How much are the deaths of over 6000 soldiers to you?

Originally posted by NatureBoy
so tell me, why should i cry just because a murderer and theif dies?

I am all for freedom of speech but you are over-dramatizing so strongly here and being extremely offensive with your lack of knowledge on the life of soldiering.

I have been a soldier for a long time and I was a good solder with true friendships, more a brotherhood I have never been able to make outside on civilian life.

That is why your words are very offensive to me. I have known soldiers who have died just doing their job, the job my lowlife government sends them out to do. I have also known men who were soldiers who killed themselves because they could not slot back into society. So tragic that they are also called thieves and murderers so flippantly and with easy regard.

They cannot say no, they take the queens shilling, they go where they are sent and there is no debate. Then years later once their usefulness is spent they are thrown away and told to get on with it.

I have never seen a soldier murder anyone and rarely have I seen theft from soldier to solder, and I have NEVER seen a soldier steal anything from a civilian. If I had I would say so and it would have been dealt with most severely I can assure you.

One thing that is not tolerated in the army is a thief. I have seen a thieving soldier suffer a broken hand and a bad beating for such an act. Once you are tarred with that brush it follows you for years.

Yes there are scum in the military but there are scum in every profession. Most soldiers I knew did the job because they loved the job of soldering, not because they wanted to kill someone or steal someones possessions. Those who join because it is just a job do not tend to last longer than a few years and they also tend to grind everyone else's gears with the bad attitude they carry like a bad smell.

Real soldiers are not murderers and they are not thieves! In my opinion, soldiers are the best of a society and it is not their fault if they are forced to follow a sick governments secret agenda.

To reiterate, the very best of society, but then I would say that because I am a biased former murdering theif

reply to post by Jenna


Okay. I know this is ATS so I'll speak really slowly and try not to use too many big words. Perhaps I am misunderstanding, in which case I will be the first to admit I am wrong. I believe you were stating that not all the soldiers over their are "murderers and thieves". Doesn't matter. However noble and just you believe yourself to be doesn't change the fact that you are part of a mercenary, imperialist war machine. You are not part of the solution. You are still part of the problem. As I say if I have misunderstood I apologize. I may be a pedant and a snob but i will admit when I am wrong. It just happens so rarely.

The way I see it, none of these wars was necessary.
None of them were justified.
The Elites just like playing games.
We the People are just pawns on their chess board.

We are no different than the peasants living on the King's/Baron's land in the days of old, except that we have TV and neat electronic toys to take our minds off the Fees they extract from us.

Can anyone think of any laws or any actions of any kind that were a direct benefit to We The People? How many of them have we even benefitted from indirectly?

I can't find any.

They send our sons to the killing fields and tell us he died for our freedom.
I can't see that either. Maybe it just my lieing eyes again. Been having lots of trouble with them for a very long time and it is getting worse.

Re soldiers. They are TRAINED to be killers. That's what they do.That is their job. There is a problem tho in that the trainers with their up to date training methods do such a good job that these men then have to be or should be retrained/detrained when they go home.
I cannot condemn them for killing everything tha moves. This is what their training and all those drugs did to them. That is what war is all about.
Killing people and breaking things.


[edit on 25-9-2009 by OhZone]

Originally posted by Jenna

Sure I can, watch.

I am against the outrageous spending on government programs that either aren't necessary or aren't working, not to mention all the fraud in many of those programs. I support spending that actually goes to the defense of the country which naturally means having a fully staffed, fully operational, fully equipped military.

I'm sorry, but are you honestly trying to say that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary and working?

Do you actually believe that they are being waged for the defense of the nation?

Can you sit there with a straight face and tell me that there was any justification at all for our invasion of these two countries?


I couldn't help but notice how many of the posters, including yourself, who have attempted to justify these occupations have mentioned 9/11.

Despite what you believe about 9/11 (there are many theories with more credibility than the official story), you can't deny the fact that Iraq and Afghanistan had absolutely nothing to do with the events on 9/11. President Bush even admitted that himself!

So where is the justification, then, for the 6000+ slain Americans? Where is the justification for the 1000000+ slain middle eastern citizens? Where is the justification for the hundreds of billions in spending?

Please do not say 9/11. Iraq and Afghanistan had nothing to do with it, besides the fact that it drummed up negative public opinion towards middle easterners in general.

