To our forum plane experts - shame on you.

I thought it was stated that at such a low speed and altitude the planes would of falen apart cos they aint designed to take the stresses.i myself wonder why the wings never sheared off?

reply to post by tezzajw


I am asking how did the fire start? People smelled jet fuel and see fire

Now a rational person would conclude that the jet fuel and fires are
related

Originally posted by thedman
I am asking how did the fire start? People smelled jet fuel and see fire

thedman, assuming that UA175 hit WTC 2, then it's fairly obvious that jet fuel would have started the fire on the 78th floor.

When was that ever in dispute?

The 78th floor was directly damaged by the plane, so it stands to reason that jet fuel would have been present on that floor.

You stated on the previous page that the fire did not spread to the 77th floor. I have been asking for official government story believers who claim that there fires throughout the towers (ignited by jet fuel) to show me the distribution of jet fuel within the tower.

You've stated that the 78th floor fire did not spread to the 77th floor, so you're contradicting what some official government story believers want us to believe about the jet fuel 'flowing' and 'raining' down the floors!

reply to post by tezzajw


Want some evidence ?

People on lower floors smelling jet fuel and seeing fires

75-70th floor
Joseph Dittmar: Dittmar continued down the stairwell. When he got between the 75th and 70th floors, he said he felt the building sway.

"I've never felt anything like that in all my life. The building literally swayed and shook from side to side," Dittmar said.

Dittmar later would learn that a plane also had crashed into the south tower.
"We immediately smelled the jet fuel," Dittmar said. "And we felt one ball of heat, one ball of heat that just went blowing by us faster than I could say it."http://www.wtceskp.com/uploads/Kane%20County%20Chronicle%209-7-03.doc

Smelling jet fuel Fireball

70th floor, Clyde Ebanks: "I think now, these popping sounds were coming out of the elevator shafts because of the fireball that was coming down. The popping sounds, I think, were the elevator doors opening up because of the fireball." (Richard Bernstein: Out of the Blue. New York: Times Books, 2002. p. 222)

70th floor - fireball from elevator shaft

Below 44th floor on 175 impact
Joy Shepard: “When it hit, it just jolted the whole stairway. You could smell the jet fuel. A crack appeared in the wall. Smoke filled the stairwell. The skylight above us blew out of the building.” talkwisdom.blogspot.com...

Jet fuel on 44th floor

25th floor
Eric S. Levine: Somewhere around the 25th floor, we began to smell jet fuel and a lot of it. I have asthma and it began to become a little difficult to breathe but by the 15th floor it became unbearable due to the amount of smoke that was now entering the stairwell. news.bbc.co.uk...

25th floor - jet fuel

South Tower lobby
Firefighter Timothy Brown: "We finally set up -- prior to this I believe it was the west side of the core of the building there were elevators. Someone had come to me and said that there were people trapped in one of those elevators. So I ran around the corner, and the hoist way doors were open, but the elevator car was only showing about two feet at the top of the door. You could see all the legs of the people that were in the elevator. I would guess there were about eight people in the elevator. The elevator pit was on fire with the jet fuel. People were screaming in the elevator. They were getting smoked and cooked. There weren't a lot of firemen there at the time. I grabbed some of the Port Authority employees and asked them where the fire extinguishers were and told them to get as many fire extinguishers as they could so we could try and fight this fire. As they were doing that, firemen started showing up, and I started asking them to get big cans, let's try to put this fire out." --hosted.ap.org...

Fire in elevator pit at lobby with burning jet fuel

You're stating that the fire did not spread...

Originally posted by thedman
Only reason fires didn't spread is because 78th floor is Sky (elevator lobby) where workers changed elevators. Not much burn as composed
of elevator machinery with tile floors and marble panel walls.

Now you'e giving me quotes about jet fuel being lower than the 78th floor with witness statements...

