned President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are firm believers in the al-Mahdi myth. It is this firm and publicly declared belief that drives them, at the expense of millions of Iranians, to acquire nuclear weapons and reliable delivery vehicles for them. In launching nuclear attacks around the world and suffering a nuclear retaliation the seemingly insane mullahs and Ahmadinejad will have brought about the great suffering and apocalypse required to summon the al-Mahdi and usher in the countdown to the end of the world.

www.examiner.com...

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Ahmadinejad does not seem like a madman to me. I am no psychologist of course, but I haven't yet seen any assesment by anyone questioning his mental state. Individuals with more anger than a sense of self preservation are not usually leaders but followers. Also I don't think Ahmadinejad has total control of Iran's military and foreign policy actions. There are individuals that pull his strings - he is mostly a mouthpiece.

Overall I think Iranian leadership is more interested in their continued survival than in destruction of Israel. The threat of mutually assured destruction will pervail over whatever fantasies they profess.

I emphatically declare that today's world, more than ever before, longs for just and righteous people with love for all humanity; and above all longs for the perfect righteous human being and the real savior who has been promised to all peoples and who will establish justice, peace and brotherhood on the planet," Ahmadinejad said. "Oh, Almighty God, all men and women are your creatures and you have ordained their guidance and salvation. Bestow upon humanity that thirsts for justice, the perfect human being promised to all by you, and make us among his followers and among those who strive for his return and his cause."

Ahmadinejad quotes

# They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets."

# "We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them."

# "The real Holocaust is what is happening in Palestine where the Zionists avail themselves of the fairy tale of Holocaust as blackmail and justification for killing children and women and making innocent people homeless."

# "The West claims that more than six million Jews were killed in World War II and to compensate for that they established and support Israel. If it is true that the Jews were killed in Europe, why should Israel be established in the East, in Palestine?"

# "If you have burned the Jews, why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel. Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"

Threats against Israel

# "Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury."

# "Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations."

# "The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

# "If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d' tre, Israel will be annihilated."

# "Israel is a tyrannical regime that will one day will be destroyed."

# "Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm."

Relations with West

# "[There is] no significant need for the United States."

# "Iranians possess delicate characteristics. They introduce their merits, which are extremely attractive to whole the world."

# "We are ready to hold dialogue with all countries of the world except for the Israeli regime."

# "Those who insulted the prophet should know that you cannot obscure the sun with a handful of dust. The dust will just get back and blind your own eyes."

# "We increasingly see that people around the world are flocking towards a main focal point - that is the Almighty God. My question for you is, 'Do you not want to join them?'"

# "There are no limits to our dialogue."

# "Do you think you are dealing with a 4-year-old child to whom you can give some walnuts and chocolates and get gold from him?"

Conspiracy theory

# "Could [9/11] be planned and executed without coordination with intelligence and security services - or their extensive infiltration? Of course this is just an educated guess. Why have the various aspects of the attacks been kept secret? Why are we not told who botched their responsibilities? And, why aren't those responsible and the guilty parties identified and put on trial?"

reply to post by maloy

There are individuals that pull his strings - he is mostly a mouthpiece.

There is no doubt about that.

Overall I think Iranian leadership is more interested in their continued survival than in destruction of Israel.

# "We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them."

Ahmadinejad


How so?



I was of the notion Israel was worried about it survival as well.

[edit on 063131p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Why can't these people just get along for god's sake?

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

Overall I think Iranian leadership is more interested in their continued survival than in destruction of Israel.

How so?

I was of the notion Israel was worried about it survival as well.
[edit on 063131p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

I meant that Iran is more interested in Iran's continued survival. That is what makes them not suicidal.


And I don't really see what the Holocaust denials have to do with credible threat to Israel. I think denying the Holocaust in wrong on many levels, but Iran's leadership is free to run its mouth how it sees fit. Israel's safety is not compromised.


The issue I have is that if US and Israel want sanctions against Iran so bad - what are they trying to accomplish with it? Sanctions will not help depose Iran's leadership or give its opposition more leverage. They will not stop the flow of money from oil sales into Iran (there is always demand, regardless of sanctions). They will not prevent Iran from continuing the nuclear program. They will not make Iranian people any better dispositioned towards Israel or the US. Sanctions will not achieve anything beneficial.