Please do not say national defense. These nations never attacked us, placed sanctions on us or even threatened us. If you were concerned with national defense you would be against foreign occupations (which only serve to endanger our nation in the long run), and for strengthening our borders, which are still wide-open.

So what's left? Where do you possibly draw the justification for our dead men and women, many of them barely adults?

And to the genius who compared our 6,000 to the 600,000 who died in the civil war, all I have to say is don't strain your brain too much, you might pull a thinkin' muscle.

reply to post by concernedcitizan


Sir,

Another ad hominem argument, if I am not mistaken.

Why do you feel the need to be patronising when, if I'm being honest, you are not coming across as the most articulate poster in the world.

I find the comment about long words insulting to a fellow ATSer.

Needless and wrong. I'd be grateful if you'd address this. Granted I', not a mod so please feel free to ignore me. I just value decency and decorum.

Cado.

Originally posted by drwizardphd
Please do not say national defense. These nations never attacked us, placed sanctions on us or even threatened us. If you were concerned with national defense you would be against foreign occupations (which only serve to endanger our nation in the long run), and for strengthening our borders, which are still wide-open..

So, Iraq was being picked on by the big, bad West, huh? I wonder what sort of answer you'd get from the citizens of Kuwait during the First Gulf War? You know, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, the Coalition pushed him back across the border, and then the UN slap some sanctions on him?

I won't get into the Taliban/Bin Laden/Afghanistan deal.

Originally posted by drwizardphd
....don't strain your brain too much, you might pull a thinkin' muscle. .

Now that's funny.

reply to post by cado angelus


The inability to laugh at oneself should be considered a sign of seroius mental illness.In which case everyone on ATS is most certainly certifiable.It was not my intention to be insulting, just having a bit of fun. If you are that thin skinned i'm sorry. But since self righteousness and humorlessness is par for the course here I should have known better. I was even pretty self deprecating at the end, I thought. Oh well, sorry to have offended you. i hope that was coherent enough for you. Oh I did it again.

reply to post by concernedcitizan


Don't worry, I can laugh at myself.

However, I don't feel that a thread regarding the deaths of countless young people is the place for humour, do you?

I didn't pick up on any self-deprecation. I'm sorry. It's been a long week.


Cado

reply to post by cado angelus


You have to laugh to keep from crying.

reply to post by concernedcitizan


Now there is a sentiment I agree with ;-) LOL - we finally agree.

not a one liner.

Originally posted by drwizardphd
I'm sorry, but are you honestly trying to say that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary and working?

Didn't actually read the rest of my post did you? If you had you wouldn't have asked about Iraq.

Do you actually believe that they are being waged for the defense of the nation?

Iraq? No. Afghanistan? In the beginning it was, unfortunately that was forgotten in favor of focusing on Iraq.

Can you sit there with a straight face and tell me that there was any justification at all for our invasion of these two countries?

Invade a country? No. Go after the SOB's who are responsible? Darn straight.

Despite what you believe about 9/11 (there are many theories with more credibility than the official story), you can't deny the fact that Iraq and Afghanistan had absolutely nothing to do with the events on 9/11.

You don't know what I believe since I haven't said so here and haven't posted in a 9/11 thread more than twice in the last three years. Please don't pretend you do.

So where is the justification, then, for the 6000+ slain Americans? Where is the justification for the 1000000+ slain middle eastern citizens? Where is the justification for the hundreds of billions in spending?

Like I said in my first post here:

Thousands of people have died needlessly, I agree with you on that. However, we were attacked and innocent people lost their lives just because they were at work that day. As horrifying as it is to me that innocent people have lost their lives since the wars began, the people responsible for the trade center attacks need to be found and be held accountable.

reply to post by concernedcitizan


I like big words. But if you prefer small ones, that's fine with me. And no, humor doesn't come across well in text though I did find your last line rather amusing. (And knowing how horribly humor comes across, I was smiling when I typed that last line.)

So what would you like? Should I provide stats for how many soldiers actually do commit murder or theft as compared to the rest of society? Should I provide first-hand accounts to prove you wrong?

Or perhaps we can skip all the posts in which I prove the assumption that all soldiers are murdering thieves is wrong while you maintain that it doesn't matter? I vote for that one. Saves time, and keeps us from taking David's thread any further off-topic. If you want to start a thread on it I'd be more than happy to debate it with you there though, just point me to it.

everyone in the army, EVERYONE, is there to make sure the united states can field a powerfull force of deadly effectiveness - i'm sure you agree right?