How much jet fuel did Dittmar smell? 1L? 10L?
Ebanks did not mention jet fuel. The only mention was a fireball.
How much jet fuel did Shepard smell? 1L? 10L?
How much jet fuel did Levine smell? 1L? 10L?
Brown saw a fire in the elevator. How did he know it was started by jet fuel? How much jet fuel? 1L? 10L?

You bring the argument back to my square one point, thedman...

Where is the proof for how much jet fuel was present in any particular part of the tower? None of those witness statements were definitive about any aspect of the jet fuel.

Originally posted by thedman
[Bttalion Chief Orio Palmer reported 2 fires on 78 th floor - now explain
how these fires started? Careless smoking?

Wingtip of United 175 raked through the floor killing & injuring numerous
people there. Among them were people severely burned

Ladder 15's transcript does not state the firefighters seeing any jet fuel fires on the lower floors as they made their way to the 78th floor.

Originally posted by REMISNE
Ladder 15's transcript does not state the firefighters seeing any jet fuel fires on the lower floors as they made their way to the 78th floor.

...and what floors did the plane impact, Roger? Thats like saying I didnt see fires in Oregon, when we are talking about the fires in California.

I have read this entire thread and am amazed that we, as americans, are still at odds as to what happened. We all need to get on the same page and go after one thing. We need to MAKE our current and future government tell us the truth about everything they are involved with and we need to hold them accountable. Anyone caught lying would be terminated immediately by the people and that person wouldn't get a lifelong pension and insurance.

The only way to get the truth is to demand the truth. Doesn't it bother anyone here that we have to file FOIA papers to get documents that are "ours" (remember we the people) anyway?

I, for one, saw a controlled demolition on 911. I have 15 years experience designing buildings. Does this make me an expert? No....Why?...Because I am not an expert on airplanes, fires, fuel, office furniture burning temperatures, explosives, etc. But my gut instinct said that the building was falling and at the same time was "exploding" debris outward and upward. Looked fishy to me.

I cannot answer as to how much damage an airliner can do to a building because we had no studies until now. It certainly does make one wonder though, what happened to all those pieces of airplane, luggage, people, office furniture, etc.

I mean, come on, they even found parts from the shuttle and it had to make it though our atmosphere to hit earth and still had pieces intact.....

Focus on the truth. It's hard to find out there these days but when seen, it sure cuts out lots of crap that is fed to us from those that are supposed to be protecting us.

my 1/2 cent worth.

peas

reply to post by REMISNE

Ladder 15's transcript does not state the firefighters seeing any jet fuel fires on the lower floors as they made their way to the 78th floor.

Like someone standing on deck of TITANIC saying - Gee whats all the fuss
I don't see any water. While ship floods below him

Aircraft struck building from 84th to 78th floors

Refer to other accounts from people in building reporting fires and jet fuel
on numerous floors

Originally posted by thedman
Refer to other accounts from people in building reporting fires and jet fuel
on numerous floors

I already poined out to you that there was nothing definitive from any of those witnesses regarding the quantity of jet fuel below the 78th floor.

None of those witnesses stated how much there was, other than some of them could smell it. Some of those witnesses didn't even mention jet fuel, they only mentioned fires.

reply to post by tezzajw

I already poined out to you that there was nothing definitive from any of those witnesses regarding the quantity of jet fuel below the 78th floor.

So a jet airgraft rams into your building and you want the people to
measure how much jet fuel was in the building!

Think they would have something else on their mind

What about Fireman reporting burning pool of jet fuel in elevator pit ?

Plane had over 9,000 gal (that 60,000 lbs of fuel) - even accounting
for fuel which burned off in fireball was still several thousands of gallons
flowing in that building.

Was at car fire yesterday when fuel tank ruptured and burning gasoline
was running all over street - we didnt debate how many gallons of gas
were flowing down street. We shouted warnings and put the DAMMED
FIRE OUT!

Originally posted by thedman
So a jet airgraft rams into your building and you want the people to
measure how much jet fuel was in the building!

When people claim that every single fire in the tower was the result of burning jet fuel, it makes you wonder how much jet fuel was spread throughout the tower. There was a finite amount of jet fuel on the plane. Some specific quantification for where th jet fel could have spread would be useful.