[edit on 14-10-2009 by maloy]

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Why is it alright for the United States to give Israel billions of dollars and sophisticated weapons, or to use violence to force regime changes in Iraq and in Afghanistan but there is something really sinister about China and Russia investing in Iran which in China’s case Iran happens to be a legitimate and major oil supplier to and in Russia’s case they are simply making a profit from selling technology to Iran.

It is all bad.

I think you are to easy on Russia, and China, that's the problem,

Russia's Putin warns against intimidating Iran,

What exactly does warn mean to you?

[edit on 053131p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Warn means to me a little red badge on my avatar when the ATS G-ds take offence at a member's actions!

I personally feel that both Russia and China are owned and run at the highest level by the same clique of American and European Oligarchs and all of this is simple political theatre meant to both distract people from much more serious legitimate domestic and international problems and everything being said and done by all the players involved is designed to try to garner enough support for Americans to support a third war being fought against Iran.

The level of Press and Political Attention Iran has received now for months simply signals to me that the Oligarchs are going to make a serious and credible attempt to restore the Peacock Throne in Iran and to make the Prince the next Shah.

All this Iranian election and nuclear nonsense is just nonsense being grossly and wildly distorted as a means to and a ramp up for a very costly and potentially the end of life as we know it war with Iran.

I don’t care who anyone worships, what color their skin is, or within what borders they were born. The American government is not a true reflection of the American people, it exists for its own glory, profit and power and posterity. I do not believe Russia’s, China’s, Iran’s or Israel’s Governments are a reflection of those peoples either.

All people universally want the same thing, a dry roof over their heads, food in their stomachs, a way to earn and acquire life’s necessities and to live safely and securely.

Sadly all peoples trust in and look to their government’s to help provide these things. Different methods and different governments but the reality is that we are ‘one’ people.

The reality is no government anywhere in the world is really delivering on the universal things that all people want and genuinely need. Instead they all profit obscenely from the fact that their peoples seemingly have no choice but to look to their government to provide what the governments refuse to provide.

We can’t feed our poor but we have the most expensive and technologically advanced weapons coming out of our ears. We can’t solve our own Health Care Crisis but we can wrack up 10 trillion dollars in debt to the people and 10 trillion dollars in profits to the Military Industrial Complex to spend American lives and 8 long years of morally bankrupt and debilitating war on two nations that could have never mounted serious attacks against us or successfully invaded us.

I am about as worried about China, Russia or Iran as I am the sun might not come up tomorrow.

The people of America only have one credible and serious enemy that is committed to our destruction as a nation and our failure as a peoples and that enemy is the American Government. The American Government is owned lock, stock and barrel by the Military Industrial Complex, their associated Banks, and the Oil Companies and their associated Banks and all their associated Corporate Lobbyists.

Life as we know it is rapidly coming to an end and will end entirely if we don’t stop falling for these petty lies, manipulative acts, and allowing our own emotional hot buttons like fear, anger and hate to be used collectively to the people’s own detriment but the Banks, Oil Companies and Military Industrial Complex insane and quality of life robbing profits and control.

Personally I think the Iranian President isn’t guilty of or desiring the Quran’s prophecies coming true but I sure do see way to many fellow Americans all to happy to see Holy Roman Biblical Prophecy come true either through complacency, resignation, or actively pursuing the political policies and supporting the politicians who are dangerously close to mimicking Biblical events.

It is because of that the Original Poster has confidence in his religious xenophobia arguments because he knows that there are enough Zionist Christians who are anxious and active towards Biblical Prophecy coming true that they would believe Iran would risk nuclear annihilation to bring Quran Prophecy to life and to also try to make it ome true.

All people want the same thing the world over, and like the people all Governments want the same things too. Not what the people want, but power over the people they rule over, ultimately the power to commit them to insane and deadly acts of violence of their own volition or to support and pay financially for deadly acts of violence.

That is the exact opposite of what the people really want.

Yet the people fall for the same old manipulations time after time.

What does a warning from a government mean to me? Absolutely not a thing never had and never will.

It is our own governments that are our worst and most deadly and serious enemy not foreign ones.