All those people are responceable for the unlawful deaths of dozerns of innocent people - thus they are murderers.

All those people helped to reinstate the petrodollar, westenize oil pipelines and secure oil fields for anglo-american investors thus they are theives.

It's that simple.

I would like to go further if poosible, i want the people who sell AK47's and Tomahawk crusie missiles to die too

The west went into the middle east to steal oil before ww1 kicked off and we haven't stopped fighting for their blackgold ever since - if you don't understand the geopolitical situation which exists alowing western interests to rob the rest of the world blind then really i suggest you study up, its really rather imporant if you're going to get into debate about the war. The reason that one corner of the world consumes far more resources than the rest of the world isn't an accident - nor is it luck or providence, its quite simply and very clearly theft.

When you talk of defending america it's not an actual threat against the good people of utah we're talking about - it's the interests of large multinational companies such as shell, total and lloyds. The worry is western economic dominance will be threatened, our access to and control of resources will be removed and rather than being an insanely opulent and powerful set of nations the western imperial nations will be little more than impotent beggers at the world stage.

Of course i should now argue that a far more effective stratagy would be to reduce spending on stupid wars, prohibitions and over the top police state activity and concentrate our impressive production potential on creating a sustainable way of life, distributed power generation, modern fule sources, local permaculture based high yeild farming solutions, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc

i would of course then go on to expound at length about how if we showed a willingness to make up and deal with the rest of the world on a fair footing then we would reduce the hatred felt towards the opulent west and thus reduce the desire to attack us... this would then make the world safer unlike the thugs pushing people around and occupying countrys for reasons they don't even begin to understand. Every bomb we drop or round we fire that hits someone innocent causes massive pain to the family, kids are brought up knowing nothing about their parents other than the oppressive opulent and immoral west killed them - that is where suicide bombers and real terrorists come from.

i won't bore you with it though because i'm sure you've though both sides of this debate out at length.........right?

as for whoever said the army guy would punch my teeth out, kinda reiterates my point about them being idiots right? They're supposed to be recruting me to the army and the second i raise an anti-war opinion they're going to smash me up? haha geeze yeah that's really going to change my mind out the moral issues involved. Oh and actually like i said any of the army people i have spoken to, certainly the recruters, have been polite and kind never once getting physical - mostly theyre good people, i know that kinda goes against everything i've said, i even have friends in the army and i tell them this stuff too,they're even still my friends they're that good people!

How can i possibly rationalize this? simple, they are willing to kill or be involved in the killing of innocent people - just because i happen to know, and like, those people doesn't mean the i hope they manage to kill someone just because i don't know that person. If the defender and the attacker were both your friends then wouldn't you want the defender to win? wouldn't that seem right?

I'll add something else to the mix too, if my nation ever gets invaded then i will defend it and i'll obey all orders (or rather most orders- due to human rights / nuremburg) -last time i spoke to a recruiter (purely so i could have a go at the assalt course) we spoke about the defense only option and he actually said that he sorta aggrees with me but the world is too immoral to change it, maybe western imperialism is going to end and it'll be a good thing but before that happens he has to look after himself, his family and his countrymen. I have to say that i respect that, it's a logical and almost moral possition - i however think it's more important to change the way we think about life before it's too late, certainly a war as obviously about economic imperialism as the iraq afghan conflict should not be happening in our society in this day and age.

Originally posted by NatureBoy
All those people are responceable for the unlawful deaths of dozerns of innocent people - thus they are murderers.

I'm sure you have proof that everyone that has been deployed in the military personally caused the death of an unarmed innocent civilian. Seeing as how you keep saying they're all murderers I'm sure you have proof readily available, so lets see it. Only then will I be able to take your posts seriously.

reply to post by Jenna


what i am saying is either the army has never killed anyone at all during the recent conflicts OR everyone in the army is responsable for the killing which has happened, being unlawful and an act of aggression this i am calling murder.

The bombs can't fall unless the plane flys, the fule has to be put in and the mission planned, radar needs to be operated and troops need to be lulled back into a false sence of moral security (the job of the chaplins) - all these people create a combat effective army which can progect deadly force into other nations to steal their resources and dominate their economy and political situation. is that clearer?

did you get board with my post and stop reading or was that the only point you could come up with an argument for?

