I'm pretty tired of skeptics who are unable to think outside the box.

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed

Originally posted by Brainiac
reply to post by pteridine

 

"No one knows the sources of the UFO's; aliens, reverse engineered alien technology, or advanced human technology. All are possibilities and all are not exclusive."


Heh, do you realize you just stated that something exists where there has been no concrete proof of the fact you claim?

Instead you might try thinking with a more rational mind. There is a big difference between an open mind, and an irrational mind.

An open minded individual would be "open" to the "possibility" of Alien life existing, but an open mined individual would "not" state that in "fact" there are Aliens and Ufos and we just don't know the sources of them...

For instance. I personally believe that there is a possibility that there are other life forms existing on another planet. Look at Humans, we are proof that advanced life can exist, and in fact we are proof that worlds can sustain and support life and allow it to develop technology to actually leave a planet.

[edit on 9/21/2009 by Brainiac]

This is the heart of the problem, denying the reality of UFOs. It's gone beyond hearsay reports, the evidence is in the number of individuals who have witnessed non-human aerial phenomena. I've had 5 or 6 solid sightings and I videotaped one. No one, not anymore, is going to tell me that UFOs are not real. Aside from witness testimony, which I'm aware is meaningless without evidence but numbers do have a certain weight, there are the millions of photos/emulsion films/videos of things that no one on earth can claim ownership to.

All we are able to make are heavy metal things that once they lose power just plummet to earth killing almost all aboard. I do not accept any claim (without evidence, of course) that our or any government has any UFOs in storage and that they are back-engineering, etc. Nothing that is made by humans reflects any knowledge other than what's been developed through hard work.

I do not state that there are aliens, although we have to take into consideration what or who is piloting these exotic aerial craft and it sure as hell ain't humans!

I'm an open-minded individual AND I've had sighting of non-human craft! So there.

"the evidence is in the number of individuals who have witnessed non-human aerial phenomena."

Evidence. Yes, but as you stated what evidence do you have that the aerial phenomena you've witnessed was indeed "not human" in origin?

You've got to give it to scientific thinking that you need empirical evidence to support a basis of reasoning. Otherwise we might as well just believe that everything we see is exactly how "WE" see it... The probability for error here is just bad science...



[edit on 9/21/2009 by Brainiac]

reply to post by pteridine


Yes, but here is the problem with that process of thinking. You're already convinced that we are being visited by Extraterrestrial Craft. So your point of view is favoring that every topic pertaining to a UFO sighting, is flawless. You can't really argue the point if someone has convinced themselves that YES indeed there are craft so unusual and so not like anything else seen, or described that this must be Alien in origin.

The fact that it's a UFO also means that it has just as equal a possiblity to NOT be of Alien origin...

So I don't see how you get any closer to finding out about all those mysterious flying objects.

reply to post by pteridine


Oh and I did read your post, I would not make a reply if I hadn't. The first part of your post really did not help to provide proof or valid identity to anything flying around in the sky, that is unusual. That's why I only focused on what YOU really thought.

I only saw that you really believe that UFO's come from some place other than Earth.

My whole point is that as far as the eye can see aided and unaided, all the activity centers around our Planet. The very same planet that contains hundreds of millions of vehicles of all variety known and secretly unknown...

When you look through a telescope and when we travel even to the other planets in our solar system, we see nothing "unnatural" occuring...

It's like sitting on an Ant hill and feeling something crawling on your skin, what's it more likely to be an ANT? or a SPIDER?

reply to post by Pathos


Ah hah, good post!

this is so true...

Unless you have SuperVision, you can't make out the details of anything 1000's of feet away from you... A plane at 10,000 feet looks like a plane, but a plane at 50,000 feet looks like? A fuzzy orb of light, it all depends on the conditions, the light, etc...



Then we don't even want to begin to start on night time sightings... You can barely make out the shape of a car at night, and people want to believe that they are seeing Aliens flying in Space Craft, I can't accept that conjecture.

This even gets more ridiculous, when you contemplate the possiblity of an Alien Craft being here. I'm sure they would NOT need to use any sort of light emitting technology. WE use radar and sonar for navigation for example, yet we can barely survive away from our planet.

Why would an Alien Craft need or use Navigation lights/anti-collision lights? Or emit any light for that matter.