I personally feel that both Russia and China are owned and run at the highest level by the same clique of American and European Oligarchs

Yes I would like to delve farther into that possibility,

But If China and Russia support Iran, it doesn't make sense.

I didn't read all of your post yet.

[edit on 063131p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by sickofitall2012
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

How cooperative would you be if the president of a country with nuclear capabilities said ...

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".

, and denied the holocaust ever happened.
www.globalresearch.ca...

How cooperative should the world be with the USA? The only country to have and have used atomic weapons.
Reminds me of the cold war. "We must destroy the communist regime". Now that didnt mean that the US wanted to exterminate all the Russians now did it?
At least you got the translation right and didnt use the "wiped off the map".

As far as the denying the holocaust, did he flat out deny it ever happened OR did he just question some of what has been written into the history
books on the holocast? If someone can provide a link to where he denied the holocaust I would be interested in seeing that.

I don't disagree with most of your post.

Yes some Christians want to see prophecy fulfilled, I was one that prayed for it not to.

Maybe I am bad.

I believe we are living in the last days, but I also believe the transition doesn't have to be violent.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


If we had a telepath handy they could read Putin's mind. Absent that, it seems clear to me that if Iran is attacked Russia would resupply her, including military arms.

It would be like North Vietnam. Without proof, I feel that there are Russians manning some of the Oniks missiles overlooking the gulf. They won't all miss.

The "Plan", seemed to be to do Iran like Iraq. First, the Israelis would take out Bushehr. The the Iranians would sulk. A false flag. Then an air assault.

Pause in action then an actual invasion.

But this would put "coalition" forces right on the Black Sea area. The US could then put a missile defense shield right up Putin's nose.

But as was seen in South Ossetia, Putin seems ready to use ss-20s if Russian armored forces are hit with precision munitions, he did not seem to want supply lines cut off to Iran.

During the last Olympics Russian forces seemed to be drawn out so they could be slaughtered by precision munitions. Putin brought out the ss-20s and that was that.

BTW, it was not my understanding that the ss-20s were filled with pinata candy.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

I personally feel that both Russia and China are owned and run at the highest level by the same clique of American and European Oligarchs

Yes I would like to delve farther into that possibility,

But If China and Russia support Iran, it doesn't make sense.

I didn't read all of your post yet.

[edit on 063131p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Sure it does for the simple reason that as we have seen here on this thread that some people here in America are automatically against anything the Russia and China are for.

People are so conditioned towards thinking in predisposed ways with fixed perspectives that ultimately things like the Oligarchs controlling China and Russia do dor the Oligarchs is just add one more reinforcing layer.

"Wow I wasn't that worried about the Iranians until I found the Ruskies are backing them"

"Wow I wasn't that worried about the Iranians until I found the Chinese are backing, the Chinese are trying to take over the world"

The Chinese haven't even figured out how to get an invasion force across the Straights of Taiwan to take it over yet and that would be the first part of the world the 'real' Chinese want to take over, meanwhile the Oligarchs are planning a Chinese take over of Target not that the take over of Wal-Mart is complete.

It's hysterical the Israelis will talk to Russia about there Iranian concerns but not the actual Iranians. We will talk to the Chinese about our North Korean concerns but not directly to the North Koreans.

Governments are never interested in working out their problems with each other with each other, they are interested in creating a problem that they can manipulate the people in to believing it is a problem to get the people to pay in dollars and lives for what the Oligarchs want and could buy and pay for themselves in most cases, but in most cases would like the poor little guy to go out and pay for it in every conceivable way and then deliver it to the Oligarchs on a Silver Platter.

reply to post by total newbie


I just heard an interesting conversation, Putin aligns himself with Iran

oil cartel is formed,

Putin gains power over Europe, because they have to go through Russia to get oil.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Well Soros and Strong are a part of your Oligarchs,

Maurice Strong,
www.canadafreepress.com...

Proto, why would i trust China and Russia or my own government?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


The US dollar is looking pretty anemic. Some are looking for a chance to dump it. Esp. the Chinese.

Military actions at this time could have really bad economic results. The Big Bankers seem on Obama's side. If he upsets Israel, well, you can't make everyone happy.

Even if Iran was destroyed, how long after would Russia itself be seen by "our friends' as an existential threat?