Seeing a 'fireball' as some people claim, does not mean that particular fireball was ignited with jet fuel.

Originally posted by thedman
What about Fireman reporting burning pool of jet fuel in elevator pit ?

What of it? How much jet fuel was there? 1L? 10L? It means nothing, thedman. It's an inaccurate report about the possible presence of some jet fuel in one elevator.

Originally posted by thedman
Plane had over 9,000 gal (that 60,000 lbs of fuel) - even accounting
for fuel which burned off in fireball was still several thousands of gallons
flowing in that building.

Do you realise the miniscule volume of jet fuel there was, compared to even one floor of the tower?

Originally posted by tezzajw
Seeing a 'fireball' as some people claim, does not mean that particular fireball was ignited with jet fuel.

Do you realise the miniscule volume of jet fuel there was, compared to even one floor of the tower?

The fact is two jet aircraft; each with 66,000 pounds of jet fuel impacted the WTC. The jet fuel fireball was due to Jet Fuel, a fact only conspiracy theorists armed with hearsay and opinions balk at. Nothing for 8 years has shed doubt on that fact except idle conspiracy talk made up out of nothing, no evidence no facts.

Miniscule volume of jet fuel had the heat energy of 315 TONS of TNT. I doubt if office fires have been started with larger amounts of accelerate.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f84470ea3d93.jpg[/atsimg]
Jet fuel fireball. I await your long list of aircraft accident investigators who stand with the fantasy it is not a jet fuel fireball. The fireball was ignited by the fires in the jet engine which operates over 800 degree C.

What is the fantasy story instead of jet fuel fireball? What makes the exact fireball of a jet going 590 mph and impacting a building with the fuel in the wings, around the engines full of fuel?

reply to post by iSunTzu


At what point did your post address my question?

Where did you supply for me an accurate distribution of jet fuel within the towers?

NIST failed to do it and all you've done is go on some rant about the large fireball being jet fueled. If a plane hit the tower, then of course the fireball would have been fueled by jet fuel.

reply to post by theonlyrusty

Does this make me an expert? No....Why?...Because I am not an expert on airplanes, fires, fuel, office furniture burning temperatures, explosives, etc. But my gut instinct said that the building was falling and at the same time was "exploding" debris outward and upward. Looked fishy to me.

Well I am pretty savvy with airplanes (over 20 years now) and with blowing stuff up (over 20 years now) and what I saw on 9/11, did not begin resemble any of the controlled demolitions (which include watching two building implosions and hearing a third) I have seen in my life.

I mention the bit about hearing the third demolition because I was five miles away from the 10 story building they were bringing down and could easily hear the charges going off.......no demolition charges were heard going off that day in Manhatten......

Originally posted by tezzajw
reply to post by iSunTzu

 

At what point did your post address my question?

Where did you supply for me an accurate distribution of jet fuel within the towers?

NIST failed to do it and all you've done is go on some rant about the large fireball being jet fueled. If a plane hit the tower, then of course the fireball would have been fueled by jet fuel.

Don't need an accurate distribution of jet fuel. The jet fuel started fires on multiple floors. The largest high-rise office fires ever. The office fires are what destroyed the WTC, the impacts and jet fuel set the fires. Please show us a fire started with 10,000 gallons of jet fuel any other time in history. Who brings 2,000 5 gallon gas cans, or 10,000 1 gallon gas cans to start a fire? 10,000?

BIG FIRE! Caused by the most accelerant used in a single office high-rise fire in history done my terrorists.

You implied the lie the fireballs were not due to jet fuel. Your statement was misleading and false. Both planes brought 10,000 gallons and there is no doubt the fireballs are jet fuel, and only jet fuel.

Jet fuel fire ball. Look to see the distribution. Use your imagination and think of 10,000 1 gallon containers of jet fuel to figure out the distribution of jet fuel moving at 700 feet per second.