Originally posted by NatureBoy
everyone in the army, EVERYONE, is there to make sure the united states can field a powerfull force of deadly effectiveness - i'm sure you agree right?

All those people are responceable for the unlawful deaths of dozerns of innocent people - thus they are murderers.

I guess you never take into the account of the insurgents that decide that blowing up a car bomb in a marketplace crowded with women and children are the real murderers. How come that always seems to be the case on ATS? So much for "Deny Ignorance"

Oh, and for your education, we don't murder people in wartime. We kill them. There's a difference.

Originally posted by NatureBoy
The west went into the middle east to steal oil before ww1 kicked off and we haven't stopped fighting for their blackgold ever since - if you don't understand the geopolitical situation which exists alowing western interests to rob the rest of the world blind then really i suggest you study up, its really rather imporant if you're going to get into debate about the war. The reason that one corner of the world consumes far more resources than the rest of the world isn't an accident - nor is it luck or providence, its quite simply and very clearly theft.

Hmmm....well, I'm pretty sure that the Middle East has made a few bucks on the sale of their oil. How about when they decide to feed that wild hair that grows up their butt and cut production to drive up prices? Seems that both sides of the fence enjoys screwing each other over.

Originally posted by NatureBoy
When you talk of defending america....yak, yak, yak, words, words, words.....

i won't bore you with it though because i'm sure you've though both sides of this debate out at length.........right?

OK, OK, I get it. West=bad.

Originally posted by NatureBoy
as for whoever said the army guy would punch my teeth out, kinda reiterates my point about them being idiots right? They're supposed to be recruting me to the army and the second i raise an anti-war opinion they're going to smash me up? haha geeze yeah that's really going to change my mind out the moral issues involved. Oh and actually like i said any of the army people i have spoken to, certainly the recruters, have been polite and kind never once getting physical - mostly theyre good people, i know that kinda goes against everything i've said, i even have friends in the army and i tell them this stuff too,they're even still my friends they're that good people!

I said that. If you tell a recruiter that you don't agree with the war, the most they'll try to do is give their side of the story. If you go in there screaming they deserve to die, prepare to take a trip on the pain train.

Originally posted by NatureBoy
How can i possibly rationalize this? simple, they are willing to kill or be involved in the killing of innocent people -

Get a freakin' grip. Do you honestly think that troops are trained to shoot innocent people on purpose? Does it happen on occasion? Yes, it does. Is it intentional? No, it's not. Does the insurgents hide in the civilian population, hoping that the civilians will be killed in an airstrike or a raid? Yep, they sure do. Civilians dead just help their cause.

reply to post by NatureBoy


Nope, I read it. I just have trouble taking posts seriously that use massive generalizations with no proof whatsoever to back them up. Should I take this post to mean that you cannot back up your claim that every soldier is personally responsible for the death of innocent civilians?

reply to post by jerico65


insurgents? car bombs? we're talking about the reason america is killing people in the middle east...... what does the fact that other people sometimes kill people have to do with that?

how about going into court and saying 'im not really a theif, those guys who steal cars are the REAL criminals, i only steal handbags.' it won't wash.

i'm gonna bed now it pointless carrying on because no one on the prowar side of this debate is willing to actally debate my arguments, you guys just post the same thing again and hope i've forgotten what i said last time... Sure boil everything i say down to '....words, words, words' if you want and generalize my well thought out and rational opinion down to 'west = bad' - if it's all too complex for you then don't worry, go join the army and hopfully you snd plenty of your buddies will get killed and a few darwins later we'll be a better speiecs! (oh and btw/ yes a darwin is a unit of mesurement, google it)

reply to post by Jenna


The bombs can't fall unless the plane flys, the fule has to be put in and the mission planned, radar needs to be operated and troops need to be lulled back into a false sence of moral security (the job of the chaplins) - all these people create a combat effective army which can progect deadly force into other nations to steal their resources and dominate their economy and political situation. is that clearer?

this time i put it first because i'm starting to think you never get passed my first paragraph

Originally posted by jerico65
Oh, and for your education, we don't murder people in wartime. We kill them. There's a difference.

I'm amazed you let this one slip out. There is no existing difference, only the lines drawn up in your mind. I knew there was something wrong with you when you were talking about avenging 9/11 victims. Whatever makes you feel proud and sleep at night...