There are just so many questions that open up in regards to this subject.


[edit on 9/22/2009 by Brainiac]

Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar
reply to post by Skeptical Ed

 

In a see of madness, a sane man named Skeptical Ed emerges...

Thanks Ed for that reply. And know that I meant no offense at all, and I absolutely wondrously thank you for your actual skepticism, and your outlook (which accords to the Scientific Method) expressed in your posts here at ATS.

Welcome to my friends list

I'm glad to have you here working with us to deny ingnorance

You might find the BOLA case of interest (linked in my sig line) or the Kecksburg Event (currently on the Main Page for the UFOs/Aliens forum).

I would welcome your comments in either investigation!

-WFA

Whew! Now I have to live up to that! To my wife, though, I'm still the Original Mad Man, before the series came out! I used to pull legs by signing my name and adding D.O.M. after it and I would get replies addressing me as such. D.O.M. stood for Doctor Of Madness!

Seriously, though, thanks so much for your kind words. Sometimes I come across as a hardon but it's only because the majority of individuals I come into contact with are just too lazy mentally and they don't want their bubble burst. They don't know that I burst my own bubble a ton of years ago. Even though you could say that I was influenced by people such as Carl Sagan, Joe Nickell (CSICOP), and many others plus my training into hypnosis which opened up my mind to the way people are mentally-conditioned without their being aware of it.

I love a mystery as well as the next guy and there are many unexplainable things which really make me wonder. But I survive in this world by just using logic, common sense, and reason and tons of research of as many viewpoints as I can find. I'm honored to be on your friends' list.

I'm familiar with BOLA and while writing this I copied a big photo of the object being illuminated by 8 searchlights and tried to process it with Picasa. All I could do was remove some of the brightness and the shape being illuminated looks like a "classic" UFO but I couldn't get a clear, sharp image. I saw in the past that someone had processed the photo removing almost all of the searchlights and ended up with, again, a "classic" UFO shape. All of that ammunition and nothing was reported downed!

As far as the Kecksburg, I'll have to side with Jim Oberg's explanation or similar explanations that it was a Russian Venus probe (Kosmos 96) since some of the reports by "witnesses" said it was acorn-shaped and the lettering could have been Russian cyrillic which I don't think the locals were familiar with just like the characters on the "beams" found after the Roswell descent which, for some reason, were not recognized and yet they were simple designs. However, with Roswell, I feel a lot of bs was trying to be sold and the "foreign" characters on the beams was a sell job.

Originally posted by Pathos
reply to post by Brainiac

 

I agree.

Quick exercise for everyone. If you want to think 'outside of the box', walk out into the middle of a large field. Make sure there are large bulky clouds, which seem like massive obstructions. While looking at the clouds casually, notice the proportion of them in relation to others. Also observe the distance between the bottoms and tops of the clouds. Observe the light relationships, which range from sunlight to dark. After you analyzed the clouds closely, allow your eye to change the shape of the blue sky into a dome. Now, look at the cloud again.

If you are able to see the clouds hanging within a snow globe shape, you will be taking your first steps in being more perceptive. You will soon realize that it is impossible for anyone standing on the ground to 'definitively' say they saw a 'alien made UFO'. Its impossible.

Cell-phone cameras cannot capture clear images beyond a few feet. Camcorders cannot capture clear images beyond a few miles. Even though you can own the most advanced video technology available to the public, it cannot get a clear shot at an object that is more than three miles away. You can see an object as a spot in the sky; however, you will never-ever be able to capture an airplane beyond three miles in detail.

Between the Earth's surface and the ISS space station, there is approximately 199 to 215 miles of atmosphere.

[edit on 21-9-2009 by Pathos]

You know, Pathos, the world you perceive is not necessarily the same the rest of the world perceives. You make some errors in your thinking as expressed above.

What I've seen will pass muster for non-human made aerial objects. Humans have not made aerial objects that can disguise themselves as stars, plant themselves in the sky fooling observers into thinking they're stars and then have these "stars" haul ass from a standing start! Similar scenes have been shown from space by astronauts and cameras fastened to shuttles. With the exception of dirigibles and helicopters all other human aircraft require some aerodynamic shape. I've seen what are called round flying probes but these are toy-size contraptions that cannot do what UFOs can. I could go on on this but I'm sold on UFOs being non-human craft.

For your information, cell phone cameras are up to and above 5 megapixels (Sony Ericsson CyberShot 12MP camera phone) and they can provide unbelievable resolution. Ask my brother-in-law a retired award-winning professional photographer who uses one of these sophisticated cell phones.

One may not be able to capture an airplane beyond 3 miles in detail but I can tell you that the wings will be visible!

You ought to get out more and stop paying attention to the clouds. Look between the clouds to see the objects that have been seen and videotaped in clear detail and close enough to show shapes that are not manufactured by humans. And never mind the Nazi UFO myth.

Originally posted by masonicon

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by kleverone

 

Could you imagine a world without skeptics? It'd be hellish, people would be running around believing in all sorts of wild things. Grown men would be leaving offerings to the Easter Bunny believing it real, sailors would still be afraid to fall off the flat Earth, superstition and ignorance would rule the day.

Most good skeptics are willing to believe if the item in question is proven or shown to be theoretically within the realm of possibility (under the rules of the Universe as we understand them so far). Some of them, like you said, are arrogant and seem pompous, these I like to call Psuedo-Skeptics, the so-called professional debunkers (like Joe Nickell) who scoff at believers and will explain away anything and everything with a wave of their hand or will resort to tearing down the credibility of the witnesses no matter how expert the witness (I've seen military UFO witnesses on CNN get called liars

)

But in truth we need skeptics, if everyone agreed on everything, especially without proof, the world would be a much weirder place...

What's happen if everyone is Skeptics?

Religion couldn't exist!

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Pathos
Cell-phone cameras cannot capture clear images beyond a few feet. Camcorders cannot capture clear images beyond a few miles. Even though you can own the most advanced video technology available to the public, it cannot get a clear shot at an object that is more than three miles away. You can see an object as a spot in the sky; however, you will never-ever be able to capture an airplane beyond three miles in detail.

Pathos my friend, while I agree in general with the point you are trying to make, I felt compelled to correct you on the minor details, like never say never, as in "you will never-ever be able to capture an airplane beyond three miles in detail". How about a qualifier like "most people will never do that"?

www.airliners.net...(F)/1526441/L/

Flying over Abruzzo during sunset. Photo taken with a telescope. 3000 mm focal length. The plane was about 15 - 20 km away.

While it says it's only 15-20km away, for some reason, it looks farther???

Actually I think this has to qualify as one of the most amazing photos ever taken, most people will never achieve this kind of result.

But if everyone would just go out and get a 3000mm focal length telescope lens (and a tripod, it won't work without that), we just might get some decent UFO photos! The problem is they're not very cheap or portable.

[edit on 21-9-2009 by Arbitrageur]

Better yet, stay compact: "At the Consumer Electronics Show here in Las Vegas today, Panasonic announced three new standard-definition camcorders that, at the time of the announcement, set a new bar for optical-zoom range on a video camera. The Panasonic SDR-H80, SDR-H90, and SDR-S26 all feature a 70X optical zoom lens and will be available in April." 70X optical zoom! I thought that my camcorder with 20X optical zoom was the cat's meow and I was able to zoom in on a UFO with it but it didn't capture the kind of detail that 70 times will!

to OP:

you'll get my start and flag for the effort. I've walked this road many the time and it usually ends up like something in my signature, thanks for that one Savior Complex a.k.a Gawdzilla.

=)

Originally posted by Brainiac
reply to post by pteridine

 

Oh and I did read your post, I would not make a reply if I hadn't. The first part of your post really did not help to provide proof or valid identity to anything flying around in the sky, that is unusual. That's why I only focused on what YOU really thought.

I only saw that you really believe that UFO's come from some place other than Earth.

My whole point is that as far as the eye can see aided and unaided, all the activity centers around our Planet. The very same planet that contains hundreds of millions of vehicles of all variety known and secretly unknown...

When you look through a telescope and when we travel even to the other planets in our solar system, we see nothing "unnatural" occuring...

It's like sitting on an Ant hill and feeling something crawling on your skin, what's it more likely to be an ANT? or a SPIDER?

I don't know if the following could be a counter-argument to your comment: "When you look through a telescope and when we travel even to the other planets in our solar system, we see nothing "unnatural" occuring..." We have film from Lunar explorations showing UFOs hauling over the Lunar surface. We have videotapes of the moon shot through teleescopes showing shapes and shadows flying over the Lunar surface.
Tons of videos shot from the shuttles showing "strange" aircraft.

Originally posted by Brainiac
reply to post by Pathos

 

Ah hah, good post!

this is so true...

Unless you have SuperVision, you can't make out the details of anything 1000's of feet away from you... A plane at 10,000 feet looks like a plane, but a plane at 50,000 feet looks like? A fuzzy orb of light, it all depends on the conditions, the light, etc...

Then we don't even want to begin to start on night time sightings... You can barely make out the shape of a car at night, and people want to believe that they are seeing Aliens flying in Space Craft, I can't accept that conjecture.

This even gets more ridiculous, when you contemplate the possiblity of an Alien Craft being here. I'm sure they would NOT need to use any sort of light emitting technology. WE use radar and sonar for navigation for example, yet we can barely survive away from our planet.

Why would an Alien Craft need or use Navigation lights/anti-collision lights? Or emit any light for that matter.

There are just so many questions that open up in regards to this subject.


[edit on 9/22/2009 by Brainiac]

I have a DVD sent to me by Jeff Challender shortly before he died. From his backyard he videotaped a night "UFO" doing aerial maneuvers that human aircraft cannot do such as angled turns. The video lasts a long time. In the video: "The Secret NASA Transmissions: The Smoking Gun" there is footage of a craft in space making an angled turn.

reply to post by Skeptical Ed


Agreed Ed and Arby!

I use a meade ETX90. I have to say that's amazing. I have to use my lowest power eyepiece to see the whole moon all at once .

My scope was about $750.00 when it was new, which is pricey, but something I could save up for. It came with a tripod (nice rugged one...), but the best part is that the scope itself is detachable from the tripod, and can fit into a small backpack. It has it's control computer connected to the scope, and can run off of batteries (if you want to use autotracking, etc.) And it stands on its own, on three small rubber feet, without the tripod.

It has daytime filter coatings on the scope, for daylight viewing (still nobody should EVER look at the sun...) but you can get amazingly clear images from VERY far away. For example, from a hilltop in San Diego, I could see the looks on the faces of hang gliders all the way above Encinitas...

The scope has a directional adjustment lever, to change the focal path from going to the eyepiece, to going straight out the back of the scope. There, you can attach a 35mm camera (digital or old school) with an E Ring adapter (these are about $60.00 USD, unless you make your own adapter ring...).

Likewise, before I could afford my current scope, I built my own Dobsonian Newtonian Reflector. It was a 4.5 inch diameter primary, and I built it out of a sonotube. It pivoted on an old record (LP), I think it was The Who's 'Tommy' LOL. At any rate, the point on that scope is that you can build your own powerful telescope (tripod/stand and all) for under $200.00 (my primary mirror was on sale for $75.00, and you can make your own if you are patient and a good craftsman...).

Here are some plans for those interested in increasing their ability to view the heavens:
pages.sbcglobal.net...

-WFA

A little primer on open-mindedness and "thinking outside the box"...



[edit on 22-9-2009 by DoomsdayRex]

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
A little primer on open-mindedness and "thinking outside the box"...

[edit on 22-9-2009 by DoomsdayRex]

A slight correction to your "little" primer and I don't know if anyone will agree but my POV comes from learning this, especially after becoming a hypnotist.

As an atheist and (open-minded) skeptic, I don't have a belief system; I don't believe. I either know or don't know. Belief is the result of mental conditioning. Before knowing there is unknowing. Those who believe there are UFOs haven't had a clear and detailed sighting because after such a sighting you know they exist. Only those that have not had a sighting and accept hearsay, believe because they've convinced themselves that what others say is true.

This is why religions exist.

reply to post by Brainiac


Brainiac,
Why bother stopping there. If science-fiction writers can creatively conceive transporters, lap-tops, and cell-phones in the 1960s, an advanced alien species would have developed some type of cloak or transporter system by now. According to several UFO theorists, aliens have been visiting Earth since the dawn of man. Your telling me that in all of that time they didn't evolve technologically? Gene-Roddenberry's inventions (cell-phone and lap-tops) have not only come into existence, but they are more advanced then their counterparts. It took us only 100 to 200 years to evolve technology into what it is today. Advanced alien civilizations would not need to enter into Earth's atmosphere. All they have to do is park somewhere very far away, and then use a transporter to beam onto the surface.

Alien made UFOs entering Earth's atmosphere is just junk. Do not get me started on how bogus abduction cases are. That is why I keep saying - You need "absolute proof" to convince skeptics (such as ourselves) in believing alien made UFOs have been entering our atmosphere.

...and they blame us (the skeptics) for not thinking outside of the box.


Also, why do alien cases have them running around nude and without gentiles? That is full of crap. Would they not need to worry about human viruses, which continue to evolve from one generation to the next? How do they prepare for rainy days and snow? Oh, that is right. Its all about the nude alien conspiracy, which someone walks away with a funny feeling in the behind. Talk about ridiculous.












[edit on 22-9-2009 by Pathos]

Originally posted by Pathos
That is why I keep saying - You need "absolute proof" to convince skeptics (such as ourselves)

And that is why true skeptics keep telling you that using the terms 'absolute proof' makes you a pseudo-skeptic

-WFA



_______________________________________________________
Edited to Add:

OMG I almost forgot! Sorry ATS Skeptics who are playing the game...

Here is a new link to the Scientific Method (which still to date does not mention 'Absolute proof'):
biology.clc.uc.edu...

That one even has an easy experiment we can all do at home!!! LOL

Everyone playing the game can now take a drink

-WFA

[edit on 22-9-2009 by WitnessFromAfar]

reply to post by Pathos


["You need "absolute proof" to convince skeptics (such as ourselves) in believing alien made UFOs have been entering our atmosphere."]

How about not entering our atmosphere but above it?

How do you feel about NASA footage of UFOs fleeting over the lunar surface, one in particular going in the opposite direction of an approaching lunar lander? How about filmed flashes from craters and were not talking reflective surfaces? How do you feel about watching shuttle cameras zooming in on objects at a distance? Or from the shuttle tracking, for the longest time, a hauling UFO? Or...

Most skeptics think that Aliens dont exists due to the fact ''Their isn't enough evidence to prove that their is life outside our World''. CLEARLY their is enough evidence to prove it, theirs leaks in the Government, theirs documents, pictures, videos, recordings etc. of Extraterrestrial related subjects.

I think that some skeptics are just snobby pr*cks who think that use Humans are in some way special to the universe, or their just afraid to consider the fact that their is life out side our world and that they have obviously visited use numerous times.

Most skeptics just need a good kick in the head to set them straight, maybe a more effective way is for them to actually see a UFO or Alien.

Hopefully we'll have a visit from thousands of Aliens at once ! Just as long as they don't take hostile action against use and start killing people....that would suck...

Originally posted by Jordan_The_Maori
Most skeptics think that Aliens dont exists due to the fact ''Their isn't enough evidence to prove that their is life outside our World''.

Please provide evidence for this. Show us where most skeptics on this board has expressed such sentiments.

Originally posted by Jordan_The_Maori
I think that some skeptics are just snobby pr*cks...

You are doing nothing but rehearsing your own prejudices.

[edit on 23-9-2009 by DoomsdayRex]

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed

How about not entering our atmosphere but above it?

How do you feel about NASA footage of UFOs fleeting over the lunar surface, one in particular going in the opposite direction of an approaching lunar lander? How about filmed flashes from craters and were not talking reflective surfaces? How do you feel about watching shuttle cameras zooming in on objects at a distance? Or from the shuttle tracking, for the longest time, a hauling UFO? Or...

I have only seen two films by NASA, which raises more questions about Earth itself. Before I would make any conclusion about alien visitations, the first questions we need to answer include: (1) Is Earth based life limited to the sky, surface, oceans, and caves? How about orbit? (2) How do meteors and man made settle-lights behave? (3) What about the 19,000+ pieces of space junk in orbit? (4) What happens to space junk when they collide? (4) Could there be something about our weather patterns, which causes some sort of discharge.

Out of all the questions above, the first one on the list has yet to be answered.

www.youtube.com...






[edit on 23-9-2009 by Pathos]