What would you do with an accurate distribution of jet fuel from a 2000 pounds of TNT kinetic energy impact?
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1ff318d56822.jpg[/atsimg]

It started office fires not fought. Killed people.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/af47f164b1d4.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/758e4313d4b1.jpg[/atsimg]

So why can’t the fireballs be from jet fuel? Wait, you agree the fireballs were from jet fuel and you think the OP is a false. I thought you were saying the fireballs were not jet fuel but you said they are from jet fuel.

Planes did hit the WTC and there were jet fuel fireballs, claims to the contrary are false and based on nothing.
You keep saying if a plane hit; 8 years of if with no evidence?

Originally posted by iSunTzu
Don't need an accurate distribution of jet fuel.

I, along with others will be glad to disagree with you here.

When some official government story believers claim that the basement was blown out, due to jet fuel, then there should be some quantity provided.

Seeing fires does not equate to seeing jet fuelled fires. There is a difference.

Originally posted by iSunTzu
You implied the lie the fireballs were not due to jet fuel.

No, you're wrong there. I did not imply that at all. That's your incorrect interpretation.

I'm certainly willing to accept that some of the fireballs probably were due to jet fuel. However, it's a sticking point for official government story believers to claim that every fire in the tower was due to jet fuel.

Do you think that the basement was blown out by a jet fuelled fireball?

reply to post by tezzajw


So are you suggesting the fires and the fireball in the basement, was from something else? What else could it be tezz? High power explosives? Despite the fact you deny you are saying something else could have caused it, your innuendos and vague statements, suggest otherwise.

Well ok then tezz, if you do not believe that jet fuel is what created the downward moving fireballs down the shafts as reported by survivors, and blowing out the elevator doors and burning people to crisp inside the elevators, and creating areas of fire at the base of the elevator shafts, then tell us what ALTERNATE idea you have as to what could have caused it. And how exactly is a complex mathematical equation and a complex jet fuel distribution analysis (down to the ounce) going to change your mind if you cannot even comprehend or acknowledge something easy as jet fuel spilling down shafts and incinerating people and blowing out elevator doors, after a fueled 767 just slammed into the building?

Originally posted by GenRadek
So are you suggesting the fires and the fireball in the basement, was from something else?

I don't know what caused the alleged fires and fireballs in the basement, GenRadek.

If you think they were from jet fuel, then how much jet fuel caused them?

Originally posted by GenRadek
Well ok then tezz, if you do not believe that jet fuel is what created the downward moving fireballs down the shafts as reported by survivors, and blowing out the elevator doors and burning people to crisp inside the elevators,

Which elevators were blown out by jet fuel? How much jet fuel blew out those elevators?

No, wait... don't answer. I asked you that question earlier this year and here's your answer:

Originally posted by GenRadek
I do not know how much jet fuel poured down. What, would you like an answer in gallons, liters, grams, milliliters, or how about metric tons?

Any unit of measure will be fine, GenRadek. You have had all year to try and quantify the jet fuel, so how has that research been going?

reply to post by tezzajw


So you ARE ignoring the fully fueled 767 that just impacted the WTC above, and had its jet fuel spill down the shafts then? Well there is your problem tezz! You ignore the obvious! How much jet fuel caused the doors to blow off? gee tezz, the fire fighters and eyewitness accounts that saw it happen right in front of their eyes saw it and know. Why are you ignoring them? It did happen tezz, it did. But no, it couldnt have happened because you need to know the exact amount, right down to the 1/10 of an ounce of jet fuel, because if without those numbers, then to you, it didnt happen and its all fantasy. Tezz, I asked you this before, when will you put such micro-scrutiny on ANY of the CT ideas and claims? I mean if you are trying to be fair or "get down to the truth" then lets see you micro-analyze SPreston, or Craig, or anyone there.

but no no, rather than focusing on the obvious, continue over analyzing micro-details about what amounts of jet fuel should be to be able to do anything that happened at the WTCs. Some how, the FDNY that first responded could figure it out, the people that were there figured it out. Why is it so hard